EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

[Paul the Wolf]

In this debate at least, the feeling is mutual. And you were wishing us some pleasant tidings earlier after all:



The inference being, that you hope things go badly for us and British people suffer.




I would say that both Rams' and Paul's contributions have tended toward mockery, be it in plain sight or through ridiculous extremes of language. You can raise known events and it matters little.




Yes, to some extent, although Cameron as Prime Minister bears the greatest responsibility.

What extremes of language, the only mockery is from your side insinuating that everyone who disagrees with you is foolish. No-one hopes that the Uk suffers because they make the wrong decision but it is the Brexiters like yourself who are promoting that the Uk leave the EU into a completely unknown world. Thus it is people like me who are hoping that the Uk does not harm itself. You are the ones wishing harm on the UK and if the Uk makes this decision, be prepared for the consequences that you will be responsible for.

As I stated numerous times I have no vested interest in this - you have - I have no bias - you have. For the Uk's sake I really hope you lose - but you can't lose can you because if the UK stays you can always say that if the UK had left it would have been better, but no-one can prove anything unless the UK leaves.

 

[Fener1907]

I've seen some arguments about how Britain would be better off out when you consider Turkey's impending membership. Turkey isn't joining the EU, so UKIP and its ilk can make all of the half-assed propaganda videos they want to fight that ghost, but it's one thing little Englanders can rest their heads about if they've actually got it into them that it's a realistic possibility.

 

[Red Defence]

I take it you've told Turkey that they won't be joining. Do tell us what they said in reply.

 

[Rams]

I take it you've told Turkey that they won't be joining. Do tell us what they said in reply.

There are absolutely no plans at this moment for Turkey to join the EU! Get your facts right!!!
The deal between the EU and Turkey, which you are confusing yourself with, is for Turkish nationals free travel rights within the EU without Visa restrictions. However, talks for the deal have reached an impasse because of the refusal of the Turks to agree to demands made by the EU on items such as human rights and freedom of speech. There, that's the truth!

 

[Red Defence]

There are absolutely no plans at this moment for Turkey to join the EU! Get your facts right!!!
The deal between the EU and Turkey, which you are confusing yourself with, is for Turkish nationals free travel rights within the EU without Visa restrictions. However, talks for the deal have reached an impasse because of the refusal of the Turks to agree to demands made by the EU on items such as human rights and freedom of speech. There, that's the truth!

Oi, why so snappy! No need to be. I haven't given you any facts , have I!

We all know that about Turkey and most of us know they want to join the EU...they just want to join on their terms. However the main stumbling block with all that is that they have yet to learn that all countries have to do as the EU overlords tell them to. They will learn that in time.

 

[Rams]

Oi, why so snappy! No need to be. I haven't given you any facts , have I!

We all know that about Turkey and most of us know they want to join the EU...they just want to join on their terms. However the main stumbling block with all that is that they have yet to learn that all countries have to do as the EU overlords tell them to. They will learn that in time.

The fact that Turkey wants to join, and have done for a very very long time, does not mean that they will join any time soon. As things stand there is absolutely no chance of Turkey joining the EU. Only when Turkey becomes a true democratic country with human rights, civil liberties and freedom of press in line with the rest of the EU will it stand any remote chance of joining the EU, period!

 

[GloryHunter07]

I cant see Greece or Cyprus ever voting for Turkey to join the EU (although i dont know if it goes to a vote.

Anyway, lets not derail the thread.

 

[Striker10]

Just saying that they have said that moving out of the EU makes us more vulnerable to crimes and ....terrorism. Do you think those who went to OT yesterday and other football grounds have been swayed?....feck the EU. Not saying direct connection but a good day for pro Eu folk no?

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Osborne strikes again:

£200bn less trade every year if we leave the EU.

And remember, after June 23rd we Britons won't want to travel so ...

Mr Osborne was joined by former adversaries Ed Balls and Sir Vince Cable at Stansted Airport, where he said that 450 jobs and almost £1 billion in investment announced by Ryanair would be "at risk if we left the EU".

Only when Turkey becomes a true democratic country with human rights, civil liberties and freedom of press in line with the rest of the EU will it stand any remote chance of joining the EU, period!

I don't suppose that the irony of such a requirement is lost on Ankara. But then Erdogan knows that concerns about human rights and civil liberties can be boiled down to cheap platitudes, hence the billions of Euros in bribes heading Turkey's way.

