I've no idea what that criteria is about. Winning across more than one era? How about he wins another 4 or 5 World Championships before we start having this conversation?
F1 2022 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
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I've no idea what that criteria is about. Winning across more than one era? How about he wins another 4 or 5 World Championships before we start having this conversation?
Oh sorry mate I think you misunderstand me here - I'm not one of those who is arguing Verstappen has a GOAT case and I agree he needs a more robust CV. I just thought the argument that he hasn't done it in multiple eras is flawed because this year's car is a far more drastic change when compared to previous regulations.
Personally I don't think it's crazy to suggest that Verstappen is on a trajectory to reach the absolute apex of the sport. But I also think it's crazy to throw his name in there amongst the greats at this point in his career.
I don't think you can really mark this year as a new era because, Mercedes aside, the running order is much the same as before. When I think back to past major rule changes the teams have been thrown all over the place.
Whilst the way the cars generate downforce has changed, performance is already about back to 2021 levels ie not changed much and the engines are the biggest factor and they haven't changed at all. Newey is a chassis and aero guy after all.
Sorry my bad for not being clear. I was agreeing with you. I'm not sure what the era thing is all about or how relevant it is at this point but I agree it seems flawed given the massive changes we've seen this year.
Literally there is not a single team in the same place they finished in the 2021 constructors as they currently stand thus far this year?
Ah no worries mate! Hard to keep up with this thread hah
He's doing well with the best car on the grid, but I've heard this all before.Lots of people are, though. Matter of time brother. Be glad you're watching history in the making
Vettel was the new GOAT until he lost the best car and then became just another very good driver.
Time will tell as you say, to be the GOAT you need to win 7 championships+ and have a serious amount of domination to even get close to Lewis or Micheal.
You also need luck on your side and good decision making to be in the best team at the right time.
Red Bull with Honda seem like the perfect team for him right now, but things could change. Let's see how it plays out.
You don't need 7+ championships to be in with a shout of being the GOAT.
Greatest doesn't mean most decorated.....
Senna is many people's GOAT for example.
Circumstances for all driver are different.
Right now Max has had 2 championship potential cars. So all he could possibly have won is 2.
It's always important to remember in F1 you can only win as many championships as long as you are given a championship potential car.
So for me GOAT and most decorated can certainly be different things. Just like in football.
Like for example if someone came into F1 and won like 5 seasons on the trot in their first 5 years or something and then retired they might be considered the GOAT by many despite winning less total.
You are right though that Vettels standing would be a lot higher and rightly so had he left the sport straight after winning 4 titles.
Stuff like this is also why there isn't really a greatest as it's not a definable metric. It's an opinion.
Remove those Mercedes teams and other than AlphaTauri the other teams are in exactly the same position relative to last year. Red Bull ahead of Ferrari ahead of Alpine ahead of AlphaTauri ahead of Haas. The Mercedes teams are in the same order too, just a spot or two down on last season and so will be right back where they were once the engine is sorted out.
Senna's case is a bit different, he was a fairly late starter, up against another potential GOAT in Prost who took championships himself, and of course died early still in his prime.
As you say though it's not a definable metric, but I don't think anybody would argue Hamilton/Schumacher/Senna/Prost are the clear stand outs in the discussion.
It’s way to early to call max GOAT. Sure, he has the potential. Let’s wait 2-3 years, aye guys?
For what it’s worth. Despite only winning 2 WDC people still consider Alonso top tier. Maybe not GOAT (though he went up against my favourite driver and won). I’d say it could be the same for max, raw fiery pace.
He has definitely showed a heck a lot of maturity this season though. Knows just the correct amount to push his car. Begrudgingly, I don’t see Charles at his level yet. Maybe in raw pace, but that little bit extra, personality wise. I don’t see it.
For what it’s worth. Despite only winning 2 WDC people still consider Alonso top tier. Maybe not GOAT (though he went up against my favourite driver and won). I’d say it could be the same for max, raw fiery pace.
He has definitely showed a heck a lot of maturity this season though. Knows just the correct amount to push his car. Begrudgingly, I don’t see Charles at his level yet. Maybe in raw pace, but that little bit extra, personality wise. I don’t see it.
Alonso and Max are in the Tier 2 for me at the moment with Vettel/Lauda etc. and behind the tier 1 big boys like Senna, Hamilton, Schumacher and Prost. I'd say Max has the potential to be better than everyone but we know that F1 is about luck sometimes with the car or your movements from team to team so we will see.
Agree with this. Right now Max just simply hasn't had enough top cars to be in the tier 1 but he is getting closer each day.
That said in terms of peak operating level I think he has for sure matched Lewis at his peak. Won't compare to the others because different eras.
Both now with a max of 5 consecutive wins. Not to mention he started from P7 P10 P14 in 3 of those 5.
