Fabregas to Barcelona!

Danny1982 said:
First, you have to quote RedRover and not me when talking about potential..


Second, see that's where I disagree with you. Fabregas is a very good player, but the way you are making him in the "top 3" in the whole world (obviously beside Xavi and Iniesta), I just can't agree there, I don't think he has done enough to prove it. He "could" be in the top 3 or the top 1 in the future, that CAN happen, but now he isn't in my opinion. Not yet. Especially with his recurrent injuries.. And in all honesty, I won't buy him for United for more than 35 million euros. We don't need a third Owen who is that expensive.
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You seem to totally misunderstand and point I make about potential. He is already a class act, and will probably get even better as he gets towards his peak, as most players do.

By the way - I´m not having your insistance that he´s always crocked. In the paper this morning it gave so stats - since 2004 he´s played over 250 games for Arsenal and missed just over 50, so that blows your suggestion that he´s always injured clean out of the water.

My question is - who is better in his position? Xavi and Iniesta certainly, Sneijder maybe (although he arguabley plays a different position) - I´d be interested to hear your opinions.

For me the most pertinant fact is that he would probably walk into any midfield bar the club he´s probably going to join. I´d say that tells you all you need to know about his ability and value as a footballer.
 
redrover said:
by the way - i´m not having your insistance that he´s always crocked. In the paper this morning it gave so stats - since 2004 he´s played over 250 games for arsenal and missed just over 50, so that blows your suggestion that he´s always injured clean out of the water.
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The breakdown of that;

Season Apps
2004–05 46
2005–06 50
2006–07 54
2007–08 45
2008–09 33
2009–10 36
2010–11 35

Notice anything about the number of games?
 
RedRover said:
You seem to totally misunderstand and point I make about potential. He is already a class act, and will probably get even better as he gets towards his peak, as most players do.

By the way - I´m not having your insistance that he´s always crocked. In the paper this morning it gave so stats - since 2004 he´s played over 250 games for Arsenal and missed just over 50, so that blows your suggestion that he´s always injured clean out of the water.

My question is - who is better in his position? Xavi and Iniesta certainly, Sneijder maybe (although he arguable plays a different position) - I´d be interested to hear your opinions.

For me the most pertinant fact is that he would probably walk into any midfield bar the clubs he´s probably going to join. I´d say that thells you all you need to know about his ability and value as a footballer.
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He pulled his hamstring 6 times in the last 15 months. I'm not saying his career is over, but anybody signing him should take this point seriously before splashing big cash on him. Also his injury problems started 2 years ago, and worsened last year, so stats dated back to 2004 is irrelevant here.. He started 22/38 games for Arsenal in the league last season due to multiple injuries.. Not impressive to say the least.

Apart from that, he is without a doubt a quality player, BUT he still can't boss the midfield like Xavi and Iniesta do for example, especially in the big games. He contributes to the team like Sneijder does to Inter, or Modric to Tottenham, or Lampard to Chelsea and Gerrard to Liverpool (probably two years ago)...etc., which is a lot, but "the best in the world" (after Xavi and Iniesta)? I don't know, just can't see it in black and white.. And by the way, I'm not saying that those players are better than him, but I can't see how you can prove that he is better than them, or contribute more to the team.

When you take all that into consideration, it's not easy to splash big cash on him ala Kaka.. For 35 million euros, I'd say it's worth the risk, but when people start talking about 55 million euros, I just have to disagree. He is not worth that money in July 2011, in my opinion.
 
Dion said:
The breakdown of that;

Season Apps
2004–05 46
2005–06 50
2006–07 54
2007–08 45
2008–09 33
2009–10 36
2010–11 35

Notice anything about the number of games?
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In the last 7 years Rooney's played 217 league games and Fabregas 211. I guess Rooney's a crock and not worth £50M either.
 
When was the last time Xavi or Iniesta bossed a midfield without the other against a top side?
 
Things like broken bones is just pure bad luck however with his hamstring issues most of the problem is down to the club due to the fact we rush him back every time due to the lack of quality we have in midfield. I think next season will be a good indicator for his injuries as he will finally get a proper summer of rest and recovery. Last year after breaking his leg he was rushing to get fit for the World Cup and was quite clear to see he wasn't at 100% during that

Also comments like he can't boss games like Xavi and Iniesta aren't exactly true, he is playing in a far inferior team to Barca, I'd counter and say if you stuck either of those two in the Arsenal team they wouldn't be as effective as him.
 
peterstorey said:
In the last 7 years Rooney's played 217 league games and Fabregas 211. I guess Rooney's a crock and not worth £50M either.
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raxliw.jpg


Rooney has consistently made over 40 appearances a season for Man Utd, in fact the only season he hasn't made 40 appearances is his first for Everton. Fabregas has been below that mark for 3 seasons now, suggesting something has changed from the seasons when he was averaging 45-50.