This should probably offer some reassurance to concerned Remainers though, as Brussels will have few scruples when reaching a deal on travel with an independent Britain.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Just saying that they have said that moving out of the EU makes us more vulnerable to crimes and ....terrorism. Do you think those who went to OT yesterday and other football grounds have been swayed?....feck the EU. Not saying direct connection but a good day for pro Eu folk no?

fecking hell.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Think the Leave have lost it big time

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

As I stated numerous times I have no vested interest in this - you have - I have no bias - you have.

I am gradually reaching the conclusion that you are a WUM.

but you can't lose can you because if the UK stays you can always say that if the UK had left it would have been better, but no-one can prove anything unless the UK leaves.

I am not so petty as yourself perhaps, as this issue is far too serious for small-minded 'i dolt you so's'. Whilst defeat will be a very dispiriting outcome and one which could irrevocably alter Britain, there will still be TTIP to fight against. But if Europe continues on its current path, with the UK being an enthusiastic supporter of something so contemptible, i just might have to leave Europe for Canada.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I am gradually reaching the conclusion that you are a WUM.




I am not so petty as yourself perhaps, as this issue is far too serious for small-minded 'i dolt you so's'. Whilst defeat will be a very dispiriting outcome and one which could irrevocably alter Britain, there will still be TTIP to fight against. But if Europe continues on its current path, with the UK being an enthusiastic supporter of something so contemptible, i just might have to leave Europe for Canada or something.

Absolute typical answer from you, you can never address the points head on because you have no answers and as usual insult every person who disagrees with you.

Basically you have no argument whatsoever - I suspect you have no idea what you're rambling on about.

There's little I disagree with what Osborne said.

Regarding travel, if restrictions come into place for travelling to and from the UK, ie no more free movement to and from the EU, I would suspect that the number who people who will travel will diminish, a reasonable assumption I would have thought

 

[Stanley Road]

Osbornes full of shit, what ever he says just think the opposite

 

[BringNaniBack]

I cant see Greece or Cyprus ever voting for Turkey to join the EU (although i dont know if it goes to a vote.

Anyway, lets not derail the thread.

Na no vote. We don't get to vote on any decisions the EU make. That's one of the main reasons we must leave.

 

[BringNaniBack]

Came across this on twitter



Could be a load of rubbish or made up by anyone but to me it does seem like we are heading for a United States of Europe.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Na no vote. We don't get to vote on any decisions the EU make. That's one of the main reasons we must leave.

Decisions are by Consensus or QMV - should really ask your UKIP mates to attend so they can vote occasionally

 

[The Purley King]

Came across this on twitter



Could be a load of rubbish or made up by anyone but to me it does seem like we are heading for a United States of Europe.

With a European army too.
All run by people we didn't vote for and can't remove.
Sounds sensible.

 

[BringNaniBack]

Decisions are by Consensus or QMV - should really ask your UKIP mates to attend so they can vote occasionally

I'm talking about the Citizens of the EU, who have no say on anything, not even who is in power. Ps go and check how many times Britain has voted against a new rule or tried to block a new law and how many times it has won.........

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I'm talking about the Citizens of the EU, who have no say on anything, not even who is in power. Ps go and check how many times Britain has voted against a new rule or tried to block a new law and how many times it has won.........

Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

 

[The Purley King]

Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

That wasn't the question
How many times did we vote 'no' and then it was overturned as a result?
(I don't know by the way, but interested to hear!)

 

[BringNaniBack]

Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

That isn't what I asked you to check.

How many times was the UK successful in blocking those laws they voted 'No' on?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

That wasn't the question
How many times did we vote 'no' and then it was overturned as a result?
(I don't know by the way, but interested to hear!)

I have no idea but since the Uk have voted "No" on only 56 occasions in the last 17 years and voted yes 2466 times it is a very small amount.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

That isn't what I asked you to check.

How many times was the UK successful in blocking those laws they voted 'No' on?

I don't know but it is such a small figure. The point is, it is done by vote and not by some dictator.
It's like saying how many times have Labour voted against a Tory proposal or vice versa and been successful in the UK parliament

 

[The Purley King]

I have no idea but since the Uk have voted "No" on only 56 occasions in the last 17 years and voted yes 2466 times it is a very small amount.

So what you are saying is that because we disagree with things on such a small number of occasions that it doesn't matter if we are listened to or not?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So what you are saying is that because we disagree with things on such a small number of occasions that it doesn't matter if we are listened to or not?

No what I'm saying is that you can't win every vote but no-one does in the UK parliament either, that's my point.
It's not unelected people passing these laws.

