The Sun don't give a shite. They just think Brexit will win.
EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.
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No real surprise that The Sun went for Brexit .The paper as become more and more irrelevant over the years in it's influence on voters. But still likes to feel it as a say.
I'm starting to think the remain camp would have done better just to keep quiet throughout this whole thing and let Leave convince people on their own merits (and fail).
They've fecked it up and every point with their us against them strategy. The political voice doesn't have an effect in this debate there's no point wheeling out Major/Brown or just adding numbers.
They've fecked it up and every point with their us against them strategy. The political voice doesn't have an effect in this debate there's no point wheeling out Major/Brown or just adding numbers.
It woz da sun wot wun it
basically thats all they want to be able to say
Interesting graphic published by the Financial Times on how people are likely to vote by demographic groups. It's kind of strange in a way that those perhaps least likely to benefit from a Government that moves further to the right appear most likely to go for Brexit.
I'm taking solace in the fact that half the bigoted chav gobshites on my Facebook spreading propaganda won't have been arsed to register to vote.
Seems mainly right wingers, old folk and the poor in the out group.Interesting graphic published by the Financial Times on how people are likely to vote by demographic groups. It's kind of strange in a way that those perhaps least likely to benefit from a Government that moves further to the right appear most likely to go for Brexit.
Aye. I don't know why I'm friends with some people.
Last week there was a 20 year old having his hair cut at the same time as my brother. In conversation he said he was voting brexit and my brother asked him what reason was behind his decision. He said " well it will feck shit up ".
Might not have been such a good idea to lay on the doom and gloom either.
You're assuming they understand that, given some of the demographics who vote Tory they don't or they're hatred outweighs it.
I think that graphic conforms to expectations and I'm pretty certain we'll end up leaving now. Get the old and the typical sun reader onside and you've won any vote. It'll take a large turnout to buck that trend.
You've missed out a section
This graphic from the FT is doing the rounds too.
Yep. I'll be voting leave but up until very recently I thought remain would win. Now I don't know, the project fear campaign has backfired massively.
Its indicative of the populist Brexit case which ignores the wider context of its economic arguments. Yes we pay £8bn a year net into the EU, so we would get that money back. But tax receipts would only have to fall 1.6% to outweigh that gain. That is a pretty low minimum drop in GDP to hit to wipe out any financial gain from ceasing our EU membership. Meanwhile the Leave campaign have made numerous funding pledges/suggestions of what they will do with money the won't have.
Both campaigns have been guilty of scaremongering just as much as each other... I find it all a bit odd when one camp accuses the other of it as if they have been running virtuous campaign themselves. You have one side scaremongering on the economical backlash of a leave vote, and the other playing on people's fears of immigration. There is no moral high-ground to be had here by either side.
The pro-Brexit message from the Sun came from Murdoch himself and not The Sun's Editor. There is also that Murdoch quote going around about how people in Downing Street are easy to influence while people in Brussels do not listen to him. If that is true then the argument for Remain is right there and then.
This graphic from the FT is doing the rounds too.
I've had a quick look at the groundwork and the misinformation correlates with educational levels, which correlate with voting intention, as you might expect.
i.e. You are more likely to think a higher percentage of child benefit is spent on EU children if you have no formal qualifications and you are correspondingly more likely to vote Leave. For example 31% of those with no formal qualifications thought the EU spent more than 50% of its budget on administration and staff vs 11% graduates (shows how university standards have fallen
)No they wouldn't , only if all trade ceased between the two , Brexit think they could still carrying on trading and not pay anything, fantasy world
Yeah that's also a fair point. Another way the Leave argument divorces the figures from context.
This graphic from the FT is doing the rounds too.
I posted the Ipsos MORI research yesterday.
It's scary reading:
Alan Johnson has said it would only take a fall of 0.6% in GDP for that £8bn to be wiped out.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...referendum-live-polls-sun-brexit-remain-panic
I'm not talking about moral high ground I'm talking about political strategy.
Playing the immigration card makes sense for the leave campaign because it's so tangible. People can relate it to their lives easily; housing shortages and rising prices, overburdened NHS, busy roads, more competition for the good local schools, communities fractured because their new neighbours come from a different culture and aren't fluent in English etc. Things that get people angry everyday can be related, rightly or wrongly, to immigration. The economic argument is strong but nowhere near as visceral.
The man standing in front of a mob talking about risks that might happen at some point in the future won't get listened to when there is another man talking about he can make everyone's lives better right now.
It is such a tiny amount in comparison with the bigger picture anyway, the exchange rate losses alone over the past months have also already wiped it out. There is no gain financially whatsoever, only losses - and more losses to come, it's impossible to argue a financial benefit from Brexit
Did wonder if someone had posted it but couldn't face trawling back through umpteen pages. It's an interesting piece of research- would like to think I am more clued up than your average Joe, but I had no idea Poland receives the most, for example.
That's fascinating. What do the likes of @Nick 0208 Ldn (or other Brexiters) make of that graph?Interesting graphic published by the Financial Times on how people are likely to vote by demographic groups. It's kind of strange in a way that those perhaps least likely to benefit from a Government that moves further to the right appear most likely to go for Brexit.
