No one puts in more work on the field then Mata in our current squad, Mata run on avarage 400 meters more then Herrera per 90 min played.
Fans are turning on Ole faster than they did on Moyes, LVG and Jose
- Thread starter Sir Scott McToMinay
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Well, at this point we just have to assume there's a bigger picture. Mata certainly isn't a player I'd fight nail and tooth to keep myself, but the fact is that we won't realistically ship out every player in this team who can be upgraded/has been underwhelming.
His first step will almost certainly end with a number of currently unpopular figures remaining at Old Trafford. As I see it, we need upgrades in several positions - starters, I'd say - and if he succeeds in bringing those in I'll give him the benefit of the doubt with regard to backups/squad players. If he's got Mata in mind for a key part, I'll be the first to admit that's extremely worrying - but we're not there yet.
Same goes for Young and several others.
I've said this before, but it's not easy to assess squad players in a dysfunctional team. There are past players at United who would've been savaged just as badly as your Matas and Lingards if they'd appeared in a similar context.
That is probably the thing that gets me quite a bit. My Liverpool and Chelsea supporting friends were over the moon when Ole was made official. One less team to worry about for next few years and this was when he had the best record in the league.
The issue right now is that some of our fans still believe that our failure over the last 6 years is primarily attributed to the managers and thus a new managerial appointment is all that is needed to provide instant turnaround.
Thus when Ole performed extraordinarily in the first 3 months, they felt vindicated. However, now that the team is not performing well it is again the fault of the manager.
If Poch was appointed the manager and didn’t produce instantaneously the reaction would be same. All this talk about tactics, identity, attacking play is a front for what they really care about, the results. No transformation, when viewed in the middle, appears pretty. People in charge need to trust their manager’s vision and back his vision to completion. Unfortunately, what we have right now is a board who is swayed with fans opinions and the short term financial impact that is created as a result of fans disgruntlement.
Thus when Ole performed extraordinarily in the first 3 months, they felt vindicated. However, now that the team is not performing well it is again the fault of the manager.
If Poch was appointed the manager and didn’t produce instantaneously the reaction would be same. All this talk about tactics, identity, attacking play is a front for what they really care about, the results. No transformation, when viewed in the middle, appears pretty. People in charge need to trust their manager’s vision and back his vision to completion. Unfortunately, what we have right now is a board who is swayed with fans opinions and the short term financial impact that is created as a result of fans disgruntlement.
Unless we win every game 6-0 and have 95% of the possession in all games, play scintillating football for the whole 90+ minutes in each game (home or away), beat all of the top clubs home and away etc.… then SOME fans will demand Ole's head... it was ever thus!
And? Is much of it actually effective? Lingard runs as well and the vast majority of it is ineffective.
If we keep both Mata & Herrera that's the guts of 20m plus in wages, basically the foundations of a transfer for a player like Neves who has greater upside than Mata or Herrera.
Should I put up a points total/net spend/total spend comparison between the top 6 clubs? Or is it unworthwhile because it's that damn obvious that Poch has done a superb job?
However: Despite this, if I were a United fan, I would be reluctant for Poch to be your manager for two reasons:
1) His style of play seems to have devolved from a few years ago. I think it was the 2015/16 and 16/17 seasons where his teams played with a swagger they simply don't have today. And:
2) His biggest money signings haven't really worked out. He's great with youth and seems to be an excellent coach. But I'm not sure I'd trust him with big money given his record with big money signings - which he'll obviously be expected to deliver with you.
Stupid reasons that fans usually bring up such as lack of silverware need to be put into context, but spoilt fans often have no concept of how there are a finite number of trophies and the massive correlation between affluence and the height of a clubs glass ceiling.
What big signings?
His biggest transfer to date is Davison Sanchez who is a decent player and still only 22. There is room for improvement with him.
Sissoko is the one strike against him for a big fee.
After that its Son, who is absolutely superb. Arguably the best left sided attacker in the league or at worst 2nd best.
Lucas has been a very nice bit of business for them as well.
So 3 outta for ain't bad, a bitter hit rate than Jose could muster.
Look at the Everton game and see what happens when we don't have anyone willing to run. Also we don't need Neves, we got Fred, who also runs more then Herrera from a deeper position.
Solskjaer have identified our fitness as a major weakens, so it makes sense to keep the players that actually put forth the effort. Solskjaer was also the player alongside Beckham who put in the most work on field during his heyday. Currently Manchester United is ranked 20 in the Premier League amongst the hardest working teams, we are the absolute worst at what we are supposed to be the best at.
