F1 2021 Season

Least surprising news in a while! Going to be very interesting to see how he does at Mercedes. He's such a precise driver.
Hamilton v Russell is going to be a interesting matchup too. Considering what Russell have been able to do with a Williams, you get the feeling he'll be a bigger challenge to Hamilton than Bottas have been recently.
 
RobinLFC said:
Wonder how the internal relation between Russell and Hamilton will be if / once Russell starts to get better results than Lewis. Don't think Hamilton is ready yet to be someone's #2 (but also don't really know whether Russell will immediately be as good as him as from next year either).
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I can't see Hamilton being a #2. He has the ego where he would want to go out at the top.
 
SilentWitness said:
I can't see Hamilton being a #2. He has the ego where he would want to go out at the top.
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Yeah me neither! But there'd be little he could do about it if Russell out-performs him from the get go, maybe.
 
RobinLFC said:
Wonder how the internal relation between Russell and Hamilton will be if / once Russell starts to get better results than Lewis. Don't think Hamilton is ready yet to be someone's #2 (but also don't really know whether Russell will immediately be as good as him as from next year either).
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SilentWitness said:
I can't see Hamilton being a #2. He has the ego where he would want to go out at the top.
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He will never be an official number 2, but if it gets to the point where Russell is the only one who can challenge mathmatically for a title? I think he'd be a team player.

I can't imagine a scenario though that Russell will be that far ahead, this won't be like a HAM/BOT situation. If anything it'll be Russell playing catch up.
 
Apparently this will be the first time since 2012 that a constructor fields 2 drivers with the same nationality.
In 2012 there were two: McLaren (Button + Hamilton), and Mercedes (Schumacher + Rosberg)
 
RobinLFC said:
Wonder how the internal relation between Russell and Hamilton will be if / once Russell starts to get better results than Lewis. Don't think Hamilton is ready yet to be someone's #2 (but also don't really know whether Russell will immediately be as good as him as from next year either).
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:lol: Hamilton as a no2. You may have forgotten hes a 7 x WDC, most GP wins and most PP's. This is going to be a massive test for russell not only on the track but mentally as well.

Being teammates to senna, schmacher, hamilton is one thing, beating them constantly on a regular basis is something else.

Right call by totto, russell deserves his chance he is the future of the team.
 
dinostar77 said:
:lol: Hamilton as a no2. You may have forgotten hes a 7 x WDC, most GP wins and most PP's. This is going to be a massive test for russell not only on the track but mentally as well.

Being teammates to senna, schmacher, hamilton is one thing, beating them constantly on a regular basis is something else.

Right call by totto, russell deserves his chance he is the future of the team.
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He most likely won't start a season as a proper #2 but it's not out of the realms of possibilities that let's say Russell consistently outperforms him in 2023 when Hamilton will be 38 years old. I was alluding to such a scenario when Russell would be the de facto alpha at Mercedes, and that it'd be interesting to see if Hamilton could ever settle in such a role.
 
RobinLFC said:
He most likely won't start a season as a proper #2 but it's not out of the realms of possibilities that let's say Russell consistently outperforms him in 2023 when Hamilton will be 38 years old. I was alluding to such a scenario when Russell would be the de facto alpha at Mercedes, and that it'd be interesting to see if Hamilton could ever settle in such a role.
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Nah, it’s not happening. If Hamilton was ever that far off the pace of Russell (which he won’t be), he would just retire. He has nothing left to prove, there is no way he would ever, formally or informally, play a 2nd driver role. Ever.
 
Uniquim said:
Least surprising news in a while! Going to be very interesting to see how he does at Mercedes. He's such a precise driver.
Hamilton v Russell is going to be a interesting matchup too. Considering what Russell have been able to do with a Williams, you get the feeling he'll be a bigger challenge to Hamilton than Bottas have been recently.
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Gonna be very interesting. I still think George has a bit to learn in terms of consistency to challenge someone like Hamilton over a season. I expect he’ll be there on one-lap pace, but he still has errors in his locker which should see Hamilton have the edge, initially.

