Mansell is tier 2 might be the biggest problem on that list actually. He's borderline tier 3 at best.
F1 2022 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
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the problem with a lot of the older drivers is that they drove little bitch cars. it’s even referenced in their names; juan manuel faggio, alain worst. that makes it impossible to compare them to the likes of 8 times welled champion lewis hamilton and *counts fingers* one time gifted champion max verstappen.
Which teammates are those? Webber? That's hardly saying much. Webber would have been crushed by any decent driver.
He has also never won a race from lower than third. Verstappen has already done that like 3 times this season. So have the other tier 2 drivers I believe.
Vettel could deliver over a lap in the V8 era but he never demonstrated he can race in a pack and when his car wasn't the best anymore he started making mistakes and spinning every two races. I remember the 2010-2013 period well. Hamilton once said that he would miss four apexes in a lap and still go pole. That is the level of advantage he had over the other cars. Great qualifier at his peak. Never a great racer and yes getting beat even twice by these two is a black mark. You can get beat by Hamilton or Alonso but by Ricciardo?? Who himself was forced to leave Red Bull because of Verstappen and gets humiliated by Norris? not a tier 2 for me.
Prost is considered as Senna's contemporary and main rival. You can't have one without the other in the tier system.
Not being faster than Senna is no shame. The "Professor" was great and is absolutely a tier 1 driver.
Having read the last few pages but if anyone suggests Max is the GOAT is rather stupid or naive, probably both. Has he the capabilities? Yes of course he does but Christ, he’s not even won a world championship ( on merit ) yet, this will be his first one which is very much deserved even though I can’t stand the Cnut.
So...if you remove 40% of the grid then it's the same directionally?
Mate come on, it is a stretch at best to say the running order is the same.
I think he did enough to be a tier 2. 7th most wins. Took on and won in the era of Senna and Prost and won direct battles against them.
Thats more to do with the standard of his teammates.
Apart from Hamilton, the rest of his teammates were either past their best or average at best.
And that site has some dodgy stats, Lewis won Rosberg by 59 points in 2015, but they have Rosberg outperforming Lewis
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There's nothing to suggest that's the case
Alonso had shite team mates until he hit Lewis, then he had shite again until Massa who was decent, Kimi who was past his sell by date and Button where they drove around in a GP2 car.
Just like in football, you cant compare drivers of different eras. In the 1950s the likes of fangio didnt have seatbeats and the done thing when going to crash was to jump out of your car to saftey!
1980s cars had no power steering, manual gearboxes. They required a extrodinary level of brute strength to get them around the track.
Drivers didnt start in f1 their mid to late twenties. Reliability was a joke, engines running at 18,000 rpm regularly blew up. Alan Prost lost a WDC because Renault were to cheap to replace a 38pence part. Which kept failing race after race.
Nelson Piquet didnt feature in the tier list on the other page, but how many drivers have won the WDC with 3 different teams in arguably the greatest era of f1 the 1980s?
If you listen to Beyond the Grid podcast where Tom Arnold, interviews ex-racing drivers of all eras as well as others involved in F1. You realise how many fantastic drivers didnt win a WDC, due to bad luck or they or they were killed. So many f1 drivers died on a regular basis until Senna's death, shocked f1 into action.
For me a tier list personally only works by era of racing. Also a racing driver can be judged by 3 factors;
1) racecraft
2) single lap pace
3) team building
You could for example argue that Alonso is brillant at racecraft, one of the very best of his generation. Single lap pace not the best. Also his team building is poor.
You could take those three metrics and apply them to others. Id say team building was schmachers greatest strength as a driver. He took that to levels not see before, which are now the norm for any f1 driver.
Lewis is sensational over one lap, probably one of the quickest ive seen. His racecraft is very very good, though id say alonso edges that over lewis. Team building wise he is also very good. However not at schmacher level for team building.
I think its too early to judge max, we need to see him at another team to judge his team building. Maybe at ferrari or audi. He has really good single lap pace, his racecraft can only really be judged when he gets older and wiser and is put in more diffcut situations than this season so far.
1980s cars had no power steering, manual gearboxes. They required a extrodinary level of brute strength to get them around the track.
Drivers didnt start in f1 their mid to late twenties. Reliability was a joke, engines running at 18,000 rpm regularly blew up. Alan Prost lost a WDC because Renault were to cheap to replace a 38pence part. Which kept failing race after race.
Nelson Piquet didnt feature in the tier list on the other page, but how many drivers have won the WDC with 3 different teams in arguably the greatest era of f1 the 1980s?
If you listen to Beyond the Grid podcast where Tom Arnold, interviews ex-racing drivers of all eras as well as others involved in F1. You realise how many fantastic drivers didnt win a WDC, due to bad luck or they or they were killed. So many f1 drivers died on a regular basis until Senna's death, shocked f1 into action.
