EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

[Zarlak]

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/brexit-out-of-frying-pan-into-fire.html

I like this, despite the obvious bias to remain that he tries to say at the start that he is going to avoid.

I do completely agree with this.

'As the former British ambassador to the UN Peter Marshall puts it "Brexit is not a policy, nor a programme. It is not even a scenario. It is more perhaps a protest or a grievance. That explains the emptiness of its campaign. It runs on assertion, assumption and criticism of the Remainians, rather than on rigorous or consistent analysis".

The Brexit camp have no actual policy for what a post-EU British economy would look like, all they have is a sequence of highly optimistic assertions about what the UK "could" do outside the EU.'

Maybe if they were able to put forward actual plans based on research and evidence that's able to stand up to being debunked then it would be easier to take them more seriously. As it is, they want to play roulette.

 

[Zarlak]

i think i might be the only person in this country who doesn't give one single feck about immigration.

I don't either. I find it amusing that people put so much stock in the place their parents decided to have sex and that they had absolutely no choice in or ever did anything to obtain.

 

[Wibble]

Better off watching "The moment of Truth" video than reading this crap which implies everything about Brexit will be negative.

It will be. I don't really care as I no longer live there but exiting the EU will be the stupidest thing the UK has done since .... erm ....... an incredibly stupid thing they did a long time ago.

 

[Damien]

Interesting decision by Sky News to have the "Remain" argument by Cameron be on the same night as England playing while Gove's "Brexit" has no competition.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Corbyn putting TTIP back on the agenda today. He really doesn't want to be on Team CamBorne.

i think i might be the only person in this country who doesn't give one single feck about immigration.

I don't either. I find it amusing that people put so much stock in the place their parents decided to have sex and that they had absolutely no choice in or ever did anything to obtain.

That cuts both ways you realise: not only are you ambivalent about the plight of English communities, but also the experiences of persecuted migrants. The status quo neither serves the member states as it should, nor the hundreds of thousands of migrants seeking entry along the EU's border. And so detached have politicians become, that they can't even recognise their own culpability in the rise of fringe parties.

 

[Zarlak]

That cuts both ways you realise: not only are you ambivalent about the plight of English communities, but also the experiences of persecuted migrants.

That's a knee jerk opinion that has no internal logic. Though trust a leaver to make an assumption. whitetext

 

[Stanley Road]

So what is the EU actually doing to try and keep the UK in if they feel exit will be a disaster for Europe?

 

[sun_tzu]

So what is the EU actually doing to try and keep the UK in if they feel exit will be a disaster for Europe?

as well as our existing vetos and opt outs
up to 4 years for eu immigrants to get full access to in work benefits (subject to showing the strain migrants are placing on the system - the so called control brake)
A pledge that non eurozone countries will not have to contribute financially to any eurozone bailouts
A pledge to reduce EU red tape and the burden on businesses
An agreement that if a child lives in a different country (eg poland) than any child benefit paid will be at the local rate and not at UK rates

Plus EU leaders are being open and honest and saying that any renegotiations in the event of brexit will not be easy

What more can they do / should they do?

 

[Rams]

So what is the EU actually doing to try and keep the UK in if they feel exit will be a disaster for Europe?

It won't be a disaster, but it will harm Europe.
It is a policy of the EU (and in international relations in general) not to get involved with internal affairs of member states, such as referendums or elections.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

That's a knee jerk opinion that has no internal logic. Though trust a leaver to make an assumption. whitetext

So yo don't agree with either British or EU policy on migration?

The average trade deal takes forever to negotiate. Canada's deal with the EU took nearly a decade from inception to completion.

Yes, the UK can "fast-track" a deal, but since the balance of trade is very much with the EU, it's not going to be a very good one for the UK.

We already having an existing framework and known relationships, nor are our demands anywhere near as extreme as what the US is asking for. It is also in the interests of both parties for there to be an amicable settlement, and one which produces as few economic shockwaves as possible.

1-2% of GDP is not marginal at all. That's tons, especially in an age of low growth. The worst-case scenario for Out is also really bad.

From where do you get a 2% fall in GDP?

The UK has fought against stuff like workers' rights that was pushed by the EU. For example, Case C-84/94 (on the WTA), or the Pregnant Workers Directive.

How about you tell me which basic rights you envisage British workers losing by 2017?

 

[sun_tzu]

How about you tell me which basic rights you envisage British workers losing by 2017?

the right to work (and live) anywhere in Europe?

 

[Zarlak]

So yo don't agree with either British or EU policy on migration?

That is not synonymous with not caring about the plight of English communities.

