Yeah that hasn't really happened though in my opinion. Leaving the EU is quite a big move so I'll need more than just "masters of our own destiny" rubbish. I haven't received it yet
EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.
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Yeah that hasn't really happened though in my opinion. Leaving the EU is quite a big move so I'll need more than just "masters of our own destiny" rubbish. I haven't received it yet
I've felt like this since the start. I like referendums, although your argument against them is certainly a valid one, and in a world of FPTP and an unrepresentative House of Commons its one way someone like me, who lives in a part of the country where my vote does not matter, can actually get heard regardless of the outcome.
But yes, regardless of your views on leaving or remaining, this campaign has gone exactly as I feared. Two sides failing to inform the debate, attempting to score cheap points and outright lying to mislead voters. Even if some claim to have all the facts, its blatantly obvious that our future is going to be decided largely by people that do not, who have not bothered to inform themselves, and will vote the way they do for stupid reasons. Even if the electorate makes the right decision, whatever anyones perception of the right decision is, surely it can't sit well with people that its going to be effectively made based on whether or not people like Dave, whether they think Farage is a racist or not, or whether England are doing well in the Euros?
Yeah tbf though, the electoral commission leaflet that came through the door with one page on Remain and one on Leave was a perfect example of why most of Remain's arguments aren't scaremongering, and most of Leave's are.
Remain provided about a dozen facts / opinions fully referenced with the organisation or organisations whose reports backed them up.
Leave presented about a dozen completely unreferenced facts / opinions, many of which were essentially saying the exact opposite of the fully referenced Remain side.
If you can stomach it, have a read of how many of the Leave campaigns 'facts' didn't in any way stand up to Parliamentary scrutiny.
http://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...benefits-of-uks-eu-membership/oral/32135.html
Sadiq and Cameron(cringe)
No more than so than the individual governments of it's members, including the UK's.
Yes and all together its 20 fold
Concern over immigration delivers a 'significant' poll boost to the Leave campaign amid growing concern about control over UK borders
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...ders/ar-BBtFf8j?li=BBoPRmx&ocid=mailsignoutmd
It's all it really comes down to for the leave campaign voters.
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...ders/ar-BBtFf8j?li=BBoPRmx&ocid=mailsignoutmd
It's all it really comes down to for the leave campaign voters.
Maybe the ones you talk to
Well that's all it can be as the numbers don't stack up on the financial side of it, it doesn't stack up in terms of international relations, they haven't presented any coherent view as to how regulations would be affected or who would make the changes...
You've got some notional idea of national sovereignty that ignores the fact we're already 4 nations, and we'd be allowed to be a bit more racist.
I don't think it's unfair to say that immigration is the most significant topic for 'leave' voters. Or that that is an unfair position to hold - over 300k net migration every year is a huge figure.
What's horrendous is how unclear both campaigns are in explaining what voting for 'leave' or 'remain' would mean for immigration (alongside other matters).
What's horrendous is how unclear both campaigns are in explaining what voting for 'leave' or 'remain' would mean for immigration (alongside other matters).
I'm sure you're the exception to the rule and there are others like minded ,but the majority of the voters are worried about immigration. It's why the leave campaign as switched focus on migration because they are losing the financial argument.
Well it's an easy argument to win when successive governments have failed to meet targets I suppose
Weatherspoons put their cards on the table... we're about to see what exactly is the political power potential of 200,000 beermats.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/31/wetherspoons-brexit-beer-mats-eu-referendum-imf
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/31/wetherspoons-brexit-beer-mats-eu-referendum-imf
Thats great
Wait if we choose to leave, do we also leave the IMF as well?
Also it's odd that the weatherspoons boss wants to leave the EU when they hire so many EU migrants.
Also it's odd that the weatherspoons boss wants to leave the EU when they hire so many EU migrants.
Seems the poll is moving slowly in favour of leave.
The Brexit train is building up speed
. The poll on here is the only independent online poll I have seen with remain ahead, usually they have leave miles ahead. New ICM poll out today also has leave ahead which we haven't seen for a while in the ICM polls.Yes I know many of these polls are unreliable before people start moaning.
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The Brexit train is building up speed
Yes I know many of these polls are unreliable before people start moaning.