So yes, keeping Mata makes sense, as him alongside Lingard and Fred are the ones actually putting in the work required to be a Manchester United player.
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First of all I never said Poch was failing, just pointing out that he has not done as well as some on here think he should have done with the players he has at his disposal. I am in no doubt he is a good manager but that alone does not mean he would be a good fit for us. What I am saying is that after several years at Spurs he has won nothing yet although this season is his best so far and he could still win the European cup, just about possible.
The problem is that so many people expect instant success at Utd. and as someone who has watched Utd for over sixty years I can tell you it just does not happen. Even SAF was here six or seven seasons before success started and some of the stuff he produced in that period was awful. Also, don't forget we are in a different league now where so many teams have various amounts of wealth at their disposal. Some of them have almost unlimited funds only mildly controlled by the financial regulations set by the authorities.
Finally, it is universally agreed that we have been a disaster since Fergie left but no one can lay the blame for that at Ole's feet. He must be given time to show his ability to build a team and make it successful or we will continue to be as we are now forever. Instant success is like a miracle, it does not happen often. Even city's has taken at least seven years to get to the commanding level they are now at ( also going through an assortment of managers ) plus Klopp was a laughing stock for a couple of seasons. Be patient.
The problem is that so many people expect instant success at Utd. and as someone who has watched Utd for over sixty years I can tell you it just does not happen. Even SAF was here six or seven seasons before success started and some of the stuff he produced in that period was awful. Also, don't forget we are in a different league now where so many teams have various amounts of wealth at their disposal. Some of them have almost unlimited funds only mildly controlled by the financial regulations set by the authorities.
Finally, it is universally agreed that we have been a disaster since Fergie left but no one can lay the blame for that at Ole's feet. He must be given time to show his ability to build a team and make it successful or we will continue to be as we are now forever. Instant success is like a miracle, it does not happen often. Even city's has taken at least seven years to get to the commanding level they are now at ( also going through an assortment of managers ) plus Klopp was a laughing stock for a couple of seasons. Be patient.
No, it's 2 out of 4 until Sanchez proves otherwise. Another problem with fans on here: Too much stock in 'potential' - ignoring the fact that the majority of the time players with this supposed potential do not live up to it.What big signings?
His biggest transfer to date is Davison Sanchez who is a decent player and still only 22. There is room for improvement with him.
Sissoko is the one strike against him for a big fee.
After that its Son, who is absolutely superb. Arguably the best left sided attacker in the league or at worst 2nd best.
Lucas has been a very nice bit of business for them as well.
So 3 outta for ain't bad, a bitter hit rate than Jose could muster.
I'm not saying we don't need runners, we do. But they have to be effective and I don't see Mata having great impacts on games consistently enough. He's 31 as I say and there is only one way to go from that age in the majority of instances, a decline. Every poster if asked and answers honestly, do they see improvement with Mata would surely answer no.
I've nothing against Fred, he could turn out to be a very good player for us but if both Mata and Herrera are out there door we need to invest in at least 1 CM.
A midfield for next season made up of
Matic / Neves
Fred / McTominay
Pogba / Lingard (as much as I think he is utterly useless, he is slightly more effective in the middle). Arguably another CM signing as well (Rice, Fernandes?)
Garner & Gribbin are 2 others that could be promoted and played more next season in some of the Europa games as well.
That midfield fills me with far more excitement for our future as a club than retaining Herrera & Mata or even 1 of them. It would tell me instantly Ole really wants to change our team.
Debatable. I think at worst he's a very good squad option for them myself anyway.
I think its a case of just having to wait for next season as the CB partnership of Toby and Jan is generally quite good but there's also signs its possibly starting to decline this year with so many goals being leaked. At 30 & 32 it's possibly the legs are starting to go.
Wouldn't be surprised to see him step up and take one of their spots.
It's ridiculous getting on Ole's back already. Our major problem imo apart from players who bottle it etc Its fitness i think. When Ole came in the high pressing fast paced tempo we played could only last so long because of the crap preseason we had with Mourinho. 2 managers who play completely different styles. A good preseason without injury and the obvious investment we need should help us massively.
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I remember people saying fans wont turn on him. But if cafe is the norm it sure as hell happened quickly. Many think our biggest problem is a manager and when that changes all will be good. It's not just the manager its the board giving the manager money and player he needs. Ole is already getting stick and people are predicting him being gone next season. Not to mention daft comparisons with darling Poch who has like 13 defeats in the league. But no, he has injuries and didnt have any transfers so that's a good excuse. Ole on the other hand doesn't get any excuses and he suddenly looks out of his depth apparently. This season isnt even over and the camp who wants him out is growing by the number. Soon the nicknames and all out bashing will start so Ole the legend wont only have fans turn on him but his status tarnished by the impatient fans who just want a new manager and wont give the current one even the slightest chance.
