Fabinho

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JPRouve said:
For Monaco he would because he covers two positions at once.
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So perhaps he's an example of a player brilliantly suited to a specific system at Monaco? Carrick, for example, even in his prime, would look rubbish in a system where he had to do masses of leg work like this current Monaco team. Yet his more intelligent positioning would mean he'd fit into alternative systems. Perhaps Fabinho doesn't read the game as well as some here may have stated.

I don't have a clue to be honest, haven't seen enough of him to really form an opinion, but there has to be a reason we seemingly aren't interested in what many see as the perfect target...
 
I wonder if there are any comparable heat maps for Fabinho vs other DM's. That might show whether he sits back or is roaming more than what Jose would want out of a DM. Now, maybe he's more likely to move forward considering Monaco's style, but it'd still be interesting to see where he is playing in comparison to others. Heck compare to Carrick, as Carrick also gets forward and helps to initiate a lot of attacks.
 
jungledrums said:
So perhaps he's an example of a player brilliantly suited to a specific system at Monaco? Carrick, for example, even in his prime, would look rubbish in a system where he had to do masses of leg work like this current Monaco team. Yet his more intelligent positioning would mean he'd fit into alternative systems. Perhaps Fabinho doesn't read the game as well as some here may have stated.

I don't have a clue to be honest, haven't seen enough of him to really form an opinion, but there has to be a reason we seemingly aren't interested in what many see as the perfect target...
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90 percent of the caf falls into this category. most of us just started paying attention to him in his #6 roll when he played vs City and then Juventus. No one was calling for him before that. Hardly anyone watched him play before that and probably havent after :lol:.
 
What are the other two options ? Dier and Matic . Dier is quoted 50 m at tott and matic is at chelsea, i cant see us getting any of them when they are top 2 in epl. Who then?
 
like Kante last Summer this transfer would make perfect sense.....

would not be surprised if it happened, worried Mourinho wants a bigger unit like Matic or Dier
 
prtk0811 said:
What are the other two options ? Dier and Matic . Dier is quoted 50 m at tott and matic is at chelsea, i cant see us getting any of them when they are top 2 in epl. Who then?
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Krychowiak, Nzonzi, Danilo, Jorginho, Gueye, Romeu
 
cheeky_backheel said:
The article does not support your claim on what position he plays and how he plays.

You claim that he is currently a box2box which involves more of a vertical movement, when what he mainly does is a sideways coverage of the attacking fullbacks. Fabinho's athletic abilities are required for his role and not a reflection of his poor reading the game as you are claiming. His job involves discouraging attacks through the middle and then recovering to cover once the opposition is forced wide.

Your opinion of him is one I have not heard from anyone else, including regular watchers of ligue 1 and Monaco. He is almost unanimously described as the best DM prospect but you see him as a box2box CM, which in of itself is enough to render the rest of your evaluation not worth considering.
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Can I ask have you actually watched a lot of Monaco? Because the other two guys I was speaking about seemed to somewhat agree he isn't playing as a DM and is sort of a box to box player.

Also I'm not saying the fact he has athletic attributes is a bad thing I think your confused on that one. I was pointing out the fact he is a chaser he reacts and runs back at people and it's not just out wide if someone think that in something like 3000 minutes of football all he does is move sideways and only tackles outwide then there is no point in having the discussion.

You lot seem to be leaving out one important fact that this guy has to work in tandem with Pogba. Someone who will evacuate midfield on occasion. The problem is Fabinho wants to go forward as well. From what I've seen he doesn't have the discipline to just stay and cover. He doesn't have the intelligence to notice where there is an issue. You compare him to Carrick and there are vast differences.
Now a thing to take in to account is that Jose doesn't commit his fullbacks so Fabinho would only have to patrol the midfield.
He also can't dictate a tempo, can't control a game. These are things that come from intelligence. Pogba is a huge part of this and you have to ask yourself can Fabinho do the job like say a Matic would?

If you then realise he isn't playing like a Dm and more like a b2b the problem is then there are better players at that job than him.

Back to the article I said he chases people, relies on his athletic abilities. People on here said he didn't. So what do you believe the article saying he does and me or the two users saying he doesn't.