I think people underestimate how far Hamilton & Verstappen are ahead of the pack. Their unrelenting race pace, ability to keep tyres alive & make minimal mistakes under huge pressure is incredible. Very good drivers (Bottas, Rosberg, Perez, Gasly) just can’t keep up with them. Hope that George is different, but it’ll be a big jump for him.

The new formula could change all of that next year though. The driving styles of Hamilton & Max might not be suited and become a bit of a leveller.
 
dinostar77 said:
:lol: Hamilton as a no2. You may have forgotten hes a 7 x WDC, most GP wins and most PP's. This is going to be a massive test for russell not only on the track but mentally as well.

Being teammates to senna, schmacher, hamilton is one thing, beating them constantly on a regular basis is something else.

Right call by totto, russell deserves his chance he is the future of the team.
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Exactly. Agree with all of that.
 
unbelievable that Lewis is being even mentioned as a No2.
Lewis will be a force to recon with for a few more years yet, he will want to add number 8 to his titles.
His 8th title will be maybe his hardest, there is plenty of young blood after him.
I still see the title race being Max and Lewis for at least 2 more seasons.
Russell is a better driver than Bottas and Mercedes will be a better team next season.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
unbelievable that Lewis is being even mentioned as a No2.
Lewis will be a force to recon with for a few more years yet, he will want to add number 8 to his titles.
His 8th title will be maybe his hardest, there is plenty of young blood after him.
I still see the title race being Max and Lewis for at least 2 more seasons.
Russell is a better driver than Bottas and Mercedes will be a better team next season.
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That's not what happened at all, I said "Wonder how the internal relation between Russell and Hamilton will be if / once Russell starts to get better results than Lewis", I never said it would even happen at all. It would just be interesting to see, and it's not impossible either. Russell is an excellent driver imo.
 
I wouldn't be shocked if Russell has a very clear clause in his contract that he's number 2 driver. Delighted to see him get his chance at Mercedes

Don't they always say their drivers are allowed to race, it will be interesting if Russell gets good results if they still allow it.

If I was McLaren, I'd perhaps have looked at Bottas over Ricciardo, as until this season he's usually been fairly consistent at picking up points and podiums. In my opinion, Ricciardo has been inconsistent at McLaren. I know he's another with a team mate well above his level, but he's either had decent results or shocking ones.
 
RobinLFC said:
That's not what happened at all, I said "Wonder how the internal relation between Russell and Hamilton will be if / once Russell starts to get better results than Lewis", I never said it would even happen at all. It would just be interesting to see, and it's not impossible either. Russell is an excellent driver imo.
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Let's wait for him to start getting points regularly before we start dreaming of him out-performing a 7 times WDC over a season.

It's one thing to drive without any pressure because the Williams expectation is just to beat out the Haas / Alfa. It's another thing when your expected target should be a podium each race. Loads of drivers fail to make that step up.
 
elmo said:
Let's wait for him to start getting points regularly before we start dreaming of him out-performing a 7 times WDC over a season.

It's one thing to drive without any pressure because the Williams expectation is just to beat out the Haas / Alfa. It's another thing when your expected target should be a podium each race. Loads of drivers fail to make that step up.
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Well he was on his way to victory in Bahrain in what was his first race for Mercedes last year on a two-day notice, so at least the very limited sample size has been encouraging. But yeah agreed that it's a whole other thing to do it consistently, I just think he has it in him.
 
RobinLFC said:
He most likely won't start a season as a proper #2 but it's not out of the realms of possibilities that let's say Russell consistently outperforms him in 2023 when Hamilton will be 38 years old. I was alluding to such a scenario when Russell would be the de facto alpha at Mercedes, and that it'd be interesting to see if Hamilton could ever settle in such a role.
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You seem to forget that the car is built around Hamiltons driving style. As is the RB around Max and Mclaren around Lando.

So unless Russell either has the same driving style (he doesn't), he will need to adapt his driving style. That could take 1 race or 6 or all season. Just see how much difficulty Danny Ric and Perez have had adjusting to the car in their new respective teams.
 
dinostar77 said:
You seem to forget that the car is built around Hamiltons driving style. As is the RB around Max and Mclaren around Lando.

