EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?

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Sweet Square said:
:lol: Yeah I remember that.

Maybe it's because I live down south but there's hardly been any talk about the idea of leave winning and causing another Scottish referendum.
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It probably is. I live up here at the minute for Uni and people are pissed off about it, not just about the fact that Britain might leave, but its seen as another example of Westminster lying to the Scots for their own end.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2016-scotland-36124382

If Scotland votes to Leave as well it might be a non-issue, but its looking very likely that they might be dragged out by England no matter what they want.
 
Stanley Road said:
Well. when people look at the EU they see turmoil and discord
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When people look at the USA what do they see - the possibility of a racist nutter becoming their president or a superpower dictating the rest of the world
When people look at Russia what do they see - Murderous president who's now probably the richest man in the world, mafia etc
When people look at China, what do they see - Majority of the population living in sheer poverty while their economy tries to rule the world
When people look at Africa, all the corruption of the heads of governments while the peoples earning a dollar a day to survive
When people look at the Middle East - the oil and sheikhs or the strife and war that exists almost in permanence.

Could go on and on - which part of this glorious world does the UK want to be part of - or do they want to be insular and have their cream teas in the village with all the thatched cottages listening the sound of leather against willow while the brave tommies go off to defend this sacred land, serene in the knowledge that there's no chance of any dark-faced foreigner about to encroach on their paradise.
 
Stanley Road said:
OK who decided deficit should be max 3 pc of gdp or face a billion dollar fine?
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That's hardy the EU controlling the economy though, its just there as a deterrent, because its been decided that's the point at which it might start effecting the greater union.
 
NinjaFletch said:
It probably is. I live up here at the minute for Uni and people are pissed off about it, not just about the fact that Britain might leave, but its seen as another example of Westminster lying to the Scots for their own end.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2016-scotland-36124382

If Scotland votes to Leave as well it might be a non-issue, but its looking very likely that they might be dragged out by England no matter what they want.
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Cheers.

Can see why there would be lot of anger, it seems entirely south based and even more so London centric. Also has Nigel and his magic school bus of xenophobia been anywhere past the M25.

Although and this isn't really based on anything but I've always had the feeling that Sturgeon and the SNP aren't that gun hoe to have another referendum.

Going to be interesting for sure if leave wins.
 
Sweet Square said:
Cheers.

Can see why there would be lot of anger, it seems entirely south based and even more so London centric. Also has Nigel and his magic school bus of xenophobia been anywhere past the M25.

Although and this isn't really based on anything but I've always had the feeling that Sturgeon and the SNP aren't that gun hoe to have another referendum.
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They are, its their raison d'être, but they're smart. They know that the economic vision they presented at the last referendum is now nonsense. The oil price is in the shitter and, honestly, Scotland was lucky it didn't get independence when it did. They're biding their time, licking their wounds and will put pressure on again when they think they can win it. Voting to leave the EU might not be the end of the union as such, but it will piss Scots off, and if the UK's economy tanks in anywhere near the same way as is predicted? Well then suddenly they have an economic argument again...
 
NinjaFletch said:
They are, its their raison d'être, but they're smart. They know that the economic vision they presented at the last referendum is now nonsense. The oil price is in the shitter and, honestly, Scotland was lucky it didn't get independence when it did. They're biding their time, licking their wounds and will put pressure on again when they think they can win it. Voting to leave the EU might not be the end of the union as such, but it will piss Scots off, and if the UK's economy tanks in anywhere near the same way as is predicted? Well then suddenly they have an economic argument again...
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I guess that's good to know. As an outsider I view Scottish independence as a bit of a mixed bag - on one had it's seems very odd to vote against independence especially considering the history between the two countries but as you said had independence happened they(The Scots)would have been in the shitter.

As for the economic argument I'm surprised(last time I checked)that Leave have a lead of a few points considering the predicted way of the economy(Not to mention Leaves awful answering on the economy post win), it's hardly the actions of so called ''conservative'' country. Although I do think immigration and nostalgia for the ''good old days''/Empire are sadly going to the main focus for a lot of voters.
 
Sweet Square said:
If the leave wins then isn't there a big chance that Scotland will have another referendum ?[/QUOTE
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NinjaFletch said:
They are, its their raison d'être, but they're smart. They know that the economic vision they presented at the last referendum is now nonsense. The oil price is in the shitter and, honestly, Scotland was lucky it didn't get independence when it did. They're biding their time, licking their wounds and will put pressure on again when they think they can win it. Voting to leave the EU might not be the end of the union as such, but it will piss Scots off, and if the UK's economy tanks in anywhere near the same way as is predicted? Well then suddenly they have an economic argument again...
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I wonder if Sturgeon is urging a leave vote just so they can force another Scottish referundum... We're all absolutely fecked if vote leave wins and it's now looking like that's going to happen...
 
