EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?


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Its hard not to get dragged into the immigration debate when Remainers accuse you of being racist for even considering leaving the EU though.

I thinks it is probably possible for the UK government to create immigration policy and an immigration system which works better than the current one which is being imposed on it to a certain extent by the EU. Whether it would actually manage to do so I have my doubts.

Lets be clear though that the UK would not be looking to end all immigration post a Brexit vote but probably to get closer to a manageable net figure given the hundreds of thousand of people who leave the UK each year that wouldn't mean an end to people coming here to live.

The problem with your argument on the housing issue is the net figure and I suppose it is on those who think as you do to explain how you are going to build enough homes for everyone who needs one. It isn't happening right now and that is where the policy of free movement bites. People understand this and denying it is a problem is why UKIP has made the gains it has.
 
I was talking to a guy today who said post a Brexit vote that would be an end to UKIP.

It got me thinking about post a remain vote. Would that have the same effect as in the Scottish independence vote?

Would the Brexiters coalesce around UKIP as the one party representing the leave vote while the remain voters are split between the other parties and we end up with a UKIP government if Brexit get 42 to 45% and most of these voters transfer to UKIP?

Frightening thought this.
 
Its hard not to get dragged into the immigration debate when Remainers accuse you of being racist for even considering leaving the EU though.

I thinks it is probably possible for the UK government to create immigration policy and an immigration system which works better than the current one which is being imposed on it to a certain extent by the EU. Whether it would actually manage to do so I have my doubts.

Lets be clear though that the UK would not be looking to end all immigration post a Brexit vote but probably to get closer to a manageable net figure given the hundreds of thousand of people who leave the UK each year that wouldn't mean an end to people coming here to live.

The problem with your argument on the housing issue is the net figure and I suppose it is on those who think as you do to explain how you are going to build enough homes for everyone who needs one. It isn't happening right now and that is where the policy of free movement bites. People understand this and denying it is a problem is why UKIP has made the gains it has.

There's been a housing problem for decades. To suddenly start blaming it all on the EU and immigration is a very weak argument IMO. The only way to solve it is to build more houses, leaving the EU won't solve jack shit.
 
So in summary

Nothing to do with immigration - proven that it was higher before the the UK joined the EEC
Nothing to do with trade - obvious to anyone who understands finance that the Uk will shoot themselves in the foot if they leave
Nothing to do with laws - none of the major laws of the country are made by the EU
 
The UK's economy depends for approx. 45 % on exports to the EU. If the UK leave the EU and start negotiating that necessary trade deal with the EU, then the truth is that the UK will be obliged to make concessions on immigration to the UK of EU citizens. This is something which is conveniently not mentioned by the leave campaign. So in other words, you still end up with the same numbers of immigration. However, you won't have any influence on what happens in the EU anymore. This will happen if the UK leave, it's not even speculation.

On the contrary, your entire point is centred around speculation. You are projecting your vision of the future on events and declaring it to be truth.

Amidst the uncertainty and political shock of a Brexit, Brussels might see a more nuanced approach to immigration policy as a means of heading off trouble elsewhere in the EU. Alternatively, the concessions decided upon could be monetary in nature.


Not that i believe immigration is a bad thing. As already been discussed in this thread, the facts are that (EU) immigrants bring far more in to the UK than they take out. Also, the fact is that the reason of why some of the UK's services are overstretched is because of the lack of funding by the governments, and not because of the numbers of immigration. Another example, the reason why there is a housing shortage in the UK is because of the lack of new affordable housing built for decades now, and not because of the number of immigrants. Etc, etc, etc. So in actual fact, the whole immigration argument shouldn't even be part of the consideration whether to vote to leave or not!!!!

So you think that net immigration levels of one-million persons over a three year period, is of no relevance to housing policy and a sustainable environment? We just keep on constructing New Builds and problem solved huh.

It would also i suspect, be conducive to community relations if a degree of management could be applied when the flow is high,
 
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Australians seem to find it eazy to live and work in London without an eu passport so I doubt anyone from inside the eu will have a problem if uk leaves

Dunno if we have a trade deal with korea but I don't really have a problem obtaining things made there

It's all a load of guff
 
On the contrary, your entire point is centred around speculation. You are projecting your vision of the future on events and declaring it to be truth.

Amidst the uncertainty and political shock of a Brexit, Brussels might see a more nuanced approach to immigration policy as a means of heading off trouble elsewhere in the EU. Alternatively, the concessions decided upon could be monetary in nature.




