Cameron would never take/win a debate emphatically, he is utterly useless when it comes to answering serious questions or debating another politician. The audience tonight went easy on him compared to the questions Farage had and Cameron still didn't manage to capitalize. It would of been a lot better if they let Cameron and Farage debate one on one but Cameron would never do that as he knows he would lose. It's actually ridiculous that he gets away without debating anyone, he did it at the general election and he is doing again for the referendum.
EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.
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Cameron would never take/win a debate emphatically, he is utterly useless when it comes to answering serious questions or debating another politician. The audience tonight went easy on him compared to the questions Farage had and Cameron still didn't manage to capitalize. It would of been a lot better if they let Cameron and Farage debate one on one but Cameron would never do that as he knows he would lose. It's actually ridiculous that he gets away without debating anyone, he did it at the general election and he is doing again for the referendum.
Jesus wept, that woman has no idea what she's talking about
What the guy said is so damned obvious, god help the UK
Are you going to right now deny that 45% of our exports go to the EU? Because if not then news for you pal, we lose it. Hence what I said is 100% correct and not the biggest pile of horseshit, fact.
Now of course we can set up new trade agreements with the EU, I didn't at any point say we couldn't and this does not in any way make what I said wrong, you're just jumping your gun there. But this takes time and includes the possibility of concessions to the EU like we've seen with Switzerland who your side are so fond of quoting since we will be more desperate to replace a huge export loss than the individual member states who would need to agree to such a deal will be to replace smaller individual import losses, such as free movement of EU nationals that they were forced to accept, meaning that immigration is back where it was and you've accomplished the grand total of nothing there.
That's a possibility and to deny it is at best naive and at worst intentionally misleading.
With regards to the expats, no that's not what I suggested at all. I'm not really sure where you pulled that out from.
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Yeah it was very Trump like, ignore the questions and repeat the tag line.
So what you're saying is that we we will have to negotiate a new trade deal. You do know if we vote to leave we have a period of time to negotiate all this, we don't just stop trading.
One of the points of the out vote is border control, to say that applying the same controls to EU as non EU will not reduce net migration is naive to say the least.
Nonsense, do you know anything about the criteria you need to fulfil to live and work as a non EU citizen? You either need to marry a UK citizen, have a business investment >£1m, or have an employers work sponsored visa, which aren't easy to come by.
So yes I'm pretending that won't reduce immigration from the EU
Official immigration statistics were released less than two weeks ago, do you want to go and check that first or do you want to continue peddling a line of argument thats demonstrably wrong?
Despite it 'being harder' EU vs RoW immigration was almost exactly 50/50 with a few thousand more, but not a number thats significantly significant, coming from outside the EU.
Yes, and Switzerland thought exactly the same when they left. A better run and more competitive economy than ours at that and look what happened there. I think you're just showing that you don't really understand the concept of concessions during trade agreement negotiations if you think the agreement is going to favour us more than it favours the EU who hold the power in said negotiation.
Whatever controls we impose on EU migrants will be imposed on Brits looking to go the other way, this would be a terrible thing
I can't believe people are falling for this nonsense from Leave, the naïvety is astounding - ignorance is bliss or most probably the biggest nightmare you can possibly imagine
The non EU we have control over, the EU we don't, what's so difficult to understand about that? We may be doing a shite job at controlling the non EU, it's within our gift to change that though. What's with the 'being harder' it is, do you deny that?
Well even in the few seconds of it I watched he did misrepresent the position post Brexit. The post Brexit UK position would not be to have zero tariffs if other countries put them on. Its to work for mutual zero tariffs agreements. If he misrepresents something that obvious in his first couple of sentences then I assume he has an agenda.
He wants the UK to continue paying 8 billion pounds a year to have access to a market it loses 68 billion trading in because the UK's world leading sector is financial services and the EU doesn't have free trade in those services. I don't blame him but its a bit see through.
Where did I say it would favour us more than the EU? I simply stated we would need to negotiate a trade deal.