Don't make me graph you again dammit.
 
Appearances are deceptive as Man Utd have played more games in other comps. Do it again for league games.
 
Danny1982 said:
Out the top of my head, Barcelona 4-1 Arsenal?
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Nasri, Walcott, Rosicky, Diaby and Denilson isn't exactly a high quality midfield, A Defence of Clichy, Sagna, Silvestre and Vermaelen in front of Almunia hardly makes you quake with fear and Bendtner isn't going to make defenders think twice about stepping up the pitch is he? 4 quality players out of 11 and top team does now make.
 
RDCR07 said:
He said top side. ;)
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Good point.

By the way, for those Arsenal fans who really believe that Arsenal has the best midfielder in the world after Xavi and Iniesta, and definitely the BEST midfielder in the premier league bar nobody, how come Fabregas has never won a trophy in Arsenal or even finished higher than third in the league?? Is your team really that sh*t?!

Probably yes.
 
Danny1982 said:
Good point.

By the way, for those Arsenal fans who really believe that Arsenal has the best midfielder in the world after Xavi and Iniesta, and definitely the BEST midfielder in the premier league bar nobody, how come Fabregas has never won a trophy in Arsenal or even finished higher than third in the league?? Is your team really that sh*t?!

Probably yes.
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What a useless way of arguing. But I'll play.

Is, say Carrick, a better midfielder than Fabregas?
 
adexkola said:
What a useless way of arguing. But I'll play.

Is, say Carrick, a better midfielder than Fabregas?
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Nope, but obviously Fabregas is not THAT brillant either than he can't make a difference even when he faces such an "inferior midfielder" like Carrick.

Your move.
 
Danny1982 said:
Nope, but obviously Fabregas is not THAT brillant either than he can't make a difference even when he faces such an "inferior midfielder" like Carrick.

Your move.
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That is like saying 2+2 =7

one man doesn't make the entire team.

Apart from Iniesta and Xavi, name just 3 midfielders still playing who are better than Cesc Fabregas.

If you can't he is that brilliant.
 
I won't say they are better than him (because the difference isn't big that I can prove it), but he hasn't proved that he is better than Modric, Sneijder or Ozil last season.. And if I were to buy a midfielder for United, I'd choose all those three ahead of him because it's riskier to sign him with his recent injuries, and he won't give much more that it's worth the risk.
 
Danny1982 said:
I won't say they are better than him (because the difference isn't big that I can prove it), but he hasn't proved that he is better than Modric, Sneijder or Ozil last season.. And if I were to buy a midfielder for United, I'd choose all those three ahead of him because it's riskier to sign him with his recent injuries, and he won't give much more that it's worth the risk.
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I can MAYBE understand Sneidjer and Ozil but Modric over Fabregas? Really?
 
RDCR07 said:
I can MAYBE understand Sneidjer and Ozil but Modric over Fabregas? Really?
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According to the redcafe (totally) scientific study, Modric is leading the fans preference for the player they want to see in United, even though Modric wants to go to Chelsea, and United have not shown any interest in him and the whole deal is pretty much impossible.

How dare you mock that! :nono:
 
Danny1982 said:
According to the redcafe (totally) scientific study, Modric is leading the fans preference for the player they want to see in United, even though Modric wants to go to Chelsea, and United have not shown any interest in him and the whole deal is pretty much impossible.

How dare you mock that! :nono:
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Maybe if you would've read the OP of that thread, things would've been much easier for you to understand

Cards on the table time.

Which midfielder would the caf prefer?

If you want to discuss how likely any of them is to join United or not, or how much it would cost to sign them, then fill your boots in the relevant thread.

This thread is purely for gauging opinions on which player would be the biggest success if they joined United this summer.
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Danny1982 said:
According to the redcafe (totally) scientific study, Modric is leading the fans preference for the player they want to see in United, even though Modric wants to go to Chelsea, and United have not shown any interest in him and the whole deal is pretty much impossible.

How dare you mock that! :nono:
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Don't even get me started on transfers. If you offer the top midfielders in the world to the cafe and ask who would they want if we could sign one of them for FREE, we will find completely different answers and Modric would be way down in that list.
 
KM, exactly. The OP is asking about pure quality and success potential. Isn't that what we are discussing now.

RDCR07, read KM's reply.
 
The Guardian said:
Why are you so confident that Cesc Fábregas will stay?
I am confident because I hope he will see that there will be no greater achievement for him in his life than to lead this team to success and that it will not be the right period for him to leave the club.