For me a tier list personally only works by era of racing. Also a racing driver can be judged by 3 factors;
1) racecraft
2) single lap pace
3) team building
You could for example argue that Alonso is brillant at racecraft, one of the very best of his generation. Single lap pace not the best. Also his team building is poor.
You could take those three metrics and apply them to others. Id say team building was schmachers greatest strength as a driver. He took that to levels not see before, which are now the norm for any f1 driver.
Lewis is sensational over one lap, probably one of the quickest ive seen. His racecraft is very very good, though id say alonso edges that over lewis. Team building wise he is also very good. However not at schmacher level for team building.
I think its too early to judge max, we need to see him at another team to judge his team building. Maybe at ferrari or audi. He has really good single lap pace, his racecraft can only really be judged when he gets older and wiser and is put in more diffcut situations than this season so far.
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Nice post. Agreed with most of that.
That's why for me Schumacher, Hamilton and Senna stand out from the rest in the modern era. Senna has my heart but Ham/Sch have the stats, the titles and the talent to go with it.
Alonso is having better season performance wise this season than Lewis is. Hamilton will have better career(already has) when they are both retired, but you can't call him nowhere near to GOAT(or translated as nowhere near to Hamilton).
Would nitpick on the three factors but you are correct in other assessments.
Massa’s standards dropped a lot after his injury. He went from fighting for podiums to just getting points.
Not a surprise really, once you realise you are mortal and your confidence is knocked you'll never be the same again.
Poor guy just couldn't really get over that psychological barrier again
I'd have Clark in Tier 1 and drop Mansell and Verstappen down a tier. Clark was by all accounts as good as anybody who has ever been whilst Mansell didn't really do enough to be Tier 2 and Verstappen is far too early in his career to belong in that company.
I also am not sure about Prost being Tier 1 but maybe that's because I was always a Senna fan.
Point is the teams are virtually in the same order, you've just got one engine supplier that's dropped the ball. When they recover it will be back to exactly the same. Major rule changes usually mix things up more than that.
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That is very fair.
Fair list, I would have Vettel in tier 2, my only change.
I think Mansell deserves his place, I did think about Max dropping, but decided he has done just enough to be in tier 2. Prost I think also deserves his place.
It would be pretty difficult to construct a sound argument against your Tier 1.
And I would go along with Mansell in Tier 2 on the basis that he did extremely well outside of F1.
But as with trying to nominate the F1 GOAT, it is pretty meaningless because it is largely subjective due to personal preferences.
The three factors werent mine for what its worth. I think they are Ross Brawns or another ex team principal. Not sure who.
All three also raised the bar in F1 of what you expect from a race driver on the race track, off the race track and with the team themselves.
Its no coincidence that they are 3 of the hardest working drivers of their respective eras. Senna was notirious for turning up at the factory at all hours of the day and night.
Schmacher was at marinello, pumping in lap after lap between races when there were no limits on testing. To the point he'd give the test driver the day off and do the test drivers programme at marinello.
Lewis is know for being one of the very last people to leave the circuit after a grand prix. Working well into the early hours of the morning on debriefs and other stuff.
On a slighty different note, i am curious as to whether sim racing as lando and max take part in, will become more popular on the grid with the other younger drivers. Doing the hours in the team simulator is one thing. Doing sim racing in your spare time is something seperate. Is there a tangible on the track benefit for the likes of lando and max to do so?
Kids of this generation have all grown up playing F1, Gran Turismo, Forza, and other more serious sim games. I'd say it's definitely an advantage.
You can basically pick up f1 2022 and play all the modern tracks in superb detail before you even step up to the circuit. That has to be a bonus.
Yes you would have to think the amount of SIM racing max and one or two of the other drivers do is invaluable especially in this day and age where in F1 there's isn't unlimited testing.
To me what's even more crazy is how these Sims are becoming so good that drivers with the most natural ability like Max are actually competitive against professional Sim drivers who would obviously play a hell of a lot more.
If nothing else it would be keeping you reactions and stuff on point you would think.
Will probably become more and more beneficial as time goes on and things improve as well. Those haptic wheels you can get are crazy in terms of the feel you can get.
Mate you are grasping at straws. This is a fundamental shift in the way the cars work aerodynamically. As Newey said, moving back to ground-effect cars is the biggest change in 40 years.
Also, given that engine development was frozen yet apparently one manufacturer has dropped the ball further speaks towards the cars being completely different.
@Buster15 inadvertently summed up where Prost stands. Tier 1 drivers are all discussed as the GOAT. Fangio was everybody's pick until Schumacher outdid his title haul, and Senna needs no explanation. Hamilton features more and more but maybe he needs to retire first, whereas Prost is 30 years retired yet still nobody would say he was the greatest. He has to be in Tier 2 when you think of it like that.