Very few of the Uk's or any other states laws are passed by the EU.
There is too much misinformation and what concerns me is that the man / woman in the street is voting on something that is vitally important without knowing what is the truth and what is not and this is the biggest decision they'll probably make in their lives outside of their personal life.

 

[Smores]

Think Boris must regret his decision now, he's looking more and more unelectable by the day.

 

[The Purley King]

No what I'm saying is that you can't win every vote but no-one does in the UK parliament either, that's my point.
It's not unelected people passing these laws.

Very few of the Uk's or any other states laws are passed by the EU.
There is too much misinformation and what concerns me is that the man / woman in the street is voting on something that is vitally important without knowing what is the truth and what is not and this is the biggest decision they'll probably make in their lives outside of their personal life.

Even one law which affects me, that my govt (which we all got a vote on and who represents us) doesn't want, is one too many. I don't know how important these 56 laws are, but its the principle I don't like. I got a say in who governs me, why should I be happy that someone who very well may have their own interests at heart and who I didn't get to elect is making decisions which might affect me?

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

And though a small number in comparison to the overall total, the areas of contention could actually be very important and far reaching. It is also worth remembering, that for eleven of those years the UK had a pro-EU Labour government. And with the majority of the EU now being members of the Eurozone and on a course of harmonisation and centralised authority, a more Eurosceptic country like Britain is increasingly going to be on the wrong end of such votes.



UK lack of influence in the EU costs taxpayer billions

New research by Vote Leave has found that the UK’s declining influence in the EU is costing UK taxpayers billions of pounds. The UK has not managed to block a single proposal placed in front of the EU Council from becoming law, handing the UK a £2.4bn billion bill each year.

• The UK has opposed 72 measures in the EU Council which have gone on to become law.
• Since the start of 2014, the UK has voted against 18 measures in the Council of Ministers. This means that 25% of Britain’s failures have taken place in the last two years alone.
• In July 2012, the Council agreed to increase the EU budget for 2013 by €9,786 million, costing the UK taxpayer over €950 million. Later that year, an amendment increased the general EU budget of 2012 by €6,000 million. This saw the UK face an extra €588 million bill.
• In the last Parliamentary term (2009-2014), 1,936 motions were put before the European Parliament. 576 of these motions were against British interests and were opposed by the majority of British MEPs. However, 485 of these motions still passed. This is a failure rate of 84 per cent.

Since David Cameron became Prime Minister in 2010, the UK has voted against 40 measures and lost all of them. This is 56% of all 72 measures that the UK has voted against since 1996. It is more losses than all the other Prime Ministers combined.

- Vote Leave

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Even one law which affects me, that my govt (which we all got a vote on and who represents us) doesn't want, is one too many. I don't know how important these 56 laws are, but its the principle I don't like. I got a say in who governs me, why should I be happy that someone who very well may have their own interests at heart and who I didn't get to elect is making decisions which might affect me?

You also vote for the MEP's who are supposed to be representing your interests at the EU parliament. If you lose it's the same as I pointed out in the previous post.

I don't know which party you vote for in the Uk parliament and don't want to but if for example you voted Labour and the Tories propose a law and the Tories have a big majority, the chances of Labour being able to stop that law are almost non-existent so you could say in this situation that the Tories have passed a law without the person you voted for making that decision or being able to stop it.

In any case imo most politicians have their own interests at heart

 

[Paul the Wolf]

And though a small number in comparison to the overall total, the areas of contention could actually be very important and far reaching. It is also worth remembering, that for eleven of those years the UK had a pro-EU Labour government. And with the majority of the EU now being members of the Eurozone and on a course of harmonisation and centralised authority, a more Eurosceptic country like Britain is increasingly going to be on the wrong end of such votes.



UK lack of influence in the EU costs taxpayer billions

New research by Vote Leave has found that the UK’s declining influence in the EU is costing UK taxpayers billions of pounds. The UK has not managed to block a single proposal placed in front of the EU Council from becoming law, handing the UK a £2.4bn billion bill each year.

• The UK has opposed 72 measures in the EU Council which have gone on to become law.
• Since the start of 2014, the UK has voted against 18 measures in the Council of Ministers. This means that 25% of Britain’s failures have taken place in the last two years alone.
• In July 2012, the Council agreed to increase the EU budget for 2013 by €9,786 million, costing the UK taxpayer over €950 million. Later that year, an amendment increased the general EU budget of 2012 by €6,000 million. This saw the UK face an extra €588 million bill.
• In the last Parliamentary term (2009-2014), 1,936 motions were put before the European Parliament. 576 of these motions were against British interests and were opposed by the majority of British MEPs. However, 485 of these motions still passed. This is a failure rate of 84 per cent.