Is anyone above the age of 60 not voting leave? Literately everyone I speak to that isn't going to live long enough to see much benefit from leaving is voting leave, or at least leaning that way.
 
The brexit train gets stronger by the day. John Major's interview warning against Brexit seems to have backfired so far. Brexit moving ahead in the polls.
 
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Prodigal7 said:
I wonder if Sturgeon is urging a leave vote just so they can force another Scottish referundum... We're all absolutely fecked if vote leave wins and it's now looking like that's going to happen...
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I'm not sure. The thing is, as much as the SNP tried to argue otherwise, Better Together were right, there was, and is, no guarantee that an independent Scotland would get EU membership. Its a difficult topic for them. I guess you're right in some respects, if the argument goes that countries such as Spain will veto the membership bid of an independent country out of their own fears for an independent Catalonia, then it makes sense that if Scotland succeeded from a non-EU member state they may have less objection.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
When people look at the USA what do they see - the possibility of a racist nutter becoming their president or a superpower dictating the rest of the world
When people look at Russia what do they see - Murderous president who's now probably the richest man in the world, mafia etc
When people look at China, what do they see - Majority of the population living in sheer poverty while their economy tries to rule the world
When people look at Africa, all the corruption of the heads of governments while the peoples earning a dollar a day to survive
When people look at the Middle East - the oil and sheikhs or the strife and war that exists almost in permanence.

Could go on and on - which part of this glorious world does the UK want to be part of - or do they want to be insular and have their cream teas in the village with all the thatched cottages listening the sound of leather against willow while the brave tommies go off to defend this sacred land, serene in the knowledge that there's no chance of any dark-faced foreigner about to encroach on their paradise.
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So you describe the eu and give it various names, clever
 
NinjaFletch said:
It probably is. I live up here at the minute for Uni and people are pissed off about it, not just about the fact that Britain might leave, but its seen as another example of Westminster lying to the Scots for their own end.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2016-scotland-36124382

If Scotland votes to Leave as well it might be a non-issue, but its looking very likely that they might be dragged out by England no matter what they want.
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Well tbf a very large portion of England including the ones Scotland made the deal with will be dragged out against their will too.
 
Simbo said:
Is anyone above the age of 60 not voting leave? Literately everyone I speak to that isn't going to live long enough to see much benefit from leaving is voting leave, or at least leaning that way.
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I am not voting at all, but I am 60 and would vote Remain as my brain hopefully is slightly larger than a peanut
 
NinjaFletch said:
It probably is. I live up here at the minute for Uni and people are pissed off about it, not just about the fact that Britain might leave, but its seen as another example of Westminster lying to the Scots for their own end.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2016-scotland-36124382

If Scotland votes to Leave as well it might be a non-issue, but its looking very likely that they might be dragged out by England no matter what they want.
Click to expand...
Also if England votes out... But the Scottish votes make the overall result remain I can see a big push from UKIP / some conservatives to boot Scotland out and leave
... It won't happen but it would be fractious and potentially get quite nasty (politically) I think
 
Niche desperate Brexit angle.

For immediate release
07/06/2016

Press Release

As EU vote looms, Brexit fears fail to devalue Worcester housing market

With the EU referendum just around the corner a firm of Worcester estate agents have revealed fears surrounding the result of the vote have failed to impact on local housing prices. However, the claim and counterclaims of both sides has, according to Estates Direct Managing Director Ben Grove, led to a degree of nervousness amongst sellers. He said: "We have seen a flurry of people putting their houses on the market because of the fears vendors have that a vote to leave would lead to lower property prices."

Fears that house prices will crash in the event of a vote to leave were fuelled by Chancellor George Osborne's recent warning houses could be worth 18% less than if the UK remained in the EU. Those claims were refuted by Vote Leave campaigners and Ben Grove said: "Whilst there is some nervousness in the market the general trend in Worcestershire is one of rising prices and the available housing stock is selling quickly.

"We have also seen record levels of prospective buyers registering with us and demand for properties has never been so high. There is a lot of action in the market right now which is giving local buyers confidence it is a good time to move."