So you think that net immigration levels of one-million persons over a three year period, is of no relevance to housing policy and a sustainable environment? We just keep on constructing New Builds and problem solved huh.

It would also i suspect, be conducive to community relations if a degree of management could be applied when the flow is high,

So not only are you now blaming the housing shortage on the EU, you're also blaming a lack of sustainable environment on the EU? What next can we blame the EU for, the crap weather?
 
So in summary

Nothing to do with immigration - proven that it was higher before the the UK joined the EEC
Nothing to do with trade - obvious to anyone who understands finance that the Uk will shoot themselves in the foot if they leave
Nothing to do with laws - none of the major laws of the country are made by the EU


In summary of what? are you drunk?
 
In summary Brexit have no idea what the reason is they want to leave. Why are you so pro-Brexit when you pretend you aren't , are you drunk?

How many times are you going to repeat this? You have been given numerous reasons why people want to leave but you ignore them or disregard them as they aren't realistically problems created by the EU in your (incorrect) opinion.
 
The whole thread is going around in circles.
Any trade deal done with Europe that involves acces to the single market without trade restrictions will require the right of employment of EU citizens in that country and other agreements on immigration. All members of the EEA such as Switzerland have these requirements. Not only that, the U.K. are the only member of the EU that blames their shite services, health care and housing shortage on immigration from the EU.
The whole immigration argument is false! If a small country like the Netherlands can provide citizens top quality services and a much better standard of living than the UK 'despite' being in the EU then I'm sure the UK could manage as well. If you are going to blame something then blame the way the country is run, not the EU.
 
I want us out, mainly just because I don't want to be part of some big union or eventually a world union like it looks like the elites and big business wants, along with the talked about 1 world currency. Its clear that just like Scotland vote, they don't want us leaving the EU and hence why all the media is full, or heavily biased towards staying. All the same old this company or that political figure says we'll be doomed if we leave. We ain't leaving people and don't have a choice, they own all the media and have our minds influenced as a result. They don't even need to fix the vote, they own us just like they do went the want to tell us to buy something or flock to a certain fashion. Plenty of sheep out there.

Not a UKipper by any means but Farage is right, we'd be fine if we left. Just scare mongering tactics that people always fall for. You watch, we'll be staying.

Choice is an illusion, so is democracy, its just a game. Those with the big cash, run things. I mean look at America, they get to "choose" a Bush, a Clinton or so buffoon elite with £10b. People power my arse.
 
How many times are you going to repeat this? You have been given numerous reasons why people want to leave but you ignore them or disregard them as they aren't realistically problems created by the EU in your (incorrect) opinion.

How many times are you going to repeat the same thing, I have not ignored any of the arguments put forward, they have all been proven by me and many others that these 'arguments' have no foundation whatsoever - I am waiting for an argument that does stand up. It's Brexit that keeps repeating the same thing over and over again despite the fact that they know they are in the wrong and then say Remain are scaremongering when Brexit have zero proof of anything to support their arguments and their entire campaign is based on non-founded speculation.
State a new realistic reason why the UK should leave and maybe people will listen
 
Not a fan on Dawkins recently but his comments on the EU vote are bang on. Cameron is a selfish fool for pushing this to a referendum, the public can't possibly be equipped with enough detailed knowledge to make an informed decision.

People are going to be voting on shallow reasoning and opinion and it could have a profound effect for all of us. I'm not happy that some of my ill informed mates/colleagues will get a vote on this because of politicians shirking responsibility.
 
Not a fan on Dawkins recently but his comments on the EU vote are bang on. Cameron is a selfish fool for pushing this to a referendum, the public can't possibly be equipped with enough detailed knowledge to make an informed decision.

People are going to be voting on shallow reasoning and opinion and it could have a profound effect for all of us. I'm not happy that some of my ill informed mates/colleagues will get a vote on this because of politicians shirking responsibility.

Yeah, I mean what was he thinking? Some will use the vote as a show of dislike to him and his repugnant colleagues, still think uk will stay in mind.

Better the devil you know and all that
 
I want us out, mainly just because I don't want to be part of some big union or eventually a world union like it looks like the elites and big business wants, along with the talked about 1 world currency. Its clear that just like Scotland vote, they don't want us leaving the EU and hence why all the media is full, or heavily biased towards staying. All the same old this company or that political figure says we'll be doomed if we leave. We ain't leaving people and don't have a choice, they own all the media and have our minds influenced as a result. They don't even need to fix the vote, they own us just like they do went the want to tell us to buy something or flock to a certain fashion. Plenty of sheep out there.