In one breath, you say "confident" but in the next, you say "hope". There seem to be a few grey areas ...
I think Cesc has always been torn between his love for Arsenal that I feel is really genuine and, as well and what you can understand, the desire to play for the biggest team, at the moment, in the world. I think both exist in his head.

Have you had a meeting with him since his return for pre-season last week to discuss where his head and his heart are leaning?
Yes. I cannot speak about the meeting but he knows that I want him to stay.

He is under contract until 2015 so, technically, he cannot force his way out?
No, but you can only be in if you are completely in. He is the leader of the team. He has to be completely focused and convinced that he wants to stay.

If he is not completely focused, Arsenal would presumably still not let him go unless they got what they felt was the right price for him?
Yes. But we want to keep him and for us, it's not a question of money. We are not there to make the money. We are there to keep our best players. We have managed the club well to be in a position to say "No". For any money. We have the potential to do that because we are in a healthy financial situation. But, on the other hand, you need as well the player wanting to be with you.

That's clearly the issue, isn't it? You have to be convinced that Cesc, in his heart, wants to stay, 100% ...
I am convinced, but I want him to be convinced.

Surely, he can give his best on the pitch only if he is 100% committed?
Some people questioned his last season but I never question his commitment. This guy is a real winner and if he did not have the expected season, it was down to injuries. He played in some games where he was not right completely but he wanted to play, to win.

You clearly don't want to sell Cesc but it's been like a feeding frenzy with the Catalans saying, officially and unofficially, that they will get him for this amount and that they will get him. Is there a message that you want to send to them, once and for all?
Ha ha. You know what they do. I can only speak for ourselves. For us, it's not a question of money. It's a question of desire. We want Cesc to be with us but we want him as well to be happy with us. I have heard people say that we do not want to keep Cesc. We are desperate to keep Cesc. And we will fight for everything because you do not educate a player for eight years as we have done only to want him to go once he is at an age to deliver. We want to keep the team together.

The boldest official statement from Barcelona this summer came from the president Sandro Rosell when he said that Cesc was worth less now than what he bid for him last summer [£40m]?
That is disrespectful to Cesc. I rate Cesc so highly that for me, he is top, top, world class. He is certainly in the top five midfield players in the world.

In summary, if Cesc is not happy, you would let him go?
I want him to be happy and to stay.

But if he said he was unhappy...?
That's the only way, he could get out. I don't think he's unhappy but he wants to go back to Barcelona. If we wanted to make a money situation and wanted to sell the player, we put him on the market and we ask "Who gives more?" But that would not be the conversation. For us, it's not a question of money. It is a question of Cesc wanting to be with us. And I think he is torn because he loves the club deeply. We will fight until the last second to keep him.

How important is it that you emerge from the transfer window with a bigger and stronger squad
The message that we give out is important. For example, you see about Fábregas leaving, Nasri leaving ... if you give that message out, you cannot pretend you are a big club. Because a big club, first of all, holds on to its big players and gives a message out to all the other big clubs that they cannot come in and take away from you.

You have big games at the start of the season before the window closes, including the Champions League qualifiers...
I have a basic team in my head that can start the season and it is important as well to settle psychologically and that the players who are here focus on the season and not the transfer market. The players who are here will ask "Will he go, will he go?" That is not the way to prepare for the season.

Would a major signing convince the players who are ambivalent about staying?
What is very difficult for us is that as long as you do not know that this group stays together, you cannot strengthen the team because you think, "If he goes, I have to do what?" I also cannot really tell you [a transfer target], I want you because if he stays, you cannot come in. So you are in no man's land and that is terrible. That is why the transfer period basically should stop when the training starts.

So you need Fábregas to give you a quick answer, one by this week?
We have to stop at some stage. Cesc now comes back to training in London from a muscle injury so I hope we can close that very quickly. In our favour.
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..
 
Dion said:
The breakdown of that;

Season Apps
2004–05 46
2005–06 50
2006–07 54
2007–08 45
2008–09 33
2009–10 36
2010–11 35

Notice anything about the number of games?
Click to expand...

Obviously yes - but he´s still playing well over thirty games a season. The suggestion was that he´s always injured which cleary isnt the case given the number of games he has played.

There was even a suggestion in a previous post that he´d be another Owen Hargreaves which is ludicrous.
 
Danny1982 said:
He pulled his hamstring 6 times in the last 15 months. I'm not saying his career is over, but anybody signing him should take this point seriously before splashing big cash on him. Also his injury problems started 2 years ago, and worsened last year, so stats dated back to 2004 is irrelevant here.. He started 22/38 games for Arsenal in the league last season due to multiple injuries.. Not impressive to say the least.