Conversely seemingly everybody who saw Jim Clark thought he was the best they'd ever seen.
It could help with the barrier to entry in future though not a substitute.
I'd like to think if I had access to a go kart and raced around the world in my early years I could be giving Max a good challenge right now!
Some mad stats here considering most of those DNFs are mechanical or where unavoidable
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Max in the new Honda Civic Type R
Thank you for explaining this. And I do agree with you about Prost. In my view, he was extremely capable but lacked the flair and technical brilliance of Hamilton and Senna and Schumacher for example.
But as mentioned, all of this has an element of subjectivity. And that is what makes this type of thing so interesting to read individuals views.
Prost is tier 1 without a shadow of a doubt. As he wasnt flashy. Just smooth, clinical and precise he isnt regarded as highly. As good as senna was Prost was his equal. Im not even a prost fan.
From reddit:
So here is my case for Alain Prost quite possibly being the greatest of all time.
Rivals - Every great needs a strong rival, Ali famously went up against Frazier and Foreman, and Prost had strong rivals of his own. The 80's arguably had the most stacked grids in F1 history. With drivers like Prost, Senna, Mansell, Piquet, Lauda, Villeneuve, Rosberg, Arnoux, Berger, etc. all being considered legends of the sport today. Prost went up against Senna, Lauda, Mansell, Arnoux, Hill, Rosberg, Alesi in the same car and beat every single one of them at least once. He only lost to a teammate in 2 seasons of his career, which were Senna in 88 and Lauda in 84 (we'll get into those soon).
Lost Championships - Championships and general achievements are of course a big factor in any GOAT debate. Schumacher and Hamilton wouldn't be as highly regarded as they are without their 7 titles. Prost himself has 4 world championships to his name, but despite this, he is the unluckiest driver in F1 history in my humble opinion if you look at the amount and manner of championships he lost out on.
1981 - This was Prost's 2nd season in F1, driving for Reno, with Arnoux as teammate. Prost lost the championship to Piquet by 7 points that year. That season's Reno was ridiculously unreliable, with Prost enduring 9 dnf's in 15 races, which was absurd even in those days when engine and mechanical failures were commonplace. In the 6 races Prost did manage to finish, he got 3 wins two 2nd place and one 3rd placed finishes. With a more reliable car Prost walks that Championship (Piquet only had 4 dnf's).
1984 - Half a point, Alain Prost lost the 1984 championship by half a point going up against Niki Lauda at Mclaren. It remains the closest margin in a championship battle. Now I'm not saying Niki didn't deserve this title, when the margin is that close I believe both drivers deserve it. Considering this was Prost's 1st season at Mclaren, and the lack of experience he had going up against Lauda (who is one of the greatest of all time in his own right), losing by half a point isn't anything to sniff at.
1988 - I think most on here are aware of how ridiculous the 1988 points system was, but if you aren't, the best 11 results a driver had counted to the points total of the championship, and not all races. Had this season had a normal points system, then Prost would've won it by 11 points. Beating Senna in both their seasons together as teammates.
Demolishing teammates - The 1st person a F1 driver gets compared to are their teammates, and as mentioned before, Prost had some monster teammates, and he absolutely demolished a lot of them. Here are some points gaps:
1981 - Prost 43 vs Arnoux 11
1983 - Prost 57 vs Cheveer 22
1985 - Prost 69 vs Lauda 14
1986 - Prost 74 vs Rosberg 22
1990 - Prost 73 vs Mansell 37
1993 - Prost 99 vs Hill 69
From reddit:
So here is my case for Alain Prost quite possibly being the greatest of all time.
Rivals - Every great needs a strong rival, Ali famously went up against Frazier and Foreman, and Prost had strong rivals of his own. The 80's arguably had the most stacked grids in F1 history. With drivers like Prost, Senna, Mansell, Piquet, Lauda, Villeneuve, Rosberg, Arnoux, Berger, etc. all being considered legends of the sport today. Prost went up against Senna, Lauda, Mansell, Arnoux, Hill, Rosberg, Alesi in the same car and beat every single one of them at least once. He only lost to a teammate in 2 seasons of his career, which were Senna in 88 and Lauda in 84 (we'll get into those soon).
Lost Championships - Championships and general achievements are of course a big factor in any GOAT debate. Schumacher and Hamilton wouldn't be as highly regarded as they are without their 7 titles. Prost himself has 4 world championships to his name, but despite this, he is the unluckiest driver in F1 history in my humble opinion if you look at the amount and manner of championships he lost out on.
1981 - This was Prost's 2nd season in F1, driving for Reno, with Arnoux as teammate. Prost lost the championship to Piquet by 7 points that year. That season's Reno was ridiculously unreliable, with Prost enduring 9 dnf's in 15 races, which was absurd even in those days when engine and mechanical failures were commonplace. In the 6 races Prost did manage to finish, he got 3 wins two 2nd place and one 3rd placed finishes. With a more reliable car Prost walks that Championship (Piquet only had 4 dnf's).