So you admit nothing is going to change with non-EU but at present you can't do anything about the EU immigrants, only an aversion to Europeans then - if the Uk leave the same people who were previously within the circle will then be outside the circle but you'll still let them in as you can't change - makes zero sense
You didn't watch enough, that's what she said about zero tariffs, not him
Then I'm not really sure what you disagreed with when you barreled in here saying everything was the biggest steaming pile of horse shit you'd ever read, since the very next fecking sentence in the post you quoted clearly accepted this before going on to explain the reasons why it still doesn't magically fix anything.
I'm voting remain but I'm not convinced of the line of thinking that we would absolutely have to accept complete freedom of movement. The EU leaders are facing increased pressure to concede on this matter and public opinion across europe is growing against it.
That's not so mention that there are alternatives to entering the single market.
That's not so mention that there are alternatives to entering the single market.
Do you mean my use of quote marks to quote you?
Right, so we agree, we already have the ability to halve immigration today if we so wanted. So why leave the EU losing access to a stream of young workers who even Nigel Farage admits help the economy to solve an issue that can be solved without leaving?
Admittedly it would make it harder for people like your wife to get a visa, maybe even impossible in some cases, but apparently Im out of touch with the rest of the UK because apparently people seem to want that.
After seeing what the EU did to Greece I was at least open to the idea of maybe voting out but the Leave campaigns rhetoric(not to mention the absolute arses involved in it) has made it not just impossible to vote for but stupid to vote for
Paul the wolf you don't have a dog in this fight so why don't you chirp down. It's getting boring.
What are you, the Brexit police, unbelievable
We wouldn't necessarily lose access to them that's a reach, it would make it more difficult for smaller business to hire but a lot of large employers already have to fill the gap in skills shortage with non-European workers. It'd be the bottom end where businesses wouldn't be able to function due to the loss of cheap labour.
Our hospitals aren't going to become empty overnight for instance, we'd still need to bring in foreign nurses.
We'd just have greater control over who arrived and I think people's issue here is the principle of no control rather than how the numbers currently stack
OK watched I it all, you are on my shit list for making me do that, and she doesn't say any such thing. In fact she flat out refutes it and questions the source for his claim. If the UK post Brexit is stupid enough to take the stance Pascal wants us to take IE that we give free access to the UK market even if the EU puts tariffs on UK exports then yes we would be stuffed but then if trade agreements are as he says they are then the basic figures rule and those figures are to repeat.
8 billion pounds per year in charges to have access to a market we trade at a deficit with to the tune of 68 billion pounds. Those are the outcomes not the hopes or dreams or potentials or the wild Dragon's Den like claims of scalability.
If we tank our economy in the way some are predicting then you dont even need to enact controls. Britain will simply be undesirable to foreign workers.
Maybe thats a price some are willing to pay to get rid of the foreign folk. But I don't think people really realise what they actually want. You are right we need them to be doctors and nurses and we all know people in this country who might not be allowed to live here if laws were tougher. It might be easy to dehumise immigrants as a faceless horde who need to be kept out, but thats not who immigrants are. Immigrants are people's wives, people's husbands, people's friends and people's neighbours. They're people that we care for and in some cases, like yours (although i dont presume to know the state of your marriage), they're people that we love.
Thats who immigrants are. I find it hard to believe that people are so ideologically wedded to the peice of rock they happened to be born on that they would share it with other people also born on that same rock to the exclusion of all others.
The EU leaders do not care what the people want that is the problem. No matter how much pressure they face they will continue on with their EU agenda, Eventually turning Europe into a superstate. Immigration will not be stopped or slowed down while the EU exists or while we are a member of it.
But she's trying to deny it but expecting to have a free trade agreements with these mythical countries, why would anyone want to do that , the Uk would be in such a weak position , how can they bargain anything, all I keep hearing is Switzerland, Iceland, Singapore, that's what she 's trying to compare the Uk to . The trade defecit maybe 68bn but it will undoubtedly get much bigger. How much does the Uk think it will pay to trade with the EU, nothing
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FFS, I had no idea this was on. Feel like there's been no publicity - am I just out the loop?
That's just a Worcester-based estate agent seeing an opportunity to get in on the action and hopefully get quoted by a national.Is that from the official campaign? Great consistency.