I would like to thank Boris and Farage because I have gained significantly monetarily wise because of their incompetence.
I have now changed my mind and hope that Leave wins.
At least if the UK leave the voters can no longer blame the government for any problems the UK suffers whether it be Labour or Tory or the NF because they would have been democratically voted into office... ooh wait
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I suspect this has already been discussed earlier in the thread, but in case it hasn't, then I recommend you watch this:
I recommend everyone take the time to watch it before voting. I was in the remain camp, for similar reasons to Steven Seagull, but after watching this I'll be voting to leave. The stuff about Switzerland and the trade deals is what really got me, as despite all the good arguments about democracy and being "masters of our own destiny," I didn't feel that was enough to gamble our future on. But when you see how Switzerland prospers outside of the EU and how poor the trade deals the EU has are, then I really can't see why we too can't prosper outside of the regulation of the EU.
If this film has already been discussed, sorry I haven't read much of this thread.
Ah yes Switzerland, with all their concessions they had to make to the EU in order to broker those trade deals.
Hardly.
Switzerland's success is way, way more complicated than "being outside of the EU". Not getting bombed to bits in World War II, for example, definitely helped.
One man's "excessive regulation" is another man's security, too, such as the workers' rights laws passed by the EU (and, coincidentally, fought by the UK).
We live in an increasingly-connected world, and the EU is going to remain a huge part of the UK's life, In or Out. We're going to have to adopt similar legislation to the EU most of the time anyway if British businesses want to deal with EU countries. We're going to struggle to influence the world's largest trading bloc - we already struggle to influence the US. Heck, we can't even influence ourselves, thanks to our ridiculous voting system (which is arguably even worse than how the EU commissioners are appointed).
If the UK had a stronger economy, much stronger productivity figures, took an active lead on workers' and human rights issues, and had a workable voting system, then yes, maybe Brexit would make more sense. But right now, our only claim to fame is that we have a "not-bad" economy. We're behind the EU in many other areas.
After all, what has the EU ever done for us?
Did i do so?
Do those of Remain? The OECD's working assumption is that no deal with Europe will be possible before 2023; moreover, we'll fail in negotiations with everyone else. Whereas the Treasury's report much praised by the FT, quite brazenly used the wrong data to reach its conclusions (from its claims about household income to future EU contributions).
The trouble for Remain, is that the most plausible financial consequences are marginal, and likely to be offset as time passes.
You wish for a half a dozen manifestos, and all of them pre-empting negotiations?
I guess that you must have missed John Major's comparison between Brexit and North Korea then, or Cameron's insinuation that Islamic State would vote for Leave? And then there are people like Caroline Lucas who tell voters that we won't have any basic rights to speak of.
How non-EU countries actually manage to survive in this world of ours...
Spot on.
What disappoints me about the remain campaign is the negativity and the lack of information about how Mr Average has benefitted from the UK being in the EU. And the irony is that I can't help feeling it's exactly the people likely to vote for leave who are most likely to benefit from the UK being in the EU.
To be fair most countries in the World aren't part of Europe, and almost all countries in Europe are in the EU or want to join the EU.
The average trade deal takes forever to negotiate. Canada's deal with the EU took nearly a decade from inception to completion.
Yes, the UK can "fast-track" a deal, but since the balance of trade is very much with the EU, it's not going to be a very good one for the UK.
1-2% of GDP is not marginal at all. That's tons, especially in an age of low growth. The worst-case scenario for Out is also really bad.
The UK has fought against stuff like workers' rights that was pushed by the EU. For example, Case C-84/94 (on the WTA), or the Pregnant Workers Directive.
Having workers rights is great but only if you can keep people in work to have those rights. The EU is failing in growth and employing people particularly young people in southern Europe.
I don't want to waste huge amounts of the budget subsidising farming and underspending on R+D which could change the dynamic.
The EU spends its budget based on internal political expediency rather than on economic merit. If it keeps doing so it will continue to fail and there is no sign it is going to change.
There is not much point voting leave if the economy tanks because of it.
There is not much point voting remain if the EU carries on as it is denying there is a world outside of the EU in which it has underperformed.
I don't want to waste huge amounts of the budget subsidising farming and underspending on R+D which could change the dynamic.