The market has continued to strengthen after a bumper year for sellers in our local area. Online property portal Rightmove reports price hikes of 7% in Worcester, Redditch, and Kidderminster whilst Bromsgrove enjoyed a boom of 9% compared to the national average of 5%.

But will that trend continue post referendum? Ben Grove said: "It is hard to say and despite the scaremongering no one really knows. But a vote to remain in the EU, with an unlimited amount of people able to live, work, and rent here, could see house prices continue to rise. Increased rents mean better profits for landlords so they start to buy houses to rent out. This would mean more competition with prices driven up by demand.

"A Brexit vote however, with less people coming to the UK, could see lower demand with prices falling or stagnating. Not great news for sellers but it may help more first-time buyers get a foot on the property ladder."

ENDS
 
Simbo said:
Is anyone above the age of 60 not voting leave? Literately everyone I speak to that isn't going to live long enough to see much benefit from leaving is voting leave, or at least leaning that way.
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My parents and most of their friends are voting remain. Most Labour supporters are, no matter what age.
 
Simbo said:
Is anyone above the age of 60 not voting leave? Literately everyone I speak to that isn't going to live long enough to see much benefit from leaving is voting leave, or at least leaning that way.
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My experience is the opposite. Younger adults want to leave, older adults want to remain.
 
sun_tzu said:
Also if England votes out... But the Scottish votes make the overall result remain I can see a big push from UKIP / some conservatives to boot Scotland out and leave
... It won't happen but it would be fractious and potentially get quite nasty (politically) I think
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Its definitely a possibility. My impression has always been that most UKIPers are unionists though, Farage campaigned hard, and utterly bizarrely (calling on the Queen to cancel the referendum) for No in the indyref.
 
This awkward position Cameron has taken of criticising the argument but refusing to criticise the Leave MPs is absurd.

You can't say they're telling lies to the general public without then questioning their fitness for office.
 
Smores said:
This awkward position Cameron has taken of criticising the argument but refusing to criticise the Leave MPs is absurd.

You can't say they're telling lies to the general public without then questioning their fitness for office.
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This is kind of why I wish Corbyn had more charisma than a wet paper bag. The moment Cameron starts talking about stuff like workers' rights he will look like a complete numpty. There is more to life than GDP and work but neither side has made a solid argument for anything else. Corbyn has made arguments about other things, but who listens?

I suspect the problem is also that Corbyn is a reluctant Remainer. He doesn't like the EU entirely, but sees a Conservative-led EU negotiation and Conservative government as a bigger evil (actually, I think several of us are - I am).

Who could Remain wheel out instead? With the Scottish Referendum, Cameron wasn't heading the No campaign, but No had to wheel out Gordon Brown, respected in Scotland, in the end anyway. There is no "Gordon Brown" now. And any Labour figure rolled out (say, David Miliband) could undermine Corbyn.
 
On Corbyn I think, as much as I hate her, Kuenssberg summed it up:



It's Corbyn's typical struggle really, he's undeniably right about a lot of things, talks a great deal of sense, and its easy to see why he's well liked by me and plenty of other people. But, sadly, politics rarely comes down to 'being right' and 'talking sense' and his lack of ability, or willingness, to shout loudly about issues, even when he doesn't believe them himself, holds him back.

Sad, but I guess its always been the way.
 
x42bn6 said:
This is kind of why I wish Corbyn had more charisma than a wet paper bag. The moment Cameron starts talking about stuff like workers' rights he will look like a complete numpty. There is more to life than GDP and work but neither side has made a solid argument for anything else. Corbyn has made arguments about other things, but who listens?

I suspect the problem is also that Corbyn is a reluctant Remainer. He doesn't like the EU entirely, but sees a Conservative-led EU negotiation and Conservative government as a bigger evil (actually, I think several of us are - I am).

Who could Remain wheel out instead? With the Scottish Referendum, Cameron wasn't heading the No campaign, but No had to wheel out Gordon Brown, respected in Scotland, in the end anyway. There is no "Gordon Brown" now. And any Labour figure rolled out (say, David Miliband) could undermine Corbyn.
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Personally don't think Corbyn has a charisma issue but then I preferred Gordon Brown's style to that of slick PR man Dave as well.

Labour are more than happy to sit back and let the tories eat away at each other. I think that's largely the right call as they can't particularly add anything that the prime minister hasn't already said and it isn't their voter base that needs convincing.

This is Cameron's fight at the end of the day. He unleashed this debate, he fought for the 'special arrangements'. If he messes this up because he's unwilling to criticise or debate fellow party members then he's not fit for office either.
 