(I think I've said before that the house prices argument is fairly revealing of who this referendum is for/about)
Neither of them did well enough to make ripples outside of their existing support base appears to be the consensus
The irony of the leave argument is that the leave campaign wants to reduce immigration and negotiate trade deals with the EU amongst others (in order not to feck up the economy). But in order to negotiate these trade deals the UK will have make deals on, errrr... immigration. This is not speculation, but the reality. Not that immigration is a bad thing, as already mentioned many time immigrants put far more in the system than they take out.
I just wish that the remain argument was based upon a more positive approach. Of course the UK will survive a Brexit and life will go on. Despite what's all said, there are many positive things done by the EU from an economic and social perspective. IMO both the EU and the UK & its citizens, particularly the average man in the street, are better of if the UK stays in the EU despite of the flaws the EU might have.
I just wish that the remain argument was based upon a more positive approach. Of course the UK will survive a Brexit and life will go on. Despite what's all said, there are many positive things done by the EU from an economic and social perspective. IMO both the EU and the UK & its citizens, particularly the average man in the street, are better of if the UK stays in the EU despite of the flaws the EU might have.
If it comes to the point where tariffs are being raised then the UK govt would bring in more money from those tariffs on EU to UK exports than the EU would bring in on UK to EU exports because its a function of net trade values. If the UK govt uses that money to level the playing field by compensating UK's exporters for any disadvantage in the new arrangement then it probably won't make a hell of a lot of difference to UK exports.
I laugh and laugh at the idea and talk of all trade ending with the EU, how does Airbus service the Trent engines it has on its planes while buying no UK manufactured parts? If the EU makes it more expensive to buy those parts then the world buys Boeing's jets instead.
This is why the posturing will end when the feck the UK brigade start to realise that their position hasn't begun to understand how self defeating such a move would be to the mostly bankrupt EU.
Have you thought about the negotiations to enter the common market in the first place and the number of concessions made by the UK at that time which we would be able to roll back post Brexit. Take a look at the EEZ for the EU with the UK out versus with it in.
The UK wouldn't want to go down this path and while there will be a fig leaf or two for the EU free market members I truly don't see it being anything but marginal.
Jesus Bloody Christ...from an article about my hometown:
Guardian said:
I remember reading about the psychology behind 'social demons' as part of my undergrad. Feels like that all over again, albeit I can't remember the details as it was nearly 20 years ago.
Probably immigrants stealing my memories.
I had to write about the sociology of 'folk devils'. Constantly quoting the now rather unfortunately named sociologist 'Stuart Hall'.
You forgoy another option, Rolls Royce move their factory into the EU
Mostly bankrupt EU??? Where do you get this shite from?
No-one is saying the trade with the EU will stop, it will just be under different conditions, the tariffs work both ways.
If for some reason someone expects the trade to continue the same, only this time, the UK won't have to pay the "fees" or won't have to accept immigration they are in for a rude awakening.
If the Uk sells to the EU they still have to comply by EU standards for their goods to be accepted. The EU aren't going to say, OK just carry on as before but you longer have to pay a price, It's no good saying but the Uk are the 5th biggest economy in the world. they may have been but that will no longer be the case. A population of 60 odd million trying to dictate terms to a trade zone with 500 million people , who is the weaker, and I beg you not to quote Switzerland, many other posters have explained the difference.
Half our net immigration is from non-EU countries. So leaving the EU does nothing about that. Then any reduction in EU immigration will be at least partly offset by a reduction in emigration. So I really don't see any big reduction in net migration. Actually, thinking about it this morning, there will probably be a big drop just after the vote if Brexit wins, as thousands of people relocate to other countries while they can do it easily.
And I'm suggesting that we'll become a less attractive trading partner once we're not in the EU. We're a big exporter now on the basis that we're easy to trade with, but many of the things we export can be made elsewhere.
What would happen if the UK voted to remain but just refused to let immigrants in.. would it face huge fines, expulsion etc.. what are the legal ramifications for disobedience in relation to free movement of peoples?
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