The EU spends its budget based on internal political expediency rather than on economic merit. If it keeps doing so it will continue to fail and there is no sign it is going to change.
There is not much point voting leave if the economy tanks because of it.
There is not much point voting remain if the EU carries on as it is denying there is a world outside of the EU in which it has underperformed.
Is there an unbiased summary anywhere of the pros and cons to both arguments? I'm going to vote but I've barely heard any useful information to help me decide.
First of all you are confusing the EU with the Eurozone. Nobody is asking the UK to join the Euro.
Secondly, I would argue if it wasn't for the single market the economies of Europe would be far worse off then they are now. You can not blame problems of the global economy in general on the EU. Leaving the EU will not lead to better growth of employment opportunities for the UK, the opposite is true in fact. The economic argument to leave is very weak to say the least.
And this is why a referendum was probably a bad idea on Cameron's part. Majority of the electorate are going to vote without really understanding the pros & cons.
There is an argument that the entire world is failing to keep people in work, not just the EU. The young are getting shafted everywhere, including the US.
True, the EU has underperformed in the last few years, but then again, with low growth rates across the world, does it really mean much? The UK may have outperformed the EU, but a big part of that is because... the UK is in the EU, with whom a large proportion of trade is performed.
The UK spends less on R&D (as a portion of GDP) than the EU as a whole.
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...pe_2020_indicators_-_research_and_development
See above - the world is struggling for growth, not just the EU. We could be in a time where low growth is the new norm.
My stance is that employment and the economy is just one factor, anyway, and one that we arguably have bigger questions to ask about with automation on the rise (after all, the ideal company in a few years time has zero employees and AI). And on progressive social change, the EU is dragging the UK kicking and screaming into it.
Postal vote came through today, im going for staying in for two reasons. One, its obviously better at least mid term for the economy and two, if i ever want to live/work elsewhere in Europe.
I wont see it as the end of the world if we vote out either.
I wont see it as the end of the world if we vote out either.
Can someone here on the remain side explain to me the logic behind why house prices will fall and why it isn't just a scare tactic?
Even factoring in some pulled foreign investment I can't see it cooling the market dramatically outside of the luxury London.
Even factoring in some pulled foreign investment I can't see it cooling the market dramatically outside of the luxury London.
That's a great example of whom this referendum is about. Most young people would love house prices to fall.
There are many different factors that will affect the property market. Biggest one is confidence, then the other factors, purchase power, demand etc.
Central London is already hit and the luxury market has dropped significantly over the past 6/9 months with a fear of Brexit.
This doesn't apply so much to the average UK household, but if is likely foreign investment diminishes, companies leave the Uk to transfer into the EU.
It is inevitable that the Pound will take a hit on the currency exchanges which means that the cost of importing goods, food will rise considerably as the UK is a nett importer and that's without factoring in the Duties and taxes that will be applied to foreign goods depending on the 'new deals' that Brexit are arranging. Brexit even admit there will be a hit to the economy - they think short term, this I doubt.
How do people afford to buy houses when the value of the money in their pocket has greatly diminished and inevitable higher unemployment - thus reduced demand.
Young people trying to get on the housing ladder may be pleased but if the value of their money in their pocket has also diminished in value along with the price of houses then they still cannot afford to get on the ladder
Speculation
The closer the referendum gets, the more annoyed I find myself at the fact that we actually have to vote on this. One of the biggest, most complicated and important political decisions we'll ever have to make... and it's being left to an uninformed electorate to decide who have no idea of the real ramifications of what a vote either way will really mean for our futures. Even intelligent voters who are trying to remain fully informed are still second guessing what this will all mean. What really is the point in Government if they abdicate such responsibility?
I glance down my Facebook feed and the amount of utterly ignorant posts on either side of the divide about this is just depressing. These people will get a say on it as well. Even the lad who posted the other day that Britain 'definitely shouldn't join the EU'. It really does feel like a sorry state of affairs.
I glance down my Facebook feed and the amount of utterly ignorant posts on either side of the divide about this is just depressing. These people will get a say on it as well. Even the lad who posted the other day that Britain 'definitely shouldn't join the EU'. It really does feel like a sorry state of affairs.
The worlds fastest growing economies are all outside Europe, says something
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