Simbo said:
Is anyone above the age of 60 not voting leave? Literately everyone I speak to that isn't going to live long enough to see much benefit from leaving is voting leave, or at least leaning that way.
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You need to read up on ageism my friend, it's one of those isms that could land you in big trouble in the workplace nowadays, defend yourself at all times.

As for the question, I'm just in the remain camp. They have won on every argument except immigration for me. Unfortunately Leave have no actual plans for that though, just a few coulds and mights, and as they are in complete denial of any trade implications at all then they can't say they are prepared to face and accept them, so if we did leave we would likely end up with a Norway agreement anyway, still free movement and still paying our subs.

I am starting to get fed up of the constant personal insults thrown out by some Remain supporters on the cafe though. It might just get tiresome enough to change one's mind.
 
Prodigal7 said:
Please do vote. My future would thank you very much if it could.
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As an expat it's too late to register even if I wanted to, sorry.

I don't think I've ever been so bewildered - why anyone could possibly consider that Brexit will be good for the UK, but there are millions that actually do and a lot of them have no idea why or what the future might hold. I think I'm starting to offend some people which I don't want to but there is more chance of finding a fairy at the bottom of your garden than Brexit being a benefit.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
As an expat it's too late to register even if I wanted to, sorry.

I don't think I've ever been so bewildered - why anyone could possibly consider that Brexit will be good for the UK, but there are millions that actually do and a lot of them have no idea why or what the future might hold. I think I'm starting to offend some people which I don't want to but there is more chance of finding a fairy at the bottom of your garden than Brexit being a benefit.
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It's pretty baffling to me too. It seems to be a "I'm proud to be English/British so I'm voting for Brexit" type of attitude.
I also don't think the IN campaign have talked enough about workers rights issues that the EU is very good with. Giving myself and lots of other employees in the UK legally binding paid holiday/paternity/maternity leave and other things. It's a bureaucratic nightmare but it still serves a purpose and has done some good socially as well as economically.
 
Prodigal7 said:
It's pretty baffling to me too. It seems to be a "I'm proud to be English/British so I'm voting for Brexit" type of attitude.
I also don't think the IN campaign have talked enough about workers rights issues that the EU is very good with. Giving myself and lots of other employees in the UK legally binding paid holiday/paternity/maternity leave and other things. It's a bureaucratic nightmare but it still serves a purpose and has done some good socially as well as economically.
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It seems the Remain campaign has been poorly led. I don't really understand either why the Brexiters want this so much, it's just an endless stream of lies and fantasy which the Remain campaign have not done enough to dispute. If the Uk leaves and it all turns into a nightmare the Brexiters will still blame the EU
 
Jippy said:
Niche desperate Brexit angle.

Press Release

With the EU referendum just around the corner a firm of Worcester estate agents have revealed fears surrounding the result of the vote have failed to impact on local housing prices. However, the claim and counterclaims of both sides has, according to Estates Direct Managing Director Ben Grove, led to a degree of nervousness amongst sellers. He said: "We have seen a flurry of people putting their houses on the market because of the fears vendors have that a vote to leave would lead to lower property prices."

Fears that house prices will crash in the event of a vote to leave were fuelled by Chancellor George Osborne's recent warning houses could be worth 18% less than if the UK remained in the EU. Those claims were refuted by Vote Leave campaigners and Ben Grove said: "Whilst there is some nervousness in the market the general trend in Worcestershire is one of rising prices and the available housing stock is selling quickly.

"We have also seen record levels of prospective buyers registering with us and demand for properties has never been so high. There is a lot of action in the market right now which is giving local buyers confidence it is a good time to move."

The market has continued to strengthen after a bumper year for sellers in our local area. Online property portal Rightmove reports price hikes of 7% in Worcester, Redditch, and Kidderminster whilst Bromsgrove enjoyed a boom of 9% compared to the national average of 5%.

But will that trend continue post referendum? Ben Grove said: "It is hard to say and despite the scaremongering no one really knows. But a vote to remain in the EU, with an unlimited amount of people able to live, work, and rent here, could see house prices continue to rise. Increased rents mean better profits for landlords so they start to buy houses to rent out. This would mean more competition with prices driven up by demand.

"A Brexit vote however, with less people coming to the UK, could see lower demand with prices falling or stagnating. Not great news for sellers but it may help more first-time buyers get a foot on the property ladder."
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:lol: Is that from the official campaign? Great consistency.

(I think I've said before that the house prices argument is fairly revealing of who this referendum is for/about)
 
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