F1 2024 Season

dinostar77 said:
Maybe it's McLaren who have been doing something with the brakes. After all RedBull have been looking at McLaren brake system very closely.

Anyway if anyone is affected it might become apparent at next GP
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I don't think any team is waiting for the technical regulations to change, I think they would have changed it way before then. My personal suspicion is that Australia's DNF for Red Bull might have flagged something up, Brembo were quick to say it wasn't their responsibility and pushed it back as a 'set up' issue to the team. A set up issue on a calliper doesn't sound like a normal DNF, usually it's something blocking the airflow ducts or a hydraulic issue. This is probably what got the FIA a little bit more interested.

FIA took a race or so to work out the next course of action and then implemented it behind the scenes from Miami. It would explain the drop off in performance for Red Bull from then onwards, with performance gains from all other teams. RedBull's interest in McLaren's brake system is either them trying to work out how they get performance back or deflection from them to give an apparent explanation for the change in technical regulations.
 
Max did complain a lot about breaking in Hungary.

But I seriously doubt last year had anything to do with brakes, they were 20km/h quicker than others on straight ffs, and had such a calm car in corners.
 
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Good couple of posts, the Windsor/scarbs tweets, are interesting.

Makes sense now in hindsight why RedBull went from being superb on tyre management, to back among the pack. Such a simple ingenious contraption. Hats off to them.

This also now explains the post from that Motorsports journalist who said that RedBull were running something FIA deemed illegal and they have suffered since it was removed.

Wonder if they were the only ones on the grid to come up with that idea...

EDIT: RedBull mechanic from the F1 team has called Peter Windsors theory bullshit.

Also GPblog said they asked the FIA and RedBull after the Hungary race and both said there was nothing illegal on the RedBull that had to be removed this season.
 
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not going to read them, but assume red bull have been cheating and should have all wins scrubbed from their record.
 
Amar__ said:
Max did conplain a lot about breaking in Hungary.

But I seriously doubt last year had anything to do with brakes, they were 20km/h quicker than others on straight ffs, and had such a calm car in corners.
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Nah last year and this year difference is them walking away from last year's rocketship design.
 
Ill be very curious to see what - if anything- RB might have done over the break. Cant imagine Max taking kindly to losing his home GP. At least not without at least having a good shot to win it. Heck, Toto may be trying to find ways to sabotage them at Zandvoort :lol:
 
Dutch racing driver Tom Coronel believes Valtteri Bottas should quit Formula 1 and give a young driver a chance as his career is “over”.

Racing for Williams before joining Mercedes where he won 10 Grands Prix and twice finished runner-up in the Drivers’ standings, Bottas has said he’s enjoying life more as a Sauber driver.
Rating the Finn’s first 14 races a mere “4.5”, the Dutch pundit told Formule 1 Magazine: “We can expect more from a driver like Valtteri Bottas.

“It’s always difficult when you go from the best team to the worst team, but then I’d rather a young talent get a chance there.

“Bottas just has to stop, it’s over! Zero world championship points, get out of here!”

“I know he doesn’t have the tools, but he chose it himself. I honestly think it’s a shame.

“Do something else. Go to Finland and do fun things or make funny videos and give this seat to someone else who needs it to gain experience and grow.”

He even went as far as to accuse Bottas of being the bollard blocking 2022 Formula 2 champion Felipe Drugovich from having a spot on the 2025 grid with the Brazilian one of several drivers linked to the vacant Audi race seat.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/mot...1&cvid=f4b157fcb67847a299659cfeb75b3423&ei=61
 

FIA clarify braking system changes after unfounded Red Bull rumours​


A change to the text of Article 11.1.2 of Formula 1’s technical regulations saw the addition of text regarding this area of the car, outlawing asymmetrical braking systems in writing from July 31st.

“The brake system must be designed so that within each circuit, the forces applied to the brake pads are the same magnitude and act as opposing pairs on a given brake disc,” was the previous wording in the law, before the additional text read: “Any system or mechanism which can produce systematically or intentionally, asymmetric braking torques for a given axle is forbidden.”

The FIA has now confirmed that nobody on the grid had been running a banned brake system, but rather the wording of the rule change has been as such to prevent teams from falling foul in the future, and while this kind of system would have already been illegal from 2026, the wording has made it clearer in the rules.