Not a UKipper by any means but Farage is right, we'd be fine if we left. Just scare mongering tactics that people always fall for. You watch, we'll be staying.

Choice is an illusion, so is democracy, its just a game. Those with the big cash, run things. I mean look at America, they get to "choose" a Bush, a Clinton or so buffoon elite with £10b. People power my arse.

Be careful, with a post like that you will probably find yourself being attacked on here for being part of the tin foil hat brigade. But what you say is true, the new world order or whatever you want to call it is in motion.
 
The UK's economy depends for approx. 45 % on exports to the EU. If the UK leave the EU and start negotiating that necessary trade deal with the EU, then the truth is that the UK will be obliged to make concessions on immigration to the UK of EU citizens. This is something which is conveniently not mentioned by the leave campaign.

The leave campaign line seems to be that the EU depends on those imports just as much as we do, however that 45% amounts to just 10% of EU imports and that is mainly into France and Germany. The idea that we have more bargaining power than the EU block is a complete fallacy.

The main problem I see with the migration from the EU argument is that if we want to continue a free trade deal with the EU, some sort of concession on our part to immigration will have to be part of the deal. The EU members have to be unanimous to allow the UK free trade... Of course France & Germany will want that and those others we trade with, but there's not a cat in hell's chance others will allow an agreement without us either signing up to EU migration laws or paying a hefty some for access to the market as Switzerland do. Neither options of which I don't see any UK politician being brave enough to accept any time soon. So basically free trade with the EU won't happen, costs will go up.

That in itself might not be the end of the world, we'd seek trade deals elsewhere and business will have to adjust, but people need to realise if we want full control of our borders, it IS going to cost.
 
When I look at the EU and Eurozone I see carnage, discord, cluelessness and disagreement when dealing with big issues.

If anyone doesn't see the same they are probably lying.

Know anywhere in the world that isn't like that? It's standard politics.
 
Love watching the Tories ripping each other apart over this. They said it will just be banter before this referendum and all will be back to normal afterwards.It's looking very nasty now .Can't see it as business as usual.
 
Still no idea which way to vote. Like many it would currently be an ill informed vote, as @Smores said, although I'm sure there will be people voting for worse/more stupid reasons than me. The whole thing is ridiculous and a mess. I might not even vote to be honest.
 
Still no idea which way to vote. Like many it would currently be an ill informed vote, as @Smores said, although I'm sure there will be people voting for worse/more stupid reasons than me. The whole thing is ridiculous and a mess. I might not even vote to be honest.
Doesn't your vote get automatically allocated in this case?
 
And the EU's migrant crisis goes full circle:



So not only are you now blaming the housing shortage on the EU, you're also blaming a lack of sustainable environment on the EU? What next can we blame the EU for, the crap weather?

Net immigration which approach a third of a million, much of which being destined for very similar locales, is naturally going to exacerbate both problems.


In summary Brexit have no idea what the reason is they want to leave. Why are you so pro-Brexit when you pretend you aren't , are you drunk?

Who the hell are you to tell people what they believe, and why they should do so? I am struggling to understand what draws you to this thread, as it is most certainly not a desire to converse with those of contrasting opinions.


Not a fan on Dawkins recently but his comments on the EU vote are bang on. Cameron is a selfish fool for pushing this to a referendum, the public can't possibly be equipped with enough detailed knowledge to make an informed decision.

Do you, Smores, feel beset by a scarcity of information? I shall feel more comfortable about this vote than the general elections in 2015 and 2010 (and most other election come to think of it).

And what, pray, are you suggesting, that the British people should be precluded from those parties determining their future relationship with a political union? Their contemporaries in other EU countries have had such referenda, and on numerous occasions in some instances.
 
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Doesn't your vote get automatically allocated in this case?

Does it? feck it then, I'd rather flip a coin that that.

In all seriousness, I might try and sift through the huge amount of shitty information on it, but then again I might not.
 
I want us out, mainly just because I don't want to be part of some big union or eventually a world union like it looks like the elites and big business wants, along with the talked about 1 world currency. Its clear that just like Scotland vote, they don't want us leaving the EU and hence why all the media is full, or heavily biased towards staying. All the same old this company or that political figure says we'll be doomed if we leave. We ain't leaving people and don't have a choice, they own all the media and have our minds influenced as a result. They don't even need to fix the vote, they own us just like they do went the want to tell us to buy something or flock to a certain fashion. Plenty of sheep out there.

Not a UKipper by any means but Farage is right, we'd be fine if we left. Just scare mongering tactics that people always fall for. You watch, we'll be staying.

