EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?

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I've never voted but I am going to and want to vote in this one. I know it actually makes a difference so my apathy has gone (local elections for instance, St. Helens is always a Labour vote so there's no point otherwise). I know what the EU was originally intended to be/do and the fact that it's nothing like that now.

However I know the square root of feck all about the pros and cons of either and from what I can tell, neither side has a cohesive argument.

There's no precedent because we've never left before (has anyone?) so all those saying this will happen or that will happen are guessing.

It looks to me as well that Cameron will not survive because either we stay and he has massive internal opposition in his own party or we leave and he immediately looks completely weak, hopeless and not representative of what his country wants. So in that sense this is just the precursor vote to a much more important general election.

Either we vote out and then it becomes really bloody important who we vote into power at the next election, or we stay in and it's just whoever takes over from him then.

If we stay in then nothing really changes and things aren't particularly great. If we leave then we're essentially just allowing the Tories to screw the poor over even more. Seems like a lose-lose situation and a complete guess/gut instinct vote no matter what?

Please (genuinely becuase I want to learn and I'm trying with politics) correct me on anything there.
 
[QUOTE="matherto, post: 19279490, member: 47218". So in that sense this is just the precursor vote to a much more important general election.
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Not necessarily... They don't have to call an election they could just appoint Boris

That said if Boris has the opportunity to call a snap election against Corbyn I think he would... It may turn into a race to get rid of their leaders
 
NinjaFletch said:
All 36% of the electorate did, yeah.
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The elected government is delivering a referendum according to it's fairly recent election manifesto. If you're against our current form of democracy then campaign to change it, but linking this to one particular issue is reminiscent of whingeing about the referee after you've lost for me.

For what it's worth I've posted previously that Cameron only called for a referendum at all to keep his party from breaking apart, irrespective of the damage one would cause, but that's just my personal view, the electorate decided to support him so he has the right to go ahead.
 
712 said:
The elected government is delivering a referendum according to it's fairly recent election manifesto. If you're against our current form of democracy then campaign to change it, but linking this to one particular issue is reminiscent of whingeing about the referee after you've lost for me.
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They have a slim majority based on the vast majority of the electorate not voting for them. I can, and regularly do, whinge about how downright ridiculous a system FPTP is, but I don't think its ridiculous to argue that 36% of the vote does not provide a particularly strong mandate.
 
NinjaFletch said:
They have a slim majority based on the vast majority of the electorate not voting for them. I can, and regularly do, whinge about how downright ridiculous a system FPTP is, but I don't think its ridiculous to argue that 36% of the vote does not provide a particularly strong mandate.
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Tbf, it's 36% as well as those who voted for UKIP, which takes that 'vote' for a referendum to a majority (or very close to it).
 
ThierryHenry said:
Tbf, it's 36% as well as those who voted for UKIP, which takes that 'vote' for a referendum to a majority (or very close to it).
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Only if you assume that everyone that voted Tory agreed with them on this issue, which is a fairly huge assumption.
 
pocco said:
I do agree with one point that Michael Gove makes regarding Brussels passing laws that govern us when we're supposed to be a democratic society with an elected government. Who do these people answer to?
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You mean undemocratic compared to the wonderfully archaic electoral system in the UK with its first past the post system and the constituates, that get manipulated by successive governments meaning that a party can with an election without having the largest number of votes?
Actually, the EU is more democratic than might seem on first sight. The criticism might be more with regards to the relative say in matters each member state has. I would understand the argument to leave in a sense that every member state has a say in which EU directives are implemented. I personally wouldn't agree with that being a reason to leave, but I could understand it.
 
Stanley Road said:
No One but they only make stupid laws like bananas must be straight
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There may be laws which might seem stupid. And the EU isn't perfect. However, most directives made by the EU are for the benefit of social welfare, human rights and workers rights. The people who benefit are people like you and me, the average man on the street.
 
The way I see it the argument boils down to:

1. We can have our sole elected government rule us Vs unelected European people can make decisions about country -

The elected government in our country is extremely unpopular, actually is their any politician in recent history that a significant majority of the population trust in this country. they all do away with their campaign principles to a large degree unless it suits their agenda. can anyone genuinely hold their hands up and say they think the government has done a perfect job?