Since David Cameron became Prime Minister in 2010, the UK has voted against 40 measures and lost all of them. This is 56% of all 72 measures that the UK has voted against since 1996. It is more losses than all the other Prime Ministers combined.

- Vote Leave

Selective figures, please tell the truth

 

[NinjaFletch]

Even one law which affects me, that my govt (which we all got a vote on and who represents us) doesn't want, is one too many. I don't know how important these 56 laws are, but its the principle I don't like. I got a say in who governs me, why should I be happy that someone who very well may have their own interests at heart and who I didn't get to elect is making decisions which might affect me?

You get a say in who represents you in the EU too. Its not the EU's fault that people in the UK either A) can't be bothered to vote in the first place on it and B) vote for a bunch of scroungers who don't turn up but collect their salary anyway.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Selective figures, please tell the truth

Or you could point out which details are indisputably false? Unfounded accusations of lies or deceit do no credit to anyone.

You get a say in who represents you in the EU too. Its not the EU's fault that people in the UK either A) can't be bothered to vote in the first place on it and B) vote for a bunch of scroungers who don't turn up but collect their salary anyway.

But if British voters are by their nature more Eurosceptic, the influence of their MEPs and ministers shall be limited in any event.

 

[BringNaniBack]

You get a say in who represents you in the EU too. Its not the EU's fault that people in the UK either A) can't be bothered to vote in the first place on it and B) vote for a bunch of scroungers who don't turn up but collect their salary anyway.

Selective figures, please tell the truth

The point is it doesn't matter what that UK wants or who represents it in the EU, the EU make the decisions. The UK has opposed 72 measures in the EU Council which have gone on to become law. Not a single law Britain has voted against has been successfully blocked. If we weren't in the EU we wouldn't be part of these laws or have to try and block them and fail.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Or you could point out which details are indisputably false? Unfounded accusations of lies or deceit do no credit to anyone.




But if British voters are by their nature more Eurosceptic, the influence of their MEPs and ministers shall be limited in any event.

Limited? Maybe. More limited than UKIP barely turning up and not doing anything when they do? No chance.

 

[The Purley King]

You also vote for the MEP's who are supposed to be representing your interests at the EU parliament. If you lose it's the same as I pointed out in the previous post.

I don't know which party you vote for in the Uk parliament and don't want to but if for example you voted Labour and the Tories propose a law and the Tories have a big majority, the chances of Labour being able to stop that law are almost non-existent so you could say in this situation that the Tories have passed a law without the person you voted for making that decision or being able to stop it.

In any case imo most politicians have their own interests at heart

I may get to vote for the MEPs, but they clearly have feck all influence over what actually happens - as you can see from Nick's figures. At least our parliament decides on what becomes law in the UK - unless you count those laws that got passed in Brussels despite us not wanting them

 

[BringNaniBack]

True

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Or you could point out which details are indisputably false? Unfounded accusations of lies or deceit do no credit to anyone.
But if British voters are by their nature more Eurosceptic, the influence of their MEPs and ministers shall be limited in any event.

What I mean is:
What has been the effect of the 2466 laws that the Uk agreed to.
What is the nature of these motions that have been passed against UK interests and whose interests are they in favour of.
Are you able to give figures and the effects that one party's opposition to the other's in the Uk parliament in the past 20 years and if they were successful at blocking the proposed motion or law.
We lose a vote - we demand democracy

The point is it doesn't matter what that UK wants or who represents it in the EU, the EU make the decisions. The UK has opposed 72 measures in the EU Council which have gone on to become law. Not a single law Britain has voted against has been successfully blocked. If we weren't in the EU we wouldn't be part of these laws or have to try and block them and fail.

Do you know what the laws are?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I may get to vote for the MEPs, but they clearly have feck all influence over what actually happens - as you can see from Nick's figures. At least our parliament decides on what becomes law in the UK - unless you count those laws that got passed in Brussels despite us not wanting them

A bit like the Labour party

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Limited? Maybe. More limited than UKIP barely turning up and not doing anything when they do? No chance.

A Eurosceptic British voter would have little reason to feel engaged with the political process. Justice, finance, taxation, so many areas of policy would be moving further and further away from the views of that individual. But then the EU's democratic deficiencies are well enough known.

It is of little import for many of those who have voted in this thread, as they are loyal to the aspirations of Brussels and presumably happy to go with the flow. Yet governments in the UK are cyclical and vulnerable to pressure, whereas the European Union is on a generally centralising course no matter what.