An FIA spokesperson told Motorsport.com: “There is no truth that any team was using such a system.”
 
pauldyson1uk said:
Dutch racing driver Tom Coronel believes Valtteri Bottas should quit Formula 1 and give a young driver a chance as his career is “over”.

Racing for Williams before joining Mercedes where he won 10 Grands Prix and twice finished runner-up in the Drivers’ standings, Bottas has said he’s enjoying life more as a Sauber driver.
Rating the Finn’s first 14 races a mere “4.5”, the Dutch pundit told Formule 1 Magazine: “We can expect more from a driver like Valtteri Bottas.

“It’s always difficult when you go from the best team to the worst team, but then I’d rather a young talent get a chance there.

“Bottas just has to stop, it’s over! Zero world championship points, get out of here!”

“I know he doesn’t have the tools, but he chose it himself. I honestly think it’s a shame.

“Do something else. Go to Finland and do fun things or make funny videos and give this seat to someone else who needs it to gain experience and grow.”

He even went as far as to accuse Bottas of being the bollard blocking 2022 Formula 2 champion Felipe Drugovich from having a spot on the 2025 grid with the Brazilian one of several drivers linked to the vacant Audi race seat.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/mot...1&cvid=f4b157fcb67847a299659cfeb75b3423&ei=61
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Abizzz believes Tom Coronel should make space for someone relevant to say something interesting.

F1 without a Finn just isn't F1.
 
- The FIA’s July update to the 2024 Technical Regulations clarified that any system intentionally creating asymmetrical braking on a single axle is banned, leading to speculation about Red Bull's performance drop.
"Any system or mechanism that can systematically or intentionally produce asymmetric braking pairs on a given axle is prohibited."
- This clarification was already introduced in June. The F1 braking system allows pressure variation between the front and rear axles, helping drivers optimize deceleration, but the FIA clarified that asymmetrical braking between the left and right wheels on the same axle is not allowed.
- Braking torque is influenced by the disc radius, clamping force, and friction. The FIA often steps in to clarify rules when competitors notice unusual performance advantages, potentially exploiting loopholes.
- Some insiders speculate that this ban on asymmetric braking might be linked to Red Bull's recent performance issues. The theory gained momentum after Max Verstappen's rear brake disc failure during the 2024 Australian Grand Prix.
- Craig Scarborough suggests that Red Bull could have used an inertial T-valve in the rear brake system to adjust brake caliper action, improving cornering by reducing understeer. While this is unconfirmed, the theory is based on technical knowledge.
- If such a device was used before the FIA's clarification, it would have been considered legal. Adjusting brake pressure for better cornering isn't new, as seen with McLaren's third pedal on the MP4/13 in 1997, which was eventually banned.
"The inner wheels were slowed down more than the outer wheels, thus improving the car's cornering ability."
- Red Bull has remained quiet, but team mechanic Calum Nicholas expressed frustration on social media, calling the theories nonsense. He criticized those who prefer conspiracy theories over recognizing other teams' hard work in closing the gap with Red Bull.

455684432_997571002165157_638498411428415384_n.jpg
 

2024 Dutch Grand Prix weekend weather forecast​

FRIDAY, AUGUST 23 – FP1 AND FP2
Conditions: Mostly cloudy to overcast all day long. Significant chance of light showers around dawn and in the afternoon. Strong southwesterly wind with gusts up to 75 kph possible from 1100 to 1900. FP1: 19°C // FP2: 20°C
Maximum temperature expected: 21 Celsius
Minimum temperature expected: 18 Celsius
Chance of rain: 40%


SATURDAY, AUGUST 24 – FP3 AND QUALIFYING
Conditions: Mostly cloudy with a gradually increasing chance of rain through the day. Light to moderate westerly wind with gusts up to 45 kph all day long. To be confirmed. Very low confidence in the forecast. FP3: 19°C // Q: 21°C
Maximum temperature expected: 21 Celsius
Minimum temperature expected: 17 Celsius
Chance of rain: 60%


SUNDAY, AUGUST 25 – RACE
Conditions: Partly cloudy with large sunny spells. Likely dry at this range with only a slight chance of one or two light showers. Light southwesterly wind for the race. Coolest day of the week. Race start: 18°C
Maximum temperature expected: 18 Celsius
Minimum temperature expected: 15 Celsius
Chance of rain: Less than 20%