 

[Stanley Road]

as well as our existing vetos and opt outs
up to 4 years for eu immigrants to get full access to in work benefits (subject to showing the strain migrants are placing on the system - the so called control brake)
A pledge that non eurozone countries will not have to contribute financially to any eurozone bailouts
A pledge to reduce EU red tape and the burden on businesses
An agreement that if a child lives in a different country (eg poland) than any child benefit paid will be at the local rate and not at UK rates

Plus EU leaders are being open and honest and saying that any renegotiations in the event of brexit will not be easy

What more can they do / should they do?

Well, show signs of panic if its that bad. Campaign on the streets of the uk, bribe people. I dunno, they seem a bit "Oh Well"

Those concessions are the watered down version of what "call me Dave" asked for

 

[sun_tzu]

Well, show signs of panic if its that bad. Campaign on the streets of the uk, bribe people. I dunno, they seem a bit "Oh Well"

Those concessions are the watered down version of what "call me Dave" asked for

the "concessions" / agreements were always irrelevant to be honest... most people who are going to vote could have told you 2 years ago which way they would vote - the key is going to be either putting enough doubt into some people on the opposite side they dont vote - or more importantly getting their own sides vote out
I'd still say remain is the most likely - but it will be close - and either way cameron is finished

 

[TheSamulator]

That cuts both ways you realise: not only are you ambivalent about the plight of English communities, but also the experiences of persecuted migrants. The status quo neither serves the member states as it should, nor the hundreds of thousands of migrants seeking entry along the EU's border. And so detached have politicians become, that they can't even recognise their own culpability in the rise of fringe parties.

just call me a thick cnut next time please mate.

 

[Rams]

Can somebody please explain this plight of English communities is? Being hoarded out of their homes by millions of Poles? Raped & tortued by billions of Latvians? All these well paid jobs such as toilet attendants being stolen by trillions of Hungarians? Starvation even?

 

[PedroMendez]

as well as our existing vetos and opt outs
up to 4 years for eu immigrants to get full access to in work benefits (subject to showing the strain migrants are placing on the system - the so called control brake)
A pledge that non eurozone countries will not have to contribute financially to any eurozone bailouts
A pledge to reduce EU red tape and the burden on businesses
An agreement that if a child lives in a different country (eg poland) than any child benefit paid will be at the local rate and not at UK rates

Plus EU leaders are being open and honest and saying that any renegotiations in the event of brexit will not be easy

What more can they do / should they do?

GB leaving the EU could have a massive impact, but most European bureaucrats/politicians understand that any involvement will further alienate the British public so they try to stay out of it. Making any further substantial concession to GB would also create tension with other countries, so there is little room to navigate.


When GB leaves, the balance of power in Europe will shift to France (+Spain/Italy). GB is the one outspoken advocate for liberal economic policy (considering the major powers in Europe). Without GB, Europe politics will shift a lot to the left, which means more regulation, more central planning and more bureaucracy and less individual freedom. That could alienate a couple of smaller nations, who don´t fancy those policies. If GB does well outside the EU (and I don´t believe any of those dooms-day predictions), those nations will be encouraged to do the same.

It is really hard to predict the consequences of a Brexit (in Europe and in GB). Almost everything is possible between business as usual and major upheaval.

 

[Zarlak]

GB leaving the EU could have a massive impact, but most European bureaucrats/politicians understand that any involvement will further alienate the British public so they try to stay out of it. Making any further substantial concession to GB would also create tension with other countries, so there is little room to navigate.


When GB leaves, the balance of power in Europe will shift to France (+Spain/Italy). GB is the one outspoken advocate for liberal economic policy (considering the major powers in Europe). Without GB, Europe politics will shift a lot to the left, which means more regulation, more central planning and more bureaucracy and less individual freedom. That could alienate a couple of smaller nations, who don´t fancy those policies. If GB does well outside the EU (and I don´t believe any of those dooms-day predictions), those nations will be encouraged to do the same.

It is really hard to predict the consequences of a Brexit (in Europe and in GB). Almost everything is possible between business as usual and major upheaval.

That's the problem, this seems to be the motto of the leavers and it's such a bullshit reason to do it. Where is the actual plan.

 

[x42bn6]

I found this to be an interesting read (1.5 MB PDF): Does the EU work for working class people?

 

[Rams]

GB leaving the EU could have a massive impact, but most European bureaucrats/politicians understand that any involvement will further alienate the British public so they try to stay out of it. Making any further substantial concession to GB would also create tension with other countries, so there is little room to navigate.