Both now with 11 wins in a single season which Max looks likely to beat.
Max up to 31 wins as well. All Max needs is another few years at this level and to be given the right car another few times and he is in the tier 1. Will he stick around that long is the question? He mentions retiring early quite a lot and as he says he has nothing to prove anymore. Shown how great he is so only reason to continue is enjoyment and the money really.
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max has never won a race whilst going backwards. that really separates him from the true greats.
You’re wrong. He was going backwards for 0.2 seconds in that spin in Hungary. He then won.
yeah but for every one of those you’ve got, you’ve also got times like him hitting hamilton at silverstone then going backwards and binning it.
I think the difference between Max and Lewis is that Lewis has always had something to prove. As the only black driver ever in F1 and being from a working class background, the adversity he has had to overcome to get where he has got to is remarkable and very different to the 'easy' route Max has been given. Of course you need to replicate that talent with hard work and on the track but I think that's probably a reason why Lewis wants to grind everything he absolutely can out of his talent whereas Max is indifferent to retiring early.
Has Max won a race on 3 wheels though?
Lewis may have had something to "prove" early on in his career as the world is fecked up but man has had nothing to prove for a long time in regards to formula 1.
Both drivers earned their way onto the grid and both proved themselves in a class of their own.
Really I think the reason Max is more likely to retire early is he is a fan of other forms of Motorsport. He is massively into SIM racing and it's very likely he takes a crack at endurance racing after formula 1.
I'm sure Lewis is also a fan or other Motorsport too but not to the extent of Max which makes sense for him as he has a lot of other endeavours etc. Also not everyone has the same interests of course.
Max did have to grind too though. He had Jos for a father after all so the pressure put on him was massive from such a young age.
And then all the doubters when Max got into formula 1 so young as well. Though he shut them up instantly similarly to Lewis with anyone who doubted him
You know, it's interesting, because the one thing I thought this thread was missing in the last few weeks was another Lewis v Max debate.
Eh it's not really Lewis versus Max debate so to speak. No one was here saying oh Lewis is actually shit or Max is shit or anything crazy haha.
There is no F1 for a few weeks. We just discussing records, peaks, retirement etc
It ain't a battle.
Also they are the two best drivers currently in the sport and the two biggest talents since Schumacher. They will always be discussed.
The problem is that the debate is unanswerable.
Obviously Max has won very little in F1 compared with Lewis. But he also has the potential to be as good as Lewis at his peak or even surpass him. But to do that, he will have to make good car choices and have the will to keep going after numerous titles. He will also need to control some of his hot-headedness that we've seen when he is under pressure.
We will find out in a few years' time. But as we don't have enough data yet, the debate is going to go around in the same continuous circles.
This is a new era, as this years cars are completely different to last years cars. Biggest rule changes in 40 years. The aero has completely changed. We have new 18 inch tyres. The suspension has been completely revised. Different fuel additives and PU lock-in (of this years PU) till 2026. Other than the monoque everything has changed on the cars. We also have new rules and limits on CFD and windtunnel time. New budget constraints.
If thats not a new era, i dont know what is.
We have data to discuss peak performance as longevity is irrelevant in that.
Max's hot headedness is also completely overblown.
Lewis was an agressive driver early on and when he needed to be, then stopped when he didn't need to be. Now that his car is worse he is being more aggressive slightly and causing a few more incidents than what we are used to seeing from him.
We are seeing the same with Max right now. Was agressive when he needed to be and now is not agressive because he doesn't need to be. And it will likely switch back again at some point.
It's nothing compared to the F1 of old.
All drivers are hot headed at times. Lewis Zandvoort, Alonso in Spa the list goes on and on.
I think those tiers at present are absolutely spot on.
Red Bull could possibly have another 2 or 3 years of dominance, much like the Vettel era and gets Max to 4/5 titles by then. If he wins each of those by a considerable margin, similar to what he is nailed on to do this season, then I would consider him amongst the tier 1s.
Alonso is tier 1, no question
Max cultists are so odd. They refuse to ever hear anything negative about him or that he's not perfect. Do I have to preface every comment by mentioning other drivers' faults to spare feelings? Hamilton fans can be weird too, but I don't think even the most ardent jump to his rescue and deny he has faults in anything like the same way.
Anyone remotely neutral could see that Max sometimes takes things too far and has got too hot headed in the past. He's not aggressive now, although this could be because he's winning comfortably and is under no pressure. It wasn't the same earlier in the season when Leclerc was ahead. If he doesn't take things too far next season and wins a genuinely close title fight, he'll be a step closer to being a perfect driver and closer in the eyes of many to GOAT status.
If he wins a title with a genuinely competitive number two, it would also strengthen the argument.