But on one hand... the remain campaign's 'scaremongering' is at least backed up by a fair number of independent experts and professional bodies. There at least lies some credibility.
On the 'leave' side you have some quite frankly irresponsible claims about how they will be able to spend more on the NHS if they leave the EU? A claim backed by absolutely nobody because it's simply untrue.
Then you have their overriding claim that the Government will be able to control the levels of migration should we leave the EU. This is also nonsense because there are two huge factors that will decide the levels of migration in this country and it's not a fanciful Government quota. Migration levels will be determined by the strength of our economy and the skills needs of business in this country, whether that's skilled or low-skilled.
If migration levels start to dramatically reduce then you can be assured that this is because our economy is suffering. If our economy goes from strength to strength under a Brexit as many of their campaigners would like you to believe it will... then you find will the number of migrants will in fact go up. This is because there is a very clear link between the levels of migration and the relative strength of our economy.
People cannot relate to one extra person for every 50-80 or so. They think they can, because they know one or two families who come here and get benefits. But really, they can't relate to it at all. It's just as much scaremongering as anything the remain side have done.
They can relate to the cumulative effect though. If they view immigration as negative and it seems rightly or wrongly that most people do.
Do you think that we are actually going to leave Europe based on a lot of scaremongering about immigration? They'll soon be inviting people from abroad in when they find out that British people are too fecking lazy to do any of the 'dirty' jobs and to fecking thick to do any of the technical jobs.
I saw the bit about Michael Gove's family losing their fishing business due to EU regulation, which is very sad of course. But to want the whole of the country to be out of Europe based on personal experience is a fecking disgrace, it should be about what's best for 60 million people, not some personal vendetta.
If this country votes to leave, it will deserve everything that happens subsequently.
I saw the bit about Michael Gove's family losing their fishing business due to EU regulation, which is very sad of course. But to want the whole of the country to be out of Europe based on personal experience is a fecking disgrace, it should be about what's best for 60 million people, not some personal vendetta.
If this country votes to leave, it will deserve everything that happens subsequently.
Why is that strange? In general the EU causes right wing effects.Interesting graphic published by the Financial Times on how people are likely to vote by demographic groups. It's kind of strange in a way that those perhaps least likely to benefit from a Government that moves further to the right appear most likely to go for Brexit.
Do you mean the cumulative effect that has been shown to be beneficial to our economy?
Yes I do, but it seems clear that other people count the cost in social cohesion as more important.
I don't agree with them.
His schools policy was based on his personal experience so he has form
I'm more referring to the elderly, poor, less educated etc. who tend to be the sort of groups where a Government move further to the right would likely have a greater negative impact... financially and economically speaking.
So, that section of the British political landscape who have been more reliable in their criticism of the European Union, the wise folk who remember what they voted for in 1975, and those Britons increasingly being neglected by national and continental government.
The 8bn figure is not a static amount, you know. There shall be two six-yearly budgetary reviews over the next ten years, and the EU always ask for more taxpayers' money. Additionally, there is a to be a EU review of VAT rules, and that could also increase the burden of the citizen. Your post also rather assumes that we agree with how the rest of our billions are spent.
Brussels would impose austerity whilst simultaneously being on the grab for more and more cash. If we vote for Brexit it will be because the politicians failed in their duty. They can react wisely and show some rare humility, or lash out in the childish and spiteful manner which a few of their loyalists on here seem to advocate.
Would i be right in assuming that you subscribe to the theory of a significant and permanent drop in GDP?
Seeing as i am a young (ish
), socially liberal, Guardian reading Londoner, i'd advise against some of the conclusions that people might jump to.I don't consider it to be an unreasonable position for a Scottish voter to feel the way they do, as their experience and impression is gong to be somewhat different from that of south-eastern England for example. Equally, voters from the C2 social group could justifiably feel that unmanaged immigration from the EU has been to their detriment.
Did you not read the Cass report i posted yesterday? How could credibility be a word you would associated with such wilful misuse of the data?
Would you mind elaborating as to why this is so?
That only remains true if the Government sits idle in other policy areas.
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Desperate people.If they really believe that a magic wand will be waved bringing shops and jobs back if they leave. This is down to both Tory and Labour parties neglecting areas like this over many years and not the foreigners .
Hmmm... no it's ok! I think I'll leave it for now. I mean, I would but I've read some of your previous posts and it would be an awful shame to miss my Colonoscopy.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...enefits-to-unemployed-eu-migrants-judges-rule
It will be interesting to see how Remain uses this. It rebuts a portion of the Leave argument around migrants claiming benefits.
It will be interesting to see how Remain uses this. It rebuts a portion of the Leave argument around migrants claiming benefits.
I think that sums up the debate really. A failure by both parties to address the concerns of large segments of the population has caused such desperation.
The right has fed off the hatred for immigration while the left has ignored all concerns.
There is room for sensible discussion on immigration and it needs to be had. Some of that around policy and some around explaining what's currently in place to tackle ignorance and myths.
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