So unless Russell either has the same driving style (he doesn't), he will need to adapt his driving style. That could take 1 race or 6 or all season. Just see how much difficulty Danny Ric and Perez have had adjusting to the car in their new respective teams.
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See above, he certainly didn't need much time last season.

Once again, I'm not saying it's likely or anything, just that I think it's possible. No worries if you rate Russell lower / Hamilton higher.
 
United Hobbit said:
I wouldn't be shocked if Russell has a very clear clause in his contract that he's number 2 driver. Delighted to see him get his chance at Mercedes

Don't they always say their drivers are allowed to race, it will be interesting if Russell gets good results if they still allow it.

If I was McLaren, I'd perhaps have looked at Bottas over Ricciardo, as until this season he's usually been fairly consistent at picking up points and podiums. In my opinion, Ricciardo has been inconsistent at McLaren. I know he's another with a team mate well above his level, but he's either had decent results or shocking ones.
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Danny Ric is the better driver of the two and better at overtaking. Hes struggling at McLaren, mainly due to the car being designed around how Lando drives. One of Riccardos key strengths was his braking and thats partly with what hes struggling with at McLaren. He cant carry enough speed under braking into a corner.

Now its often been said the very elite drivers can adjust their driving style to the car and be competitive. Remains to be seen if Riccardo can do that. Next years Mclaren is still built around lando so Riccardo is going to have to adapt or eventually lose his seat.

Back to bottas, i dont think hes ever been good enough to be a proper contender for a WDC. There are better drivers than him on the grid. He could match or beat lewis over a single lap in qually, but didnt have the race pace to do it lap after lap. Which is why lewis and maz run off into the distance normally as they can.

Also he didnt seem like he was willing to go to the extremes that nico rosberg did to try to beat lewis to a WDC. That season nico luckily beat lewis to the WDC (lewis would have been champion not withstanding the engine failure at malaysia), it mentally took so much effort and discipline that he retired from the sport. All the "marginal gains" stuff he went through, sacrifices in his personal life (not sleeping in the same bed as his wife for that year), its just mental. All to beat lewis and even then it was down to a mechnical failure. Bottas despite version 1.0 or 3.0 never went anywhere near those lengths.

Will be interesting to see how far Russell has to go to beat lewis to a title and whether he will get beaten down by trying to beat lewis.
 
I think Russell is very very special and will surprise a few people next season.
 
dinostar77 said:
Danny Ric is the better driver of the two and better at overtaking. Hes struggling at McLaren, mainly due to the car being designed around how Lando drives. One of Riccardos key strengths was his braking and thats partly with what hes struggling with at McLaren. He cant carry enough speed under braking into a corner.

Now its often been said the very elite drivers can adjust their driving style to the car and be competitive. Remains to be seen if Riccardo can do that. Next years Mclaren is still built around lando so Riccardo is going to have to adapt or eventually lose his seat.

Back to bottas, i dont think hes ever been good enough to be a proper contender for a WDC. There are better drivers than him on the grid. He could match or beat lewis over a single lap in qually, but didnt have the race pace to do it lap after lap. Which is why lewis and maz run off into the distance normally as they can.

Also he didnt seem like he was willing to go to the extremes that nico rosberg did to try to beat lewis to a WDC. That season nico luckily beat lewis to the WDC (lewis would have been champion not withstanding the engine failure at malaysia), it mentally took so much effort and discipline that he retired from the sport. All the "marginal gains" stuff he went through, sacrifices in his personal life (not sleeping in the same bed as his wife for that year), its just mental. All to beat lewis and even then it was down to a mechnical failure. Bottas despite version 1.0 or 3.0 never went anywhere near those lengths.

Will be interesting to see how far Russell has to go to beat lewis to a title and whether he will get beaten down by trying to beat lewis.
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The only thing Maz is running off into is the gravel. :p

Yes I know you meant Max.
 
Gringo said:
I think Russell is very very special and will surprise a few people next season.
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So do I. But not only has he got to get used to the new 2022 car, as does Hamilton, he has to get used to a new team and the way they operate. And then he has to develop that relentless desire to improve and to win as does Hamilton.