Qualifying could be interesting, wet and windy
 
pauldyson1uk said:
- The FIA’s July update to the 2024 Technical Regulations clarified that any system intentionally creating asymmetrical braking on a single axle is banned, leading to speculation about Red Bull's performance drop.
"Any system or mechanism that can systematically or intentionally produce asymmetric braking pairs on a given axle is prohibited."
- This clarification was already introduced in June. The F1 braking system allows pressure variation between the front and rear axles, helping drivers optimize deceleration, but the FIA clarified that asymmetrical braking between the left and right wheels on the same axle is not allowed.
- Braking torque is influenced by the disc radius, clamping force, and friction. The FIA often steps in to clarify rules when competitors notice unusual performance advantages, potentially exploiting loopholes.
- Some insiders speculate that this ban on asymmetric braking might be linked to Red Bull's recent performance issues. The theory gained momentum after Max Verstappen's rear brake disc failure during the 2024 Australian Grand Prix.
- Craig Scarborough suggests that Red Bull could have used an inertial T-valve in the rear brake system to adjust brake caliper action, improving cornering by reducing understeer. While this is unconfirmed, the theory is based on technical knowledge.
- If such a device was used before the FIA's clarification, it would have been considered legal. Adjusting brake pressure for better cornering isn't new, as seen with McLaren's third pedal on the MP4/13 in 1997, which was eventually banned.
"The inner wheels were slowed down more than the outer wheels, thus improving the car's cornering ability."
- Red Bull has remained quiet, but team mechanic Calum Nicholas expressed frustration on social media, calling the theories nonsense. He criticized those who prefer conspiracy theories over recognizing other teams' hard work in closing the gap with Red Bull.

455684432_997571002165157_638498411428415384_n.jpg
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An FIA spokesman told Motorsport.com: "There is no truth that any team was using such a system."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/...ias-f1-asymmetric-brake-rule-change/10645992/

To add to this, a Red Bull mechanic has also rubbished claims that they use such a system.
 
ArjenIsM3 said:
An FIA spokesman told Motorsport.com: "There is no truth that any team was using such a system."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/...ias-f1-asymmetric-brake-rule-change/10645992/

To add to this, a Red Bull mechanic has also rubbished claims that they use such a system.
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To be honest, Calum Nicholas is hardly going to come out and say 'Yeah - you got us' is he? :lol:

I would also take what the FIA says as a pinch of salt. Making in season technical changes is rare and the fact they issued it now to combat 2026 regulations is bizarre. It could be one or a few teams that have been doing this, but an in season change of technical directive is usually designed to combat performance.
 
F-Red said:
To be honest, Calum Nicholas is hardly going to come out and say 'Yeah - you got us' is he? :lol:

I would also take what the FIA says as a pinch of salt. Making in season technical changes is rare and the fact they issued it now to combat 2026 regulations is bizarre. It could be one or a few teams that have been doing this, but an in season change of technical directive is usually designed to combat performance.
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Sure, but neither party really has an incentive to stick it under the carpet and the claims come from analysts saying well this could be something that Red Bull have been using and if they did and had to remove the system it could explain why they no longer have a performance advantage. In other words, speculation. But I've seen a lot of (shock awe, primarily English) people online take it as gospel and claim Red Bull were cheating etc., so I thought I'd provide some balance.
 
the fia have never done anything ever that would cause any of us to not trust something they say.
 
ArjenIsM3 said:
An FIA spokesman told Motorsport.com: "There is no truth that any team was using such a system."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/...ias-f1-asymmetric-brake-rule-change/10645992/

To add to this, a Red Bull mechanic has also rubbished claims that they use such a system.
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I would not expect anything other than, it was not us, but there must be a reason why the FIA changed the regulations half way though the season, in the past they have changed mid season to stop teams breaking regulations.
My own thought s is , yeah RB have been lets say bending the regulations, but also maybe not the only team and the change is , we know you are doing it, you know we know you are doing it, now stop.
 
ArjenIsM3 said:
But I've seen a lot of (shock awe, primarily English) people online take it as gospel and claim Red Bull were cheating etc., so I thought I'd provide some balance.
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It's the most logical argument so far for Red Bull performance drop off based on the timeline of events. This technical directive coming in during the summer shutdown is somewhat of a smokescreen to close the door after the horse has bolted.

If you were to provide some proper balance, what is the reason for the performance drop off if it isn't this?
 