Apart from that, he is without a doubt a quality player, BUT he still can't boss the midfield like Xavi and Iniesta do for example, especially in the big games. He contributes to the team like Sneijder does to Inter, or Modric to Tottenham, or Lampard to Chelsea and Gerrard to Liverpool (probably two years ago)...etc., which is a lot, but "the best in the world" (after Xavi and Iniesta)? I don't know, just can't see it in black and white.. And by the way, I'm not saying that those players are better than him, but I can't see how you can prove that he is better than them, or contribute more to the team.

When you take all that into consideration, it's not easy to splash big cash on him ala Kaka.. For 35 million euros, I'd say it's worth the risk, but when people start talking about 55 million euros, I just have to disagree. He is not worth that money in July 2011, in my opinion.
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Clearly you have your opinion and I have mine, it is all about opinion and there is no objective way to prove that one player is "better" than any other, but its certainly arguable that in terms of ability he´s one of the best around.

As regards injuires, most players have bad luck over a particular period, its simple probability that very few player ever make it through their career without a spell on the sideleines nursing various injuires. A lot of the time its apparent that Fabregas is so integral to what Arsenal do that he´s rushed back and probably not given enough time to recover - it doesn´t mean he´s a crock.

A pertinent fact for me is that like it or not, while still being miles behind Barca, Arsenal are the closest in terms of the football they play, which is in no small part down to the Fabregas at the heart of the team - in terms of statistics (one of the only objective means of measurement, albeit slightly flawed) they win more games when he plays and average more points. Add to that he´s probably one of a few player who might be able to step into the Barca side and play the same way.

I´m not saying he´s the best player in the world - but I was responding to your post initially which suggested that he´s overrated and would be a waste of money, which I personally don´t agree with having watched him for years in the PL and in teh CL where he´s been consistenly very good since he was a kid.
 
"Cesc Suffering" - Xavi at it again ffs...

Barcelona midfielder Xavi claims Arsenal captain Cesc Fabregas told him he was "suffering" because of his desire to join the Catalan club.

The transfer saga of Fabregas returning to his former club has been one of the most protracted, ongoing rumours in modern football but Xavi reckons his compatriot has made his preference of a return to the European champions clear.

Xavi told Barcelona's official website: "I spoke to Cesc in Ibiza and he said he was suffering because he wanted to come. It's more like, he did everything he could to come and wants to leave Arsenal - although he made it clear that now everything depends on the selling club."

Fabregas, 24, is a product of the Barcelona youth system but joined Arsenal in 2003 and has since become a key figure at the club.

Barca coach Pep Guardiola earlier revealed he hoped there will be progress in the pursuit of Cesc Fabregas before the end of the week.

Guardiola is reported to be unhappy with Barcelona president Sandro Rosell for his failure to sign Fabregas earlier in the summer, but is certainly hoping for an imminent update on the situation.

"Now the situation about moves for reinforcements is very complicated, but I'm hopeful in the next few days it will become clear," he said on Catalunya Radio.

"I'm always optimistic."

Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger told Sky Sports News on Monday that he sees Fabregas leading his club in the hunt for trophies in the coming season

"Cesc loves the club and hopefully we will manage. We know that this story for Barcelona has gone on for years now, we have to close that and focus on the season, hopefully with Cesc Fabregas," he said.

With constant rumours linking Fabregas and Samir Nasri with moves away from the Emirates and Gael Clichy already signing for Manchester City, Wenger may enter the campaign with a new-look squad having already signed Charlton youngster Carl Jenkinson and Lille forward Gervinho.

Xavi claims Cesc is 'suffering' - TEAMtalk | Latest Football News, Results and Fixtures

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Cesc is suffering... well let him suffer even more. He shouldnt have signed that massive bumper contract with Arsenal then. What has he left - 4 years or something?

He signed for the massive payday, then the season-end he wants away. Thats out of order. Arsenal offered him the contract so that he would stay, he then decides "feck Arsenal i'm outta here!"

Xavi should stay the feck outta this, aswell as all the other Barca players - its none of their business. They dont pay his feckin wages!

On the other-hand, if he signs for Barca & then they cant afford Sanchez, so he comes here - then fair play to all the Barca players for their endeavours. Cant see it tho, but you never know!

Thats proper double-standards right here :)
 
It's ridiculous that they are prepared to pay more for Sanchez than Fabregas.
 
Sanchez might be willing to go somewhere else if pressed, Fabregas is going to leave for one club and one club only. Plus Barcelona could use Sanchez now as arguably an upgrade, Fabregas will be a squad player (the Carlsberg of all squad players) until Xavi's level starts to drop.
 
Red Hand Devil said:
"I spoke to Cesc in Ibiza and he said he was suffering because he wanted to come. It's more like, he did everything he could to come and wants to leave Arsenal - although he made it clear that now everything depends on the selling club."
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I must have missed the part where he handed in his transfer request and thus waived his signing-on fee.
 
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