It's also a very strange conversation to mention peak performance over longevity in a conversation about the GOAT. Obviously, it is harder to continue to win multiple titles, than it is to win one and to be winning titles over a decade is more impressive than doing it over a shorter period of time. There is a reason why even Vettel is no longer mentioned in GOAT discussions.
He lost to a pre-peak Hamilton at his peak in the same car. Alonso is a fantastic driver, but he's nowhere close to the GOAT.
Peak vs longevity is not strange at all to discuss in goat discussions, what do you mean? Jordan vs LeBron is pretty much peak vs longevity (MJ wins ofc).
Anyway it's premature now cause Max hasn't had competitive cars until last season. The 2 times he did he's winning the title. This year with completely different regs than last. I don't think it's far fetched to predict that Max will win much more in his career.
Max is not in the Hamilton, Schumacher tier yet if he would retire today. Talent wise I have no doubt he belongs there, but he's going to have to prove it over the next couple years.
That's an incredible oversimplification - and stop using nonsense terms like 'goat'
My word. Cultist.... Really.....
A number of factors define longevity and both drivers are still driving hence why currently any longevity based conversation is somewhat pointless.
Peak/Comparing individuals best seasons or races etc can certainly be a very relevant discussion at the moment though.
Spot on here. Only thing Max is really missing from compared the tier 1s so to speak now is longevity.
Sure the Man is about to equal Alonso's wins this season.
Basically I think the tiers differ slightly if you factor in just peak or peak and longevity as they do in football.
Take Brazilian Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc.
And Vettel being the perfect F1 example. Top top tier peak but tier 2 or 3 career considering the drop off and everything that happened.
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Tier 1 : Fangio, Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Hamilton.
Tier 2 : Clark, Lauda, Piquet, Stewart, Alonso, Mansell, Verstappen
Tier 3 : Vettel, Rosberg, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Hill,
Is this fair? I don't rate Vettel that highly. Been beaten by 2 teammates in Ricciardo and Leclerc who are good drivers but not great drivers. He hasnt dominated his teammates like a 4 time champion is supposed to.
Tier 2 : Clark, Lauda, Piquet, Stewart, Alonso, Mansell, Verstappen
Tier 3 : Vettel, Rosberg, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Hill,
Is this fair? I don't rate Vettel that highly. Been beaten by 2 teammates in Ricciardo and Leclerc who are good drivers but not great drivers. He hasnt dominated his teammates like a 4 time champion is supposed to.
Who else is in tier 1 with him though?
I would say peak Vettel and possibly the current Max are on the same level as Alonso but the likes of Hamilton and Schumacher are one above.
Jordan won 6 NBA titles over a decade, and even took a year out to play baseball, before returning to win 3 more titles. In a league where the best team gets penalised and there are strict budget caps to make it as competitive as possible. He's got all-time MVP, scoring titles and scoring average records, plus won defensive accolades too. That's not the same as saying longevity doesn't matter; the opposite in fact.
But I think we're making the same point in different ways, as I completely agree with your final paragraph.
It's not a perfect analogy as slower drivers can win over a whole season (e.g. Rosberg in 2017), but it is the best comparison there is, given the massive discrepancy between different cars and teams.
I'm yet to hear a convincing argument why Alonso is in the same tier as Schumacher and Hamilton, but I like him, so would be happy to hear them.
And re: 'GOAT' I'm echoing the term used by others to make it clear what I am referring to, but happy to numerous letter instead of 4 if you'd prefer.
Clark probably tier 1. Agree with the rest.
I think this is fair but I would put Vettel in tier 2.
Alonso has outperformed teammates over the course of his career to a greater extent than any other driver in history.
https://f1-facts.com/stats/drivers/comparison-points
There is almost no metric to compare drivers across different teams. Using championships or wins or podiums tells us very little about true driving skill. The only thing we can look at is performance against teammates - and I will admit that is flawed too, given we have no baseline for the standard of teammate.
Saying Alonso isn't among the top drivers ever because of 2007 is borderline idiotic.
https://f1-facts.com/stats/drivers/comparison-points
There is almost no metric to compare drivers across different teams. Using championships or wins or podiums tells us very little about true driving skill. The only thing we can look at is performance against teammates - and I will admit that is flawed too, given we have no baseline for the standard of teammate.
Saying Alonso isn't among the top drivers ever because of 2007 is borderline idiotic.
How long have you all been fans of F1? I just want to make sure I'm not discussing with Americans who have jumped on the train in the last decade or so.
Apart from one season against Ricciardo and one against Leclerc, Vettel has been massively dominant over his teammates. There's few drivers at their peak who I'd rather have than Vettel, if the car was on pole. He's comfortably in that second rung. Putting him in the same tier as the others you have in there is totally wrong.
You can't put Prost in the same tier as Senna either. Clark is also tier 1. There's a lot I disagree with there, but fair play for posting.