When GB leaves, the balance of power in Europe will shift to France (+Spain/Italy). GB is the one outspoken advocate for liberal economic policy (considering the major powers in Europe). Without GB, Europe politics will shift a lot to the left, which means more regulation, more central planning and more bureaucracy and less individual freedom. That could alienate a couple of smaller nations, who don´t fancy those policies. If GB does well outside the EU (and I don´t believe any of those dooms-day predictions), those nations will be encouraged to do the same.

It is really hard to predict the consequences of a Brexit (in Europe and in GB). Almost everything is possible between business as usual and major upheaval.

That's some statement!
Why would the balance of power, if there is one, shift to France and Spain/Italy? Why would that mean a shift to the left, more central planning, regulation and bureaucracy? And which small nations will be encouraged to leave the EU and why?

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

the right to work (and live) anywhere in Europe?

Maybe by the end of 2018...

Although i suspect that people are typically referring to are issues such as parental leave. Yet there is no chance of a Commons majority voting to abolish a mother or father's right to such.

That is not synonymous with not caring about the plight of English communities.

Given that Remain offers little prospect of significant reform, the present difficulties are unlikely to be alleviated anytime soon.

just call me a thick cnut next time please mate.

I did not not mean that at all. However i do believe that years of governments not caring about the issue, has helped to create the situation in which we now find ourselves. Had either Labour or the Conservatives shown that they could be trusted on the matter (and Brussels allowed even modest controls), Cameron might well have been able to resist calls for a referendum.

 

[Rams]

Maybe by the end of 2018...

Although i suspect that people are typically referring to are issues such as parental leave. Yet there is no chance of a Commons majority voting to abolish a mother or father's right to such.


Given that Remain offers little prospect of significant reform, the present difficulties are unlikely to be alleviated anytime soon.




I did not not mean that at all. However i do believe that years of governments not caring about the issue, has helped to create the situation in which we now find ourselves. Had either Labour or the Conservatives shown that they could be trusted on the matter (and Brussels allowed even modest controls), Cameron might well have been able to resist calls for a referendum.

What is the plight of the English communities? Sounds really serious and desperate.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So what is the EU actually doing to try and keep the UK in if they feel exit will be a disaster for Europe?

We're all so fed up with the whingeing limeys we now can't wait for them to leave

 

[Zarlak]

Given that Remain offers little prospect of significant reform, the present difficulties are unlikely to be alleviated anytime soon.

That's your opinion, and a poor reason to try to bridge the gap between a difference of opinion and not caring about the plight of English communities.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Can somebody please explain this plight of English communities is? Being hoarded out of their homes by millions of Poles? Raped & tortued by billions of Latvians? All these well paid jobs such as toilet attendants being stolen by trillions of Hungarians? Starvation even?

You and i have already had this debate, your answer was along the lines of: "just build more houses, innit".

And the pressure on infrastructure and low wages would be the same anyway...

 

[BringNaniBack]

So what is the EU actually doing to try and keep the UK in if they feel exit will be a disaster for Europe?

Pathetic stuff like this: http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...ace-the-consequences-if-they-vote-for-brexit/

Their failed EU experiment is already on the verge of collapse and if Britain leaves other members will soon follow.

 

[DOTA]

@Nick 0208 Ldn How do you think the 'out' campaign is going? Anything you'd highlight that they're getting wrong (I don't think it's unfair to suggest they are getting things wrong)?

 

[Rams]

You and i have already had this debate, your answer was along the lines of: "just build more houses, innit".

And the pressure on infrastructure and low wages would be the same anyway...

Well, building more houses would be start! So would doing something about half a century of neglet of Britains infrastructure. Have you ever been to the continent before? It's like being in a SiFi movie compared to Britain despite the amount of immigrants on the continent.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

That's your opinion, and a poor reason to try to bridge the gap between a difference of opinion and not caring about the plight of English communities.

What hope does your support of Remain offer to people? What sustainable solutions will materialise through victory in this referendum?

And you would say that the EU has shown itself to be an institution capable of reforming, that it is no longer on a course of centralisation?

 

[Rams]

Pathetic stuff like this: http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...ace-the-consequences-if-they-vote-for-brexit/

Their failed EU experiment is already on the verge of collapse and if Britain leaves other members will soon follow.

Well, I live in Holland and I can confirm the Dutch will leave the EU as soon as the UK does. ...errrr, I think.

 

[Zarlak]

What hope does your support of Remain offer to people? What sustainable solutions will materialise through victory in this referendum?

And you would say that the EU has shown itself to be an institution capable of reforming, that it is no longer on a course of centralisation?

Whatever my hopes are don't change what I said, which is that your opinion differing to mine doesn't mean I don't care about the plight of English communities. It's very simplistic and akin to the vegan 'you don't care about animals' argument.