F-Red said:
If you were to provide some proper balance, what is the reason for the performance drop off if it isn't this?
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max being found out when he has some competition. he just can’t bring himself to say it.
 
F-Red said:
It's the most logical argument so far for Red Bull performance drop off based on the timeline of events. This technical directive coming in during the summer shutdown is somewhat of a smokescreen to close the door after the horse has bolted.

If you were to provide some proper balance, what is the reason for the performance drop off if it isn't this?
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I'm not saying it's not logical. It could well be that they have been using it. Problem is that the evidence is circumstantial at best. Nobody, maybe not even Red Bull considering the correlation issues they've been having, really knows how they lost their advantage. The other teams have gotten quicker that's for sure. Red Bull have come out and said the new concept and the updates they've introduced this year haven't been what they expected and they've taken the concept too far. They have made the car very hard to drive, very hard to set up properly and sensitive to changing conditions. Is there an analysis out there that properly confirms Red Bull have lost a lot of speed under braking and corner entry that cannot be attributed to other changes to the car?

rimaldo said:
max being found out when he has some competition. he just can’t bring himself to say it.
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FFS :lol:
 
Change or not, Zandvoort this weekend and that is literally guaranteed "Duh duh duh duh Max Verstappen" land.
 
ArjenIsM3 said:
I'm not saying it's not logical. It could well be that they have been using it. Problem is that the evidence is circumstantial at best. Nobody, maybe not even Red Bull considering the correlation issues they've been having, really knows how they lost their advantage. The other teams have gotten quicker that's for sure. Red Bull have come out and said the new concept and the updates they've introduced this year haven't been what they expected and they've taken the concept too far. They have made the car very hard to drive, very hard to set up properly and sensitive to changing conditions. Is there an analysis out there that properly confirms Red Bull have lost a lot of speed under braking and corner entry that cannot be attributed to other changes to the car?
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I don't think there's much in the way of analysis on braking and corner entry - I'll have a look as that will be an interesting data point in this debate. Wache last year said that RB20 development improvements was factoring in low speed corners as he saw that as an area of weakness, so the high speed. Indeed others have increased, but Red Bull have increased also. We could be seeing Red Bull getting to the very fine marginal gains compared to bigger gains from other teams as the natural convergence of the regulations happens.

The only logical notion I've seen this year around cornering is the complaints from Verstappen and Perez around understeer. Bahrain and Saudi were fine, murmurings in Australia, vocal in Japan and China. Miami was obvious but there was a change in story around whether the floor damage actually had any impact to his car, and then the Red Bull press release talking of understeer due to floor damage.

The reason why I'm confident, is that this harks back to the time when McLaren were running the additional brake pedal in the car in 97. That system generated similar results to the concept the FIA have just banned in their technical directive with it's main benefit being the ability to improve handling mid-corners. It makes a car that oversteers/understeers easier to fix whilst driving. I could be going down a full conspiracy route here, but Verstappen's corner balance was more of a concern to him from Japan onwards, post Australia. Understeer would never be a problem with the solution the FIA has just banned, but suddenly the RB20 had fallen into a setup challenge at most circuits, which is pretty uncharacteristic from Red Bull.

Time will tell, but there's not enough out there for me to suggest that this isn't a Red Bull dropping the ball and other teams improving scenario. Some wings have been clipped somewhere. That said, I expect a close battle between Verstappen and the McLarens this weekend for the victory.
 
F-Red said:
I don't think there's much in the way of analysis on braking and corner entry - I'll have a look as that will be an interesting data point in this debate. Wache last year said that RB20 development improvements was factoring in low speed corners as he saw that as an area of weakness, so the high speed. Indeed others have increased, but Red Bull have increased also. We could be seeing Red Bull getting to the very fine marginal gains compared to bigger gains from other teams as the natural convergence of the regulations happens.

The only logical notion I've seen this year around cornering is the complaints from Verstappen and Perez around understeer. Bahrain and Saudi were fine, murmurings in Australia, vocal in Japan and China. Miami was obvious but there was a change in story around whether the floor damage actually had any impact to his car, and then the Red Bull press release talking of understeer due to floor damage.