All things being equal, next season we will have 3 potential GP winners. But probably only 1 WC.
 
Buster15 said:
So do I. But not only has he got to get used to the new 2022 car, as does Hamilton, he has to get used to a new team and the way they operate. And then he has to develop that relentless desire to improve and to win as does Hamilton.

All things being equal, next season we will have 3 potential GP winners. But probably only 1 WC.
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For russell to "suprise" anyone as one of the previous posters mentioned he would have to win the WDC next season. Winning GP'S, getting PP's would not be a suprise as that is the expectation at Mercedes.

As you said we have no idea what next years Mercedes will be like or even if its among the best of the grid.

Russell's driving style is like that of button, prost and jackie steward. Very clean and smooth. However that requires a balanced car. Theres no guarantee that next years Mercedes will be balanced to get the best out of Russells driving so he may have to do a perez/riccardo and learn to adjust his style.

For argument sake, if he was going to RB to partner Max, he would struggle like gasly, albon and perez have done. Unless he can adapt his style. Max likes the RB to be run in a certain way with a pointy front end and a snappy oversteering rear. Its why his other teammates have struggled so much.

People say well he drove a Mercedes brilliantly once before. However that was the greatest f1 car Mercedes have ever produced. In comparison this years car is all about trying to unlock the setup that will get the tires in the right window asap so Mercedes can try to challenge RB. Its been difficult for them and it shows in the races themselves as bottas is nowhere while lewis has adapted to the car.

What im saying is we should place too much expectations on russell in his first season. Totto and Mercedes wont either.
 
DavidDeSchmikes said:
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He tagged Red Bull in his own post too. So I wonder if he was able to take the seat without cutting ties to Red Bull after all.
I guess Alfa Romeo 2nd seat is the only one open then? (subject to confirmation from Haas & Aston Martin)

I wouldn't be too surprised if Giovinazzi continues, but if Ferrari still holds sway over that seat they could think about placing Schumacher at Alfa Romeo and Ilott at Haas.
There's also De Vries as a non-ferrari alternative (or Hulkenberg).
 
dinostar77 said:
That season nico luckily beat lewis to the WDC (lewis would have been champion not withstanding the engine failure at malaysia)
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I've never agreed with the downgrading of Rosberg's win with Hamilton having bad luck.

Every tight championship win since the beginning of Formula 1 has been won/lost on some sort of engine failure/accident/lucky break.
People forget how many bad starts Hamilton had in the early part of the season as well. If he was off the line better in one or two of those he would have won the title.

Every one of Hamilton's championships has been deserved and same with Rosberg's in '16
 
Wicked_Badger said:
Gonna be very interesting. I still think George has a bit to learn in terms of consistency to challenge someone like Hamilton over a season. I expect he’ll be there on one-lap pace, but he still has errors in his locker which should see Hamilton have the edge, initially.

I think people underestimate how far Hamilton & Verstappen are ahead of the pack. Their unrelenting race pace, ability to keep tyres alive & make minimal mistakes under huge pressure is incredible. Very good drivers (Bottas, Rosberg, Perez, Gasly) just can’t keep up with them. Hope that George is different, but it’ll be a big jump for him.

The new formula could change all of that next year though. The driving styles of Hamilton & Max might not be suited and become a bit of a leveller.
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That's a fair point, but Russell absolutely bossed that Mercedes run-out in Bahrain. I'm sure he'll swing a lot more than Hamilton, but if he's able to continue his performance in qualifying at Mercedes, he's going to frustrate Hamilton, and Hamilton makes more mistake when he's frustrated, as seen v Rosberg in 2016, and some of the races v Verstappen earlier this year. Like that crash at Silverstone is uncharacteristic for Hamilton, but he was desperate to make the pass in the first lap.

I think for Gasly & Perez as you mentioned the issue has been more that the Red Bull car suits Verstappen a lot, and is difficult to handle for other drivers, which is less of an issue with the Mercedes, but absolutely. You've seen it every time Ricciardo swaps teams too, that he takes a while to get going, now with McLaren, and first year with Renault. They're all excellent drivers, but a step back from Max & Lewis. I think Norris is the one closest to them at the moment. Russell definitely has the potential though.