I would say that the few flaws that the people are pissed off with the EU about in my opinion come nowhere near to outweighing the benefits that we get from them. I don't believe in cutting my leg off when I hurt my ankle.

I would also say that in order to take action you have a plan. Can you give me a plan? Right now your plan seems to be to high 5 everyone for escaping the EU and then not really know where to go after that. I'd contend that that is so far past moronic that you can't even see it anymore. All I've seen from the leavers is a set of 'well.... this might happen....' and 'we could do this....' just what seem to be overly optimistic hopes for some bright sunny future with nothing concrete to actually move forward with.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well, I live in Holland and I can confirm the Dutch will leave the EU as soon as the UK does. ...errrr, I think.

Pretty sure France will leave as well, or maybe not

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Whatever my hopes are don't change what I said, which is that your opinion differing to mine doesn't mean I don't care about the plight of English communities. It's very simplistic and akin to the vegan 'you don't care about animals' argument.

I would say that the few flaws that the people are pissed off with the EU about in my opinion come nowhere near to outweighing the benefits that we get from them. I don't believe in cutting my leg off when I hurt my ankle.

I would also say that in order to take action you have a plan. Can you give me a plan? Right now your plan seems to be to high 5 everyone for escaping the EU and then not really know where to go after that. I'd contend that that is so far past moronic that you can't even see it anymore. All I've seen from the leavers is a set of 'well.... this might happen....' and 'we could do this....'

I couldn't agree with you more

 

[Zarlak]

If I got home tonight and my housemate proposed moving and I asked him where and he said he didn't know, but he didn't like the taps in the bathroom or the way the bathroom light blinks a few times before it came on so we should move because we'd totally be better off but yet he wanted to hand the keys in first and then wing it finding a new place in some kind of optimistic hope that it'll be better then I'd slap him.

 

[DOTA]

I, for one, think interrogating Zarlak about his abusive relationship with his housemates would be much more interesting than most of the tripe we post in here.

 

[Zarlak]

I, for one, think interrogating Zarlak about his abusive relationship with his housemates would be much more interesting than most of the tripe we post in here.

Basically if either of us acts like an idiot we have each others back.

 

[Dans]

Well, I live in Holland and I can confirm the Dutch will leave the EU as soon as the UK does. ...errrr, I think.

Well I live in Germany.............errrr hang on.

 

[DOTA]

Basically if either of us acts like an idiot we have each others back.

That's quite cute.

EDIT - I was in the running for 'friendliest poster' one year. Steve or Penna won, natch, I forget which. Still... people do get the wrong idea of me. I'm really quite mean.

 

[Zarlak]

That's quite cute.

It's also how Naz... wait no that's not it.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

I wouldn't be surprised if this made some headlines tomorrow:

@Nick 0208 Ldn How do you think the 'out' campaign is going? Anything you'd highlight that they're getting wrong (I don't think it's unfair to suggest they are getting things wrong)?

Considering the presence of two distinctive Out groups and their respective egos, the opening stages went well enough. Conversely, Labour and the Lib Dems have sat back and allowed Cameron to do most of the talking, which has made his task a simpler one. I think that Leave could stand to be far more aggressive against the Prime Minister though, and such would be a just reward for the uglier side to campaigning.

Whilst the NHS argument was a good one, it really ought to have been supplemented with other causes, like sovereignty and housing. Leave was also caught somewhat flat-footed by the stream of dubious financial reports, a problem which should have been foreseen.

Personally, I'd rather that immigration hadn't taken on such an overwhelming degree of importance, yet the poll numbers have improved recently.

Well, building more houses would be start! So would doing something about half a century of neglet of Britains infrastructure. Have you ever been to the continent before? It's like being in a SiFi movie compared to Britain despite the amount of immigrants on the continent.

Many times in fact; the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden and Croatia number among places i'd like to re-visit next year if possible (Amsterdam and Kiel in particular). I'll be going to the Italian lakes in August, and possibly Vienna later in the year. Brexiters do not dislike Europe, only the European Union. I should see its demise as a blessing for all Europe; we deserve far better than the EU to represent us.

As for infrastructure...well it depends on where you go. For all that it is well subsidised, my impressions of the French rail network are mixed. The Paris metro may well have improved since i was last there, but i thought it inferior to the Underground (which wasn't what i was expecting). I would also say that we do okay when it comes to airports, however i know that some here hold rather more negative opinions.

But yes, we absolutely need to build more homes and put billions into regeneration. Osborne should be doing more of the latter already, except the government is too busy making u-turns. Yet the demands put those necessities of living can only worsen if immigration of 330,000 becomes a commonplace. All we would ask for is the ability to regulate excessive numbers, hardly the Trumpian extremes of which some speak.