What are you on about? I was refuting the point that he's a puppet, something that is impossible to tell at this point in time.
Ole should hire you as his spokesman since you're an expert on what needs to be said at all times.
Don't worry, it isn't.
Hope so.
A Glazer yes man who was the only player in the squad who had the balls to criticise them when they took over...
Well thank feck the caf isn't the norm then.
Love when someone writes a load of absolute drivel and claims it's an absolute truth. Glazer puppet.
You have hit the nail on the head. We have been winning too many games just 5-0.
Moyes is a clown and was out of depth here. But one thing, maybe only thing where he was right is his transfer targets. He wanted midfield playmaker( Kroos or Fabregas) and right winger( Bale).
Yes, it is funny. ..........because it is trueLove when someone writes a load of absolute drivel and claims it's an absolute truth. Glazer puppet.
CAF isn't representative of the match going fanbase. The match going fanbase would be loyal to Moyes if he had us in the championship now.
The CAF however is representative of the world wide fanbase in general. Now Woodward and the other powers at the club do care about their opinion.
In saying that most people are just pointing out that Ole is a risk taken just due to a romantic notion and hasn't shown anything so far that he can get us out of this mess. He might well do but pointing it out isn't turning on him.
Great to hear the real fans singing ole songs (and well before we scored) just shows the red cafe moaners do not represent the real fans views. Reading this forum can seriously effect the reality of a situation.
True. The problem is that while the match going fans are still the primary revenue contributors, the revenue contribution from the other fans is growing rapidly. For a club obsessed with maximising the monetisation potential of the global fan base, their voice through social media, forums etc. will be keenly monitored and would influence the decision making of the board.
That's what you'd like to think but let's see what makes more of a statement to the brass: an empty stadium due to fan discontent or Kaushal from Calcutta moaning because Ole hasn't played Lukaku?
I mean, it would probably be extremely helpful if the players in the club were: A) Capable of performing in any system forwarded to them B) Doesnt disappear for long stretches of time C) Don't give away several games (De Gea)
Well if that is true then this club will remain in the shitter. We have seen the match going fans to have zero standards and blind faith in every manager. They would cheer this team to the championship. While Real Madrid's fans standards mean they boo players like Ronaldo, Marcelo and modric when they are not up to scratch.
Why will the board change their ways when they can see the fans are happy with 6th.
Throw him a life buoy, because he is in way too deep...
I think reality is setting in that we are screwed, doesn’t matter who the manager is there is no way anyone sorts this mess out short term. It will probably take small improvements from 2-3 or quite probably more managers to sort out what has been years in the making.
They also sang for Moyes.
I like Ole however, but fans singing in the stadium doesn't show much at OT, they sing for all the managers, even the shite ones.
Hate the fact that I'm starting to feel sorry for him when I see him nonplussed on the bench.
I'm actually starting to think that firing Mourinho was a bad idea. Reading the Cafe is blowing my mind!
Maybe if he hadn't thrown his typical third season temper tantrum.
I have an issue with breaking up projects. Van Gaal was fired after winning the Fa Cup! With Mourinho, it was just easier to keep going with a project already in it's third season than to start all over again...
History is where we learn how to navigate the future.
Likewise, we've seen the online fan be increasingly toxic towards any manager we've had, irrespective of league position.
Real's fanbase are an absolute joke, who only support them when they're winning, with attendances dropping this season to 40-50k, so I'm not sure why you see fit to point to them. Being compared to that scummy lot is an insult.
Also Perez would have done a major rebuild irrespective of what the fans felt. This is the guy who sacked Del Bosque even after he won the double.
You are mistaken in thinking that supporting the club through hard times is a sign of acceptance. We know it's shit, but there is very little you, or I, can do about it. The main thing is to support the team and hope that the penny finally drops for those at the top. It will eventually, and when it does, the good times will be all the more sweeter for it. Acting a cnut when times are bad serves nothing to one and if you do, you're more than welcome to leave, cos "support" like yours is what the club can do without.
If Ole didn’t have history here as a player he would get the same treatment as Moyes, people mix their feelings for the player and the manager.
He is clearly not up to the standard, enough of his “United way, and Sir Alex used to do” bullshit. We should sack him.
He is clearly not up to the standard, enough of his “United way, and Sir Alex used to do” bullshit. We should sack him.