I highly doubt it, on the other hand we have a group of people who control so much power but are unelected, however do they really effect the day to day lives of most people, not really. Most if not all of our laws that effect us are made by our own government, if the EU want to spend their time making laws about importing the best bananas for the EU as possible so be it. But the anecdotes about how the uk fishing industry has gone down the drain because of the EU is daft, do people really think it wouldn't have just because of market forces anyway, I don't think their would be many here who would jump at the chance to work on a freezing cold ship for minimum wage, it would just go the way of a lot of other industries that wouldn't be able to recruit people to do the job and stil stay viable. Another argument is it props up failing industries in other countries while making it difficult for ours to succeed but if your in the EU you have to
look after your neighbours for it to succeed.

If we left we would be relying on our own government to be in sole control, can't say I trust them to make the right decisions. I like to think i'm fairy well informed on current affairs, the way the world works and i'm an educated person but I don't know what's the best thing to do in every situation and neither would anyone else. When I look at the government I see numerous examples of them going against industry advice, when I look at the EU at least I see them trying to gather evidence and improve the countries we live in, albeit it might take them 200 laws to govern milk.

2. Economy

We're in a state economically, we seem to be papering over the cracks. Both sides of the argument are speculating on what might happen after the referendum. No one knows but I would trust the speculation of the large economic bodies in this world than some of the other people that have come out in favour of the out campaign.

My own speculation would be that we would be worse off because of how much trade we do with the EU. We already struggle to make good agreements with other countries outside the EU, can't see that will improve when we have a smaller piece of the pie in negotiating when compared to negotiating while in the EU. If were going to continue to rely on trade with the EU were better of in because we would still have to pay them as much money and abide by their laws but have no say.

Like I said everyone's speculating and I have no reason to say my speculating is better than others however it feels as if people are looking after their own pocket with the out campaign. They sound like that guy everyone knows will fix your car for you rather than taking it to a garage and it will be cheaper, better, last longer, you'll get one over on the man! sounds too good to be true despite everyone else saying your better off getting it fixed in the garage for twice the price. ultimately if you don't know what your talking about you seek advice from professionals, who in the case of the economy are saying were better off in, they might be wrong but they stand a better change of getting it right than most of us.

3. Are we European

A lot of people say were not European, were British. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, I feel welsh, British and European. I think being welsh I have different values and a connection that I share with other welsh people compared to English people. I feel more connected to british people than Others from europe but I also share a lot in common with other European people than I do from other people across the world.

A big part of this is immigration, personally I think our society is enhanced by immigration particularly those from other european countries, who we generally have a lot in common with culturally despite what the daily mail/ukip like to tell us. the arguement that they take jobs is nonsense, we have had to take immigrants for hundreds of years to fill voids in the job market and most are very skilled.

Infact if we left the EU we would likely end up taking a lot more immigrants from other countries outside of europe who were a lot more culturally different from in order to fill voids in the job market.

Overall I couldn't possibly vote for anything but to remain in the EU, and while we could be doing better as a country I think the EU is one of the things holding it all together at the moment, and one of the best things about our country even if it has it's own faults.
 
NinjaFletch said:
They have a slim majority based on the vast majority of the electorate not voting for them. I can, and regularly do, whinge about how downright ridiculous a system FPTP is, but I don't think its ridiculous to argue that 36% of the vote does not provide a particularly strong mandate.
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It obviously isn't a particularly strong mandate, yet a mandate it remains. It's not ridiculous so much as irrelevant, bringing it up doesn't support your views on either remain or leave, whatever they might be. In fact I've forgotten what they are now, sorry.
 
712 said:
It obviously isn't a particularly strong mandate, yet a mandate it remains. It's not ridiculous so much as irrelevant, bringing it up doesn't support your views on either remain or leave, whatever they might be. In fact I've forgotten what they are now, sorry.
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Its absolutely relevant to the debate of whether we should be having a referendum in the first place which is what we were talking about.
 
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MSN have had some EU polls up on the news section of their homepage in the last few days. It started with a basic poll question of something like "should Britain leave the EU?" and leave won by a landslide but they seemed to take the poll down and start again (I know this at it shows how many votes have been cast) but again Leave won the new poll by miles. Since then they have changed the questions on the poll each day but it is always the same result with Brexit winning by a huge percentage.