1984 - Half a point, Alain Prost lost the 1984 championship by half a point going up against Niki Lauda at Mclaren. It remains the closest margin in a championship battle. Now I'm not saying Niki didn't deserve this title, when the margin is that close I believe both drivers deserve it. Considering this was Prost's 1st season at Mclaren, and the lack of experience he had going up against Lauda (who is one of the greatest of all time in his own right), losing by half a point isn't anything to sniff at.
1988 - I think most on here are aware of how ridiculous the 1988 points system was, but if you aren't, the best 11 results a driver had counted to the points total of the championship, and not all races. Had this season had a normal points system, then Prost would've won it by 11 points. Beating Senna in both their seasons together as teammates.
Demolishing teammates - The 1st person a F1 driver gets compared to are their teammates, and as mentioned before, Prost had some monster teammates, and he absolutely demolished a lot of them. Here are some points gaps:
1981 - Prost 43 vs Arnoux 11
1983 - Prost 57 vs Cheveer 22
1985 - Prost 69 vs Lauda 14
1986 - Prost 74 vs Rosberg 22
1990 - Prost 73 vs Mansell 37
1993 - Prost 99 vs Hill 69
In all of this discussion about GOAT F1 drivers, I do fell thank Jackie Stewart deserves more of a mention. In my view he was easily the most successful British F1 driver up to Lewis Hamilton. I am old enough to have watched and read about his long career in F1.
And while many will credit him with the very significant work he did, personally, to drive forward the safety improvements, both in the car design as well as the racing circuits themselves.
But he was also an excellent F1 driver as well. Extremely capable and extremely clever. Certainly one of the cleverest of them all.
And that was demonstrated by the long career he had while so many others died.
EDIT.
I would definitely put him ahead of Prost on pure driving capability. No doubt about that at all.
And while many will credit him with the very significant work he did, personally, to drive forward the safety improvements, both in the car design as well as the racing circuits themselves.
But he was also an excellent F1 driver as well. Extremely capable and extremely clever. Certainly one of the cleverest of them all.
And that was demonstrated by the long career he had while so many others died.
EDIT.
I would definitely put him ahead of Prost on pure driving capability. No doubt about that at all.
Never seen jackie steward drive. Before my time. Apparently very similar in style of driving to Prost, Button, Jim Clarke and George Russell. A smooth style of driving.
One thing i do find pretty amazing that prost did. Was convinving mclaren to sign Senna. Prpst knew how good senna was. But prost wanted the honda engine (best on the grid) in his mclaren. He knew if mclaren signed senna, honda would come over from Williams.
Modern day equivalent would be lewis asking mercedes to sign max as his teammate or max asking redbull to sign lewis as his teammate. 9r schmacher askimg for hakkinen as his temmate. Would never happen. Would be boxoffice viewing, but wouldnt happen. Prost did just that. Thats ballsy. Thats confidence. Thats a tier 1 driver.
One thing i do find pretty amazing that prost did. Was convinving mclaren to sign Senna. Prpst knew how good senna was. But prost wanted the honda engine (best on the grid) in his mclaren. He knew if mclaren signed senna, honda would come over from Williams.
Modern day equivalent would be lewis asking mercedes to sign max as his teammate or max asking redbull to sign lewis as his teammate. 9r schmacher askimg for hakkinen as his temmate. Would never happen. Would be boxoffice viewing, but wouldnt happen. Prost did just that. Thats ballsy. Thats confidence. Thats a tier 1 driver.
Fair point.
But I have watched them both as well as loads of other top F1 drivers.
And in my personal opinion, Jackie Stewart was better than Prost on pure driving ability.
And to be honest, the significant safety improvements that Stewart was responsible for outstrip Prost wanting Senna to drive with him at McLaren.
The safety improvements to both car and racing circuits would not have happened had Stewart not been easily the most important driver of his time.
My personal opinion.
how dare you.
Anyone actually manage to get Silverstone tickets today? I spent 6 hours in a queue and it kept crashing. They are going back on sale tomorrow. Prices crazy to. I'm considering just going to the Hungarian GP instead.
Fisichella and Trulli were no more shit than Bottas to be honest. Both were good drivers and Trulli could have been a top contender at the right team.
No, probably going to avoid todays sale now as well. They’ve put in a dynamic pricing ticketing system this year and as demand grows for tickets as do the prices. Some stand pricing went up by £160 from the pre-sale price to the opening price yesterday. Pretty cnuty move from Silverstone.
It’ll work out cheaper to do a European Grand Prix ultimately, so that’s what me and my friends will be looking at for next year.
Hungary was crazy expensive this year, altough I did watch few weeeks before the race. Same with Monza.