Choice is an illusion, so is democracy, its just a game. Those with the big cash, run things. I mean look at America, they get to "choose" a Bush, a Clinton or so buffoon elite with £10b. People power my arse.

I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'

I mean, I know you Brexit lot love a good conspiracy but surely old Rupe is the biggest conspiracy target in the universe and he wants us to leave the EU. Piss on the old snake's chips and vote to stay.
 
Does it? feck it then, I'd rather flip a coin that that.

In all seriousness, I might try and sift through the huge amount of shitty information on it, but then again I might not.
I'm the same as you, I don't have a clue where to vote.
 
And the EU's migrant crisis goes full circle:





Net immigration which approach a third of a million, much of which being destined for very similar locales, is naturally going to exacerbate both problems.




Who the hell are you to tell people why they believe, and why they should do so? I am struggling to understand what draws you to this thread, as it is most certainly not a desire to converse with those of contrasting opinions.




But are you, Smores, struggling with this decision? Do you feel beset by a scarcity of information? I shall feel more comfortable about this vote than the general elections in 2015 and 2010.

And what, prey, are you suggesting, that the British people should be precluded from those parties determining their future relationship with a political union? Their contemporaries in other EU countries have had such referenda, and on numerous occasions in some instances.


I'm imagining you as some creepy old gay vampire now. So you know.
 
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/28/eu-referendum-brexiters-vote-leave

In the immortal words of Clint Eastwood, “You’ve gotta ask yourself one question: ‘Do I feel lucky’?” If the British feel lucky we will trust Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage. We will agree with them that the economists warning of recession, the trade unionists warning of an attack on workers’ rights, and the Nato allies warning of threats to the unity of the west are wrong. All wrong.

What am I saying – “wrong”? The Brexiters can never concede that a bearer of unwelcome arguments is debating in good faith. They are not just wrong. Wrong is too weak a word. They are lying. They are corrupt. No critic, however outwardly pure, is free of a sickly compulsion to deceive us.

After the Institute for Fiscal Studies said leaving the EU would damage the public finances so badly it would extend austerity, Vote Leave did not attempt to dispute its figures. I have always found the institute to be the most fastidious organisation in British public life. But Vote Leave knew better. It could see through the mask of impartiality to the rottenness below. The IFS was the “paid-up propaganda arm of the European Commission”, engaged in a conspiracy to mislead the British people for the most base of motives.

The conspiracy it has joined includes so many, it is amazing that it has been able to work in secret for so long, The governor of the Bank of England is in on it. Mark Carney warned about a collapse in the pound and a fall in investment. His forebodings appeared reasonable. Britain is knitted into the EU. Leaving would require an unravelling of relationships in every area of economic, constitutional, diplomatic and cultural life. Questions from whether we will need visas to visit the continent to whether foreign firms would continue to invest demand urgent answers. But Vote Leave offers only threats and conspiracy theories.

Jacob Rees-Mogg, a boorish know-nothing, whom the British in their class deference treat as an affable gent, revealed his true authoritarian self when he called for the governor to be fired. Iain Duncan Smith told the BBC that Carney used to work for Goldman Sachs, and the bank was the secret force behind the Remain campaign. “We see Goldman Sachs running all the way through this,” he confided, darkly. The way he is heading we will soon see Duncan Smith wandering the streets in his pyjamas shouting about the Bilderberg Group.

Perhaps not. Perhaps we will be lucky, and this apparently raging and incontinent fantasist will be revealed as a truth teller. Maybe, too, Dominic Cummings, the director of Vote Leave, is not wholly enclosed in the prison of rightwing ideology. He certainly gives every appearance of being the political equivalent of a cultist. To his fevered mind, criticism of his one, true faith can only come from polluted sources. Facing hard questioning from Andrew Tyrie, of the Commons Treasury committee, Cummings did not accept that anyone proposing a revolution in his country’s relations with the rest of the world must expect scrutiny. Instead, he snapped that Tyrie was biased because he had been a “very firm supporter of the euro and the ERM”.

Tyrie told him that he had supported
neither
. “But do not let it worry you, Dominic. It sounds as if you are as fast and loose with those facts as you are with all of the other facts that you have provided so far.”

Everyone who has raised doubts about disruption to trade and a flight of investment has been accused of ulterior motives. The International Monetary Fund had no right to “interfere in our democratic debate”. The CBI should stay silent because it has received grants from the EU. Obama is not urging us to stay because he is our ally but because he is some kind of Mau Mau with a “part-Kenyan president’s ancestral dislike of the British empire”.