And the new formula! Super-hyped for next season already!
 
dinostar77 said:
That season nico luckily beat lewis to the WDC (lewis would have been champion not withstanding the engine failure at malaysia),
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I agree about the DNF , but I never thought he was lucky.
21 race and Lewis won 10 Nico 9, Lewis had 2 DNFs Nico just 1, the rest of the races point were pretty evenly spread.
Somebody on Facebook today , said Nico went against team orders and won the WC, I dont agree, the way the season panned out, says to me the opposite, that there was no team orders and the were allowed to race.
 
17Larsson said:
I've never agreed with the downgrading of Rosberg's win with Hamilton having bad luck.

Every tight championship win since the beginning of Formula 1 has been won/lost on some sort of engine failure/accident/lucky break.
People forget how many bad starts Hamilton had in the early part of the season as well. If he was off the line better in one or two of those he would have won the title.

Every one of Hamilton's championships has been deserved and same with Rosberg's in '16
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It's definitely a matter of opinion, mine is that 16 was a robbery by Rosberg. It wasn't a 'tight' championship by itself, it only became so because Hamilton's car had so many technical issues in comparison to Rosberg. On top of that, those slow starts you mention also involve Hamilton being hit and taking damage.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
I agree about the DNF , but I never thought he was lucky.
21 race and Lewis won 10 Nico 9, Lewis had 2 DNFs Nico just 1, the rest of the races point were pretty evenly spread.
Somebody on Facebook today , said Nico went against team orders and won the WC, I dont agree, the way the season panned out, says to me the opposite, that there was no team orders and the were allowed to race.
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It's more than just one more DNF. Hamilton had loads of issues that didn't stop him from finishing, but cost him loads of points; being hit multiple times, multiple engine failures, software issues, and penalties due to the aforementioned issues. Despite that, he ended up with the most pole positions, and most wins.

Frankly 2016 was a perfect storm for Rosberg, with Hamilton having horrendous luck and suffering from far worse reliability despite being in the same car.
 
The Hilton said:
It's more than just one more DNF. Hamilton had loads of issues that didn't stop him from finishing, but cost him loads of points; being hit multiple times, multiple engine failures, software issues, and penalties due to the aforementioned issues. Despite that, he ended up with the most pole positions, and most wins.

Frankly 2016 was a perfect storm for Rosberg, with Hamilton having horrendous luck and suffering from far worse reliability despite being in the same car.
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both drivers had problems . both had penalties, that one extra DNF was all that really split them.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
both drivers had problems . both had penalties, that one extra DNF was all that really split them.
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That's just disingenuous, it's far more than that one extra DNF (even though that DNF would have seen Hamilton win the title comfortably). Hamilton lost points due to being hit in Bahrain, the collision in Spain, and lost points due to technical issues in China, Russia, Belgium, and Singapore, on top of Malaysia. It was very one sided.

In the races they were actually able to compete, without issues, Hamilton came out on top 11 times to Rosberg's 6. That combined with more wins, more poles, faster qualifying pace overall. Given a level playing field, Hamilton would have won the title easily.
 
The Hilton said:
That's just disingenuous, it's far more than that one extra DNF (even though that DNF would have seen Hamilton win the title comfortably). Hamilton lost points due to being hit in Bahrain, the collision in Spain, and lost points due to technical issues in China, Russia, Belgium, and Singapore, on top of Malaysia. It was very one sided.

In the races they were actually able to compete, without issues, Hamilton came out on top 11 times to Rosberg's 6. That combined with more wins, more poles, faster qualifying pace overall. Given a level playing field, Hamilton would have won the title easily.
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That was my point, I dont disagree with anything else.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
That was my point, I dont disagree with anything else.
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That's confusing, as "that one extra DNF was all that really split them" is diametrically opposed to everything in my post, which is that any one of the numerous problems Hamilton had (that Rosberg didn't) would have changed the title winner.

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant? Anyway, I'm happy to leave it there as it's history now.
 
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