The fact there have been no real rumours of him leaving or any intrest in him for 5 weeks in France and the rumour that he is a player Monaco don't want to lose as they are losing Baka all points to the rumour that we have absolutely no intrest in him whatsoever or that he is 3rd or 4th on a list. That sounds more likely to me as really he isn't as great as people are making out. It seems like a game of Chinese whisper where people have read one persons thoughts then added to the story and now he is some sort of mythical creature.
 
jungledrums said:
To play devil's advocate... He wouldn't need elite physical attributes if he wasn't continually "bypassed in the midfield" as the article states...
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He is not bypassed in central midfield but on the flank, which is how scheme is meant to work.

Monaco play a narrow 4-2-2-2 with the fullbacks responsible for going upfield and providing the width. This would usually leave Bakayoko and Fabinho to cover for the fullback on their side.

When Monaco is facing a counter attack, the presence of Bakayoko and Fabinho is meant to crowd the middle and discourage an attack through the middle. This is should force the play wide into the inviting space vacated by the overlapping fullback. The affected DM is then expected to recover from his central position and chase the ball wide before the play develops further and thus gives the fullback and other players the time to recover into a more defensive position.

The success of the system depends heavily on the DM being able to recover fast enough and contain the threat, while the full back gets back in position. Unfortunately the flaw in the system was fully exposed by Juve to score their first goal.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
Can I ask have you actually watched a lot of Monaco? Because the other two guys I was speaking about seemed to somewhat agree he isn't playing as a DM and is sort of a box to box player.

Also I'm not saying the fact he has athletic attributes is a bad thing I think your confused on that one. I was pointing out the fact he is a chaser he reacts and runs back at people and it's not just out wide if someone think that in something like 3000 minutes of football all he does is move sideways and only tackles outwide then there is no point in having the discussion.

You lot seem to be leaving out one important fact that this guy has to work in tandem with Pogba. Someone who will evacuate midfield on occasion. The problem is Fabinho wants to go forward as well. From what I've seen he doesn't have the discipline to just stay and cover. He doesn't have the intelligence to notice where there is an issue. You compare him to Carrick and there are vast differences.
Now a thing to take in to account is that Jose doesn't commit his fullbacks so Fabinho would only have to patrol the midfield.
He also can't dictate a tempo, can't control a game. These are things that come from intelligence. Pogba is a huge part of this and you have to ask yourself can Fabinho do the job like say a Matic would?

If you then realise he isn't playing like a Dm and more like a b2b the problem is then there are better players at that job than him.

Back to the article I said he chases people, relies on his athletic abilities. People on here said he didn't. So what do you believe the article saying he does and me or the two users saying he doesn't.

The fact there have been no real rumours of him leaving or any intrest in him for 5 weeks in France and the rumour that he is a player Monaco don't want to lose as they are losing Baka all points to the rumour that we have absolutely no intrest in him whatsoever or that he is 3rd or 4th on a list. That sounds more likely to me as really he isn't as great as people are making out. It seems like a game of Chinese whisper where people have read one persons thoughts then added to the story and now he is some sort of mythical creature.
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I have watched Monaco - more in CL, a few in Ligue 1 and 2-3 in CdF and CdlL.

Monaco play a narrow 4-2-2-2 and Fabinho's role is more of a DM than a CM. He role is very similar to Gabi for Atletico. The attacking nature of their play does mean he gets the opportunity to get up the field but most often he is behind the ball (to shorten the field) and not ahead of it (posing a genuine attacking threat) like you would see with a typical box2box midfielder. Like I explained in an earlier post, most times he has to chase, it is on the flank and not through the middle, and that is how the system is meant to work. You painted a picture as if it was a failing on his part.

Fabinho is actually a very disciplined player and rarely caught out of position (its bakayoko that needs to work on his positional discipline imo). His role at Monaco does require he gets upfield occasionally but cannot be said to be due to his desire to get forward. Essentially, you are referencing his strengths as his weaknesses and describing a player that is almost totally opposite of what I have seen of Fabinho.

I do agree that he cannot read the game as well as Carrick or similar more experienced DMs, but he is not totally lacking like you are suggesting and given he has only played in the role for such a limited time, his current level is quite impressive. Given the proper tutelage and playing time, I expect him to improve a lot in this area.

Fabinho is also not a DLP like Carrick and his job would not be to dictate the tempo of the game - that is Pogba's job. What he does offer is a good enough passing ability and vision to play the ball upfield when he has to, which is essential against oppositions that try to deny Pogba the ball to disrupt our game e.g. What we did to Ajax.