When ITV said it would host a debate between Nigel Farage and David Cameron, Vote Leave, the official campaign no less, sounded like a Russian gangster threatening a dissident journalist when it warned the broadcaster: “There will be consequences for its future – the people in No 10 won’t be there for long.”

I never thought I would see a Britain where political hacks could threaten to punish broadcasters for organising a debate. “I want my country back,” I thought to myself. But as significantly, the attempt at censorship also revealed the hatreds on the right. Vote Leave hates Leave.EU and so wants Farage off air. If they lose, there will be civil war as Farage damns Cummings, Carswell damns Farage and everyone damns Johnson. But what if Leave wins? Presumably Johnson will be prime minister. Presumably a squabbling gang of Brexiters, who hate each other as much as they hate the EU, will have to form a government, and face a crisis that will go far beyond the economic.

They show no sign of being ready for it. When Scottish nationalists say that they would seize the chance to hold a second referendum, our patriots do not worry that their defence of Britain will lead to the break up of Britain. They are as silent on the consequences of rebuilding a border on the island of Ireland – even though no one with a knowledge of history thinks of messing with the Good Friday agreement.

“Progressives” seduced by denunciations of neo-liberal Brussels must hope their luck holds too. They must trust that a triumph for Johnson, Farage, Gove and Duncan Smith will not lead to an assault on the workers’ rights the EU guarantees, even though these gentlemen have spent their political lives denouncing workers’ rights as red tape that destroys competitiveness.

There are dozens of good reasons for leaving the EU. Before endorsing them you should ask, do you feel that the Institute for Fiscal Studies, Bank of England, IMF, OECD and the hundreds of economists we survey this week are all lying? Do you feel that all our allies who are begging us to stay wish to lead us to our ruin? Do you feel that Boris Johnson is fit to be prime minister or any kind of minister for that matter? Do you feel that Scotland won’t leave? Do you feel that Irish politics won’t darken? Do you feel that Putin won’t rejoice? Do you feel the Leave gang will find answers in June to the questions it cannot answer in May?

In short, you’ve gotta ask yourself one question: do I feel lucky?

Well, do ya, punk?
 
But are you, Smores, struggling with this decision? Do you feel beset by a scarcity of information? I shall feel more comfortable about this vote than the general elections in 2015 and 2010.

And what, prey, are you suggesting, that the British people should be precluded from those parties determining their future relationship with a political union? Their contemporaries in other EU countries have had such referenda, and on numerous occasions in some instances.

Personally very much so because no matter how much I've read I don't find myself coming any closer to being confident that my choice is fully informed. I'll vote remain because despite my concerns on immigration (which is more non-European immigration tbf), TTIP and a transfer of power to the EU, I just don't know the wider impact to the economy and every sector within.

I couldn't justify making such a decision at work and if a director pushed key strategic decisions to every employee (no matter their grade/experience) rather than performing due diligence then he'd be out on his arse like Cameron should be.

Those calling for a reelection are correct, the decision to leave the EU should have been part of their mandate but they wanted to get reelected. We're a representative democracy, we vote for those we trust to perform their duties.

If we leave then it follows we should have many more referendums. Trident? Wars? Privatising the NHS? To be dramatic, that way lies madness
 
It's funny, hoards of economists and academics come out saying that Brexit will cause severe economic pain yet the Brexiters dismiss it all as hysteria and scaremongering.

On the other hand, their arguments on unlimited immigration from Turkey and complete unaccountability are in their view legitimate fears.

On the basis of this, I agree with Dawkins. The British people are in no position to make a decision like this. Cameron made this promise to weasel his way back into 10DS. Now he is paying the price for his recklessness. The papers that supported him are now coming out against him as Brexit suits their agendas.

The most important reason to stay in the EU? It is far better than the alternative of having a conservative government that has no higher power stopping it from doing as it pleases.
 
Love watching the Tories ripping each other apart over this. They said it will just be banter before this referendum and all will be back to normal afterwards.It's looking very nasty now .Can't see it as business as usual.

It's the only upside to a depressing but predictable debate.
 
And the EU's migrant crisis goes full circle:



Who the hell are you to tell people what they believe, and why they should do so? I am struggling to understand what draws you to this thread, as it is most certainly not a desire to converse with those of contrasting opinions.


And who the hell are you to say who can and cannot post in this thread, save your endless meaningless waffle for the gullible people who want to live in your fantasy world.

As usual you get aggressive with those who don't agree with your views, same old
 
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