Either most people online are genuinely in favor of Brexit or there is a Brexit army going around swaying all of these online polls lol.
 
Fearless said:
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Complete and utter tripe!!!!

I just hope people are wise enough to take the time and educate themselves about the EU so that they are able to make a well informed decision what to vote based upon the facts, whatever their vote may be.
 
The Moment of Truth :lol:

For the first minute I thought he was talking about the British Government, then for the next 2 minutes I thought he was talking about UKIP, then I died laughing and gave up.
Career politicians, rubbish, they're all doing it for the benefit of the people, don't you know
 
BringNaniBack said:
He is spot on. But its all a big joke here and most of this forum will laugh it off as conspiracy rubbish :wenger:.
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Indeed, he's spot on. Let's analyse his first few sentences to start. By remaining in the EU the citizens of the U.K. are handing over all their political power to an organization that has been wrong about everything and is akin to the Soviet Union. This is obviously the most factual, objective and correct statement I have ever heard in my live.
 
The short term economic crisis is the worry for me, the markets will react badly. Both sides have been shite at putting their arguments together, and anyone who has a brain can see that IMF, OECD etc have a massive vested interest that doesn't allow them to give an impartial treatment. Bottom line is nobody knows the actual effect of Brexit, personally feel there will be 'shy brexiters' that will again make the predictive polls inaccurate.
 
Chorley1974 said:
The short term economic crisis is the worry for me, the markets will react badly. Both sides have been shite at putting their arguments together, and anyone who has a brain can see that IMF, OECD etc have a massive vested interest that doesn't allow them to give an impartial treatment. Bottom line is nobody knows the actual effect of Brexit, personally feel there will be 'shy brexiters' that will again make the predictive polls inaccurate.
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Why do you think the markets will react badly then?
 
Rams said:
Indeed, he's spot on. Let's analyse his first few sentences to start. By remaining in the EU the citizens of the U.K. are handing over all their political power to an organization that has been wrong about everything and is akin to the Soviet Union. This is obviously the most factual, objective and correct statement I have ever heard in my live.
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“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”

― Mikhail Gorbachev
 
Rams said:
So the global markets all over World will react based upon sentiment?
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That's pretty much all markets ever react to, forecasts and sentiment, complete guesswork, and they already are of course every time a new poll hits the papers. The main drivers are gamblers, betting on the direction to make their buck. I think many in the financial world will still believe remain will win though even if leave is edging a lead in the polls. If the vote turns out a leave vote, the panicked sell offs of anything to do with the UK will be enormous.

Even if leave win, I tend to think it still won't end up happening. When people see the real affect and the media have a field day with it, a second vote will be called. Of course the argument will be that it is only short term hurt, but people aren't that selfless to do something that might help the next generation prosper, not a chance.
 
BringNaniBack said:
MSN have had some EU polls up on the news section of their homepage in the last few days. It started with a basic poll question of something like "should Britain leave the EU?" and leave won by a landslide but they seemed to take the poll down and start again (I know this at it shows how many votes have been cast) but again Leave won the new poll by miles. Since then they have changed the questions on the poll each day but it is always the same result with Brexit winning by a huge percentage.

Either most people online are genuinely in favor of Brexit or there is a Brexit army going around swaying all of these online polls lol.
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I'll wager it's more that the Brexit guys are a bit on the fanatic side and the opposing side is moderate (that is, they aren't interested in moral victories on random webpages).
 
Lagger said:
I'll wager it's more that the Brexit guys are a bit on the fanatic side and the opposing side is moderate (that is, they aren't interested in moral victories on random webpages).
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They probably aren't that interested in voting on the day either.
 
Lagger said:
I'll wager it's more that the Brexit guys are a bit on the fanatic side and the opposing side is moderate (that is, they aren't interested in moral victories on random webpages).
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The exact opposite to this thread then. :)
 
BringNaniBack said:
Better off watching "The moment of Truth" video than reading this crap which implies everything about Brexit will be negative.
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You mean the article that implies that the UK is no longer a super power and will have to deal with an gigantic amount of factual administration issues as well as describing scenarios from both sides of the arguments?
 
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