Mourinho does commit his full backs but to the extent that it doesnt leave the defence exposed. He simply needs a DM that has the athleticism to cover the space and the fullback has the pace to recover. Fabinho can provide the former.

Bottom line, from what I have seen, Fabinho is fully capable of playing as a DM in a dual pivot with Pogba (which is similar to his current role at Monaco). He is not DLP like Carrick nor should we be looking for a DLP to pair with Pogba. The ideal partner for Pogba is a very good ball winner with the pace to cover side to side and decent passing range and vision. The issue I have had with him are the rumors that he wants to play as a RB not DM and is why he is interested in City.
 
cheeky_backheel said:
I have watched Monaco - more in CL, a few in Ligue 1 and 2-3 in CdF and CdlL.

Monaco play a narrow 4-2-2-2 and Fabinho's role is more of a DM than a CM. He role is very similar to Gabi for Atletico. The attacking nature of their play does mean he gets the opportunity to get up the field but most often he is behind the ball (to shorten the field) and not ahead of it (posing a genuine attacking threat) like you would see with a typical box2box midfielder. Like I explained in an earlier post, most times he has to chase, it is on the flank and not through the middle, and that is how the system is meant to work. You painted a picture as if it was a failing on his part.

Fabinho is actually a very disciplined player and rarely caught out of position (its bakayoko that needs to work on his positional discipline imo). His role at Monaco does require he gets upfield occasionally but cannot be said to be due to his desire to get forward. Essentially, you are referencing his strengths as his weaknesses and describing a player that is almost totally opposite of what I have seen of Fabinho.

I do agree that he cannot read the game as well as Carrick or similar more experienced DMs, but he is not totally lacking like you are suggesting and given he has only played in the role for such a limited time, his current level is quite impressive. Given the proper tutelage and playing time, I expect him to improve a lot in this area.

Fabinho is also not a DLP like Carrick and his job would not be to dictate the tempo of the game - that is Pogba's job. What he does offer is a good enough passing ability and vision to play the ball upfield when he has to, which is essential against oppositions that try to deny Pogba the ball to disrupt our game e.g. What we did to Ajax.

Mourinho does commit his full backs but to the extent that it doesnt leave the defence exposed. He simply needs a DM that has the athleticism to cover the space and the fullback has the pace to recover. Fabinho can provide the former.

Bottom line, from what I have seen, Fabinho is fully capable of playing as a DM in a dual pivot with Pogba (which is similar to his current role at Monaco). He is not DLP like Carrick nor should we be looking for a DLP to pair with Pogba. The ideal partner for Pogba is a very good ball winner with the pace to cover side to side and decent passing range and vision. The issue I have had with him are the rumors that he wants to play as a RB not DM and is why he is interested in City.
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That's a very good summary.
 
cheeky_backheel said:
I have watched Monaco - more in CL, a few in Ligue 1 and 2-3 in CdF and CdlL.

Monaco play a narrow 4-2-2-2 and Fabinho's role is more of a DM than a CM. He role is very similar to Gabi for Atletico. The attacking nature of their play does mean he gets the opportunity to get up the field but most often he is behind the ball (to shorten the field) and not ahead of it (posing a genuine attacking threat) like you would see with a typical box2box midfielder. Like I explained in an earlier post, most times he has to chase, it is on the flank and not through the middle, and that is how the system is meant to work. You painted a picture as if it was a failing on his part.

Fabinho is actually a very disciplined player and rarely caught out of position (its bakayoko that needs to work on his positional discipline imo). His role at Monaco does require he gets upfield occasionally but cannot be said to be due to his desire to get forward. Essentially, you are referencing his strengths as his weaknesses and describing a player that is almost totally opposite of what I have seen of Fabinho.

I do agree that he cannot read the game as well as Carrick or similar more experienced DMs, but he is not totally lacking like you are suggesting and given he has only played in the role for such a limited time, his current level is quite impressive. Given the proper tutelage and playing time, I expect him to improve a lot in this area.

Fabinho is also not a DLP like Carrick and his job would not be to dictate the tempo of the game - that is Pogba's job. What he does offer is a good enough passing ability and vision to play the ball upfield when he has to, which is essential against oppositions that try to deny Pogba the ball to disrupt our game e.g. What we did to Ajax.

Mourinho does commit his full backs but to the extent that it doesnt leave the defence exposed. He simply needs a DM that has the athleticism to cover the space and the fullback has the pace to recover. Fabinho can provide the former.