The reason why I'm confident, is that this harks back to the time when McLaren were running the additional brake pedal in the car in 97. That system generated similar results to the concept the FIA have just banned in their technical directive with it's main benefit being the ability to improve handling mid-corners. It makes a car that oversteers/understeers easier to fix whilst driving. I could be going down a full conspiracy route here, but Verstappen's corner balance was more of a concern to him from Japan onwards, post Australia. Understeer would never be a problem with the solution the FIA has just banned, but suddenly the RB20 had fallen into a setup challenge at most circuits, which is pretty uncharacteristic from Red Bull.

Time will tell, but there's not enough out there for me to suggest that this isn't a Red Bull dropping the ball and other teams improving scenario. Some wings have been clipped somewhere. That said, I expect a close battle between Verstappen and the McLarens this weekend for the victory.
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Agreed this would be a very interesting analysis. But I don't know if it can be done considering there isn't data of the alleged two specs of the braking system on the same circuit / corner. I think the RB20 has been difficult to setup right from the start. As soon as the other teams got their new cars dialled in and Red Bull had to push the RB20 to the limit to keep up they were struggling. I think with the banned solution theoretically understeer could still be a problem mid-corner and on corner exit but it wouldn't be a problem on corner entry as that's when you would still be on the brakes. But maybe there's something wrong with my logic here, I'm definitely no expert on these things :lol:

In other news, McLaren have brought a major upgrade to Zandvoort with revised front and rear suspension, new brake scoop and revised floor edges and also a new high downforce rear wing and matching beam wings for these type of circuits. Williams too have brought a major upgrade, their first of the season.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-reveals-six-key-changes-in-dutch-gp-f1-upgrade/10646744/

This news comes after Red Bull are apparently ditching some of their "upgraded" parts to see if that improves the handling of the car, see above. Seems to me their problems are very similar to what Mercedes were going through with the start of these regulations where their simulations don't correlate with real world performance which could potentially set them back pretty far if this continues. If McLaren have hit the nail on the head with these upgrades they could be miles ahead now. Will definitely be an interesting weekend!
 
pauldyson1uk said:
FP1 has started, it’s wet and windy , won’t be much help in car set up, meant to be dry mostly for the race.
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This should make Sunday a bit more interesting, there's very little data they can get today that will be relevant for Sunday.
 
McLaren with raft of upgrades, the weather will not help them, they want to get out and test them.
If they have got it right , this could be a game changer for the season.
Mercedes and RB have had problems with upgrades, putting them on and finding it makes the car worse.
McLaren are seriously in a very strong position if the upgrades work, I would say maybe the team to beat .
 
pauldyson1uk said:
McLaren with raft of upgrades, the weather will not help them, they want to get out and test them.
If they have got it right , this could be a game changer for the season.
Mercedes and RB have had problems with upgrades, putting them on and finding it makes the car worse.
McLaren are seriously in a very strong position if the upgrades work, I would say maybe the team to beat .
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They already had the fastest car prior to the upgrades. They are already the team to beat. If their upgrades are good they will be miles ahead.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
McLaren with raft of upgrades, the weather will not help them, they want to get out and test them.
If they have got it right , this could be a game changer for the season.
Mercedes and RB have had problems with upgrades, putting them on and finding it makes the car worse.
McLaren are seriously in a very strong position if the upgrades work, I would say maybe the team to beat .
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I think they may have no choice but to remove them for this weekend. They aren't going to get any dry data in free practise as it stands. Mercedes did that for spa didn't they? Took the upgrades off or was that Hungary?

Big if, that the upgrades will improve the car. Ferrari, Merc have shown there's a maximum limit that the suspension can handle from the downforce the floor generates before it results in proposing OR as RedBull have shown the upgrade provides no extra points of downforce at all.
 
I see there weather just got good enough for McLaren.
 
I really wish they could widen or lengten Zandvoort some more. The setting (weather included) and banking provide for a pretty unique challenge. Unfortunately though (tho in some ways fair play to protecting taxpayer money, the environment etc) most European tracks can almost impossibly compete anymore with the big money of the tracks outside of it.
 
Redplane said:
I really wish they could widen or lengten Zandvoort some more. The setting (weather included) and banking provide for a pretty unique challenge. Unfortunately though (tho in some ways fair play to protecting taxpayer money, the environment etc) most European tracks can almost impossibly compete anymore with the big money of the tracks outside of it.
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As ever the answer is smaller cars.
 
Not sure how representative FP2 was, but we could do with a Norris win and a Verstappen DNF to bring that 78p gap down and make the 2nd half of season more interesting in terms of a title race.
 
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