Bottom line, from what I have seen, Fabinho is fully capable of playing as a DM in a dual pivot with Pogba (which is similar to his current role at Monaco). He is not DLP like Carrick nor should we be looking for a DLP to pair with Pogba. The ideal partner for Pogba is a very good ball winner with the pace to cover side to side and decent passing range and vision. The issue I have had with him are the rumors that he wants to play as a RB not DM and is why he is interested in City.
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Problem is I really don't agree with your assertion that mostly he only chases on the wing and that is by design. It happens a lot centrally wherebhe is just ball watching and doesn't see the run behind him. Obviously we have very different views. No one is going to change my mind as like yourself my opinion is on some games last year and 90% of this season. I view that as a failing because it is especially when I really don't think the kind of player you have mentioned would be the best to suit Pogba. And also it's either or, he either does commit his fullbacks or he doesn't there is no grey area.

You're welcome to your opinion it's just not one I agree with.
 
Or maybe he's not as good as everyone thought he is? I don't see many teams scrambling for him especially when he's quite readily available for the right price
 
Yeah who is actually interested in him? It's strange if someone who is a dream signing for many isn't linked with anyone after a highly successful season for his team.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
Problem is I really don't agree with your assertion that mostly he only chases on the wing and that is by design. It happens a lot centrally wherebhe is just ball watching and doesn't see the run behind him. Obviously we have very different views. No one is going to change my mind as like yourself my opinion is on some games last year and 90% of this season. I view that as a failing because it is especially when I really don't think the kind of player you have mentioned would be the best to suit Pogba. And also it's either or, he either does commit his fullbacks or he doesn't there is no grey area.

You're welcome to your opinion it's just not one I agree with.
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Below is something I posted on another thread regarding Mourinho and attacking fullbacks
cheeky_backheel said:
Here is a comment from someone (Luke Shaw) who should know a bit about what Mourinho expects of his fullbacks

Speaking to MUTV , Shaw said: "At times people have said maybe he [Mourinho] doesn’t like his full-backs to go forward but that’s not the case. He gives both full-backs that license to go forward, obviously not at the same time but if I have the chance then it’s up to me if I want to go forward or not. It’s not that I’ve got to stay put or do particular things, I’ve got the freedom to play and that only gives me the confidence in what I want to do to help the team."
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RU Devil said:
I wonder if there are any comparable heat maps for Fabinho vs other DM's. That might show whether he sits back or is roaming more than what Jose would want out of a DM. Now, maybe he's more likely to move forward considering Monaco's style, but it'd still be interesting to see where he is playing in comparison to others. Heck compare to Carrick, as Carrick also gets forward and helps to initiate a lot of attacks.
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The system being played at Monaco would then need to be taken into account as Fabinho often played in a midfield 2. Therefore it would allow him more freedom than being the DM in a 3 man midfield. He was more box to box than truly DM tbh.
 
cheeky_backheel said:
Below is something I posted on another thread regarding Mourinho and attacking fullbacks
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Honestlynwatching them I wouldn't have thought that was the case as both he and Valencia looked like they were playing with a rubber band attached to them that only allowed them to go so far. Then him telling Mitchell off for going too far forward would indicate that wasn't really the case but if Shaw is saying that then it must be true. Where did you get that from? I'd love to read it as the fullbacks have been a spot of contention for me all year.
 
cheeky_backheel said:
Bottom line, from what I have seen, Fabinho is fully capable of playing as a DM in a dual pivot with Pogba (which is similar to his current role at Monaco). He is not DLP like Carrick nor should we be looking for a DLP to pair with Pogba. The ideal partner for Pogba is a very good ball winner with the pace to cover side to side and decent passing range and vision. The issue I have had with him are the rumors that he wants to play as a RB not DM and is why he is interested in City.
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Nice summary, but I don't think I've ever seen the initials DLP

Defensive left player/position?
 
Hoboman said:
Krychowiak, Nzonzi, Danilo, Jorginho, Gueye, Romeu
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Have to say I was surprised the likes of Spurs and Liverpool allowed Nzonzi to leave the premiership without making a move for him. Not world class, but he was obviously a very good player at Stoke, always considered him one of the most under rated players at the time. Personally I think Romeu is utter pants though.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
Honestlynwatching them I wouldn't have thought that was the case as both he and Valencia looked like they were playing with a rubber band attached to them that only allowed them to go so far. Then him telling Mitchell off for going too far forward would indicate that wasn't really the case but if Shaw is saying that then it must be true. Where did you get that from? I'd love to read it as the fullbacks have been a spot of contention for me all year.
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Here is the article http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...l-news/man-utd-news-shaw-southampton-11766784

When you have a full back or even a CB surge forward, you need to have enough cover behind him so as not to be overly exposed on the counter. Mourinho, as far as I can tell, wants at least 3 players to maintain the defensive line, usually a combination of CB, DM and/or LB/RB. The details would likely depend on the scenario and quality of players e.g. you could have the 2 CBs + the opposite fullback, or you can push CBs wide and the DM drop into the middle or to a side.

The other and more important criteria is that the attacking full back should have the pace, discipline and positional sense to help the defense recover its shape as quickly as possible (which is not necessarily same as him going back to his normal position). Unfortunately, such quality of full backs are in short supply (with Lahm being one of the best in recent time). At Madrid, Mourinho had to make do with Arbeloa who was too slow and Marcelo who couldnt defend his own life. At Chelsea, he didnt have any solid option at LB and had to move Azi over, keeping in mind there was an aging terry in the middle.

What you often see are full backs that push forward with abandon like wingers, leaving the rest of their team mates to try and clean up after them. For example, Juve's first goal can all be traced to Sidibe being caught upfield and not helping his defence to recover, which started a chain reaction that moved other players out of position and led to Juve scoring. For Mourinho, conceding such a goal is not permitted


Last season, Mourinho did not have a DM with the full toolset to cover side to side, which would have allowed the two full backs to push forward more. Worse still is that, of the various options at full back, only Valencia has the pace, engine and discipline to overlap without overly exposing the defense. Shaw has the pace to recover but his positioning and awareness leaves much to be desired. This should improve with more game time and experience. Darmian, Rojo and Blind simply lack the pace to recover in time, and both Darmian and Rojo are so clueless upfront that there is really no point in them going forward.

I think with a quality DM, and Shaw staying healthy (or new LB), I expect us to see more attacking forays from both fullbacks
 
With so many wanting him I presume people have actually watched him play during the season and not just 1 or 2 games? An awful lot must have watched Monaco the last year then.
 
Kidders said:
I actually believe A DM such as Fabinho would be our most important signing of this window, it would release Pogba to influence our attack and get to the levels he is capable of, yes for sure we need a world class #9 but for the sake of the team we need a water carrier.
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we have one herrera
 
jesperjaap said:
Have to say I was surprised the likes of Spurs and Liverpool allowed Nzonzi to leave the premiership without making a move for him. Not world class, but he was obviously a very good player at Stoke, always considered him one of the most under rated players at the time. Personally I think Romeu is utter pants though.
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I also raved about N'Zonzi at Stoke and the same with Mane. I'd now happily sign Romeu he's a very good player I also like the full back Cedric.
 
So, assuming Fabinho is off, or just click-bait, and the remaining choice was Matic or Dier (assuming those were the only two options, which I know they aren't) which would you prefer?

I think I'd prefer Matic. He's not tarred with that hes-good-cos-hes-English brush, and has also been pretty consistent. I mean, that position is normally a pretty 'below the radar' job, but I think you can see Matic's contribution more than Dier's when they're both playing well.

Also, I'm not thinking of this signing as a future-proof signing, as both Dier and Matic would be stop-gap signings until a better DM comes along.
 
mad1max954 said:
thanks - seemed to make a lot of sense. Do you think Fabinho is disciplined enough to play DM in Jose's team? Is he your first choice?
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I think he is disciplined enough to play as a DM but more importantly seems to have a good football iq which should make him more coachable and adaptable to different schemes than most.

He would be my first choice, as he seems to check all the boxes and I cant think of a better option at this time. Matic is getting old, seems to have lost a step and will cost a lot, Bakayoko seems more positionally indisciplined, Weigl is too soft, Diawara too laid back, while Carvalho and Danilo Pereira seem to rely too much on their physicality than their melons.

Like I said earlier, my only concern with him is rumors that he wants to go to only a club that will let him play at RB as he doesnt like playing in midfield.

The other player I have liked what little I have seen of him is Anderlecht's Dendoncker, but I havent seen enough of him to make a solid judgment. Everton seem to be interested in him.
 
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