EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

[Kaos]

Interesting how the EU campaign has brought out the real Boris Johnson.

He'd fooled much of London and the country with his lovable goofball act but his true colours have shown, firstly with the frankly racist Obama comment and now with this nonsense. I actually think he's doing more damage to the campaign than any of his leave colleagues, Farage included. And I say this as a fence-sitter.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Why would I be biased, I 'm British who lives in France and will never live in the UK again - absolutely zero influence on my personal life so I can speak from a neutral point of view.
Obviously the EU has faults as does the UK parliament as did the Uk parliament before the EEC , how far do you want to go back in history to find a perfect institution to govern the people, it's never existed.
Imo the UK will make an enormous mistake but we've been through all these reasons so many times.

Whereas you do have personal interest where you said you may hope to buy a property in one of your earlier posts and with the value of property falling if the UK leave, it will thus be in your interest. What if the values continue to fall.

If you believe that the EU as it is presently constituted is both a worthwhile endeavour and good for Britain, then that is bias in this debate. I'm afraid that i don't see the relevance of your historical comparisons, as the cooperation i would strive for would not entail a bloated political institution in the first place. It is not my desire to see Brussels as the capital of a future European state.

If you seriously think there will be no ramifications from changing from a free trade area to deals based on duties which will apply when trading outside a free trade area then I think someone has their head in the sand

But in any case it's not me who is going to suffer or decide what will happen - just a logical prediction that the utopia which Brexiters expect does not exist

You may be brimming with predictions, but they are no better guides to the future than my own. In some of your posts you have admitted that this is unknown territory, yet others speak of things to come with a certainty quite unsupported by fact.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Has the BBC article misled by omission?

The historical comparison stands up well, in so far as the resultant endgame is an authoritarian Europe without national division. Contrary to @Rams' increasingly tiresome accusation of lies, a continental country is most certainly a road that some would like to take us down. Look at all of the trappings of statehood which already exist, or read the original EU Constitution.

 

[devilish]

The Eu is far from perfect but it's a liberal haven where human rights are key. So what does farage, trump and Co are offering as alternative? Most of them have nationalist sentiments. Farage seem to have issues with east European people, Galloway isn't a big fan of 'israeli' people, trump seem uncomfortable with Muslims and gays. Let pen share trump feelings towards the Muslims.

And yet the EU is pro hitler project in here

 

[GloryHunter07]

Has the BBC article misled by omission?

The historical comparison stands up well, in so far as the resultant endgame is an authoritarian Europe without national division. Contrary to @Rams' increasingly tiresome accusation of lies, a continental country is most certainly a road that some would like to take us down. Look at all of the trappings of statehood which already exist, or read the original EU Constitution.

Are you defending Boris' comment?

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Are you defending Boris' comment?

These quotes?

Speaking to the Sunday Telegraph, Mr Johnson said European history had seen repeated attempts to rediscover the "golden age of peace and prosperity under the Romans".

"Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, and it ends tragically. The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods," he said.

"But fundamentally what is lacking is the eternal problem, which is that there is no underlying loyalty to the idea of Europe.

"There is no single authority that anybody respects or understands. That is causing this massive democratic void."

Why not?

In the context of an undemocratic, single European entity, that is prepared to do harm to the rights and well-being of Europeans, the comparison is not so very outlandish.

 

[Ubik]

What is it with former London mayors and Hitler.

 

[Kag]

Interesting how the EU campaign has brought out the real Boris Johnson.

He'd fooled much of London and the country with his lovable goofball act but his true colours have shown, firstly with the frankly racist Obama comment and now with this nonsense. I actually think he's doing more damage to the campaign than any of his leave colleagues, Farage included. And I say this as a fence-sitter.

Johnson is dangerous. I dread to think what the government would be like if he were in charge.

 

[2 man midfield]

Is it just me who hates the term 'Brexit'? I cringe every time i hear it.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

If you believe that the EU as it is presently constituted is both a worthwhile endeavour and good for Britain, then that is bias in this debate. I'm afraid that i don't see the relevance of your historical comparisons, as the cooperation i would strive for would not entail a bloated political institution in the first place. It is not my desire to see Brussels as the capital of a future European state.




You may be brimming with predictions, but they are no better guides to the future than my own. In some of your posts you have admitted that this is unknown territory, yet others speak of things to come with a certainty quite unsupported by fact.

You mean I'm biased because I disagree with you, this makes no sense at all.

All of Brexit is unknown territory, every single thing is a guess whereas we have seen what has happened with property values, the value of the pound, etc etc since the possibility that the Uk might leave indeed became a reality.

If the Uk leaves I hope my predictions are wrong, hopefully we'll never know but in case the Uk does leave, wait for the "I told you so"

 

[Stanley Road]

Its the unknown that is exciting

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Its the unknown that is exciting

You're living in Holland so it won't affect you much either

 

[Stanley Road]

Depends if exit would cause knock on effect, don't know.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Depends if exit would cause knock on effect, don't know.

I was going to ask you a question and forgot before:
Do you feel that the laws and system in Holland is down to the Dutch government or do you think that the EU has a major effect on these things?

For me, the French system and laws are almost entirely down to the French government and France happens to be part of the EU.
According to the Brexiters it seems like the Uk is almost like 1984 , wasn't like that when I left 9 years ago.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

All of Brexit is unknown territory, every single thing is a guess whereas we have seen what has happened with property values, the value of the pound, etc etc since the possibility that the Uk might leave indeed became a reality.

If the Uk leaves I hope my predictions are wrong, hopefully we'll never know but in case the Uk does leave, wait for the "I told you so"[/QUOTE]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Duly noted and if it goes well or breaks even, you made an idiot of yourself throughout this thread with all the dire warnings, fair enough?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

]

Duly noted and if it goes well or breaks even, you made an idiot of yourself throughout this thread with all the dire warnings, fair enough?

So if it goes the way I predict, the Brexiters are idiots?

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

So if it goes the way I predict, the Brexiters are idiots?

Clearly, and you think that anyway, I just want you to put some skin in the game.

 

[BringNaniBack]

Disgraceful comments by Boris, but what do you expect? The truth is that nobody in Europe wants a European superstate. The EU is not creating a European super state. Yet more lies by the leave campaign.

I agree nobody in Europe IE the Citizens wants a European superstate but the EU itself and its creators do.

Creating a European superstate is exactly what the EU is doing. Unelected Politicians that we cant remove. Open boarders across all nations. One Currency (luckily we aren't part of that yet). Doesn't sound anything like a European superstate does it? and this is just the beginning.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

You mean I'm biased because I disagree with you, this makes no sense at all.

All of Brexit is unknown territory, every single thing is a guess whereas we have seen what has happened with property values, the value of the pound, etc etc since the possibility that the Uk might leave indeed became a reality.

I think i was fairly clear in my earlier post: the choice is between the EU we have at present and its journey of centralisation, and a severing that has the potential to bring sorely needed change.

Property prices will be determined by supply and demand, whether we leave the EU or not. Currencies may well fluctuate as a result of Brexit, although i'd envisage a shock to the Euro as well (particularly if there are any acts of petty revenge).

You're living in Holland so it won't affect you much either

There are also political consequences for the internal workings of the European Union itself. The Netherlands shared some common ground with the UK, and our departure would be one less opponent for the Franco-Germans when QMV is at hand.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

The best that remain have got to say for the future is that the UK will continue a slow decline and avoid a potential disaster in leaving. Its not very encouraging.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

And I'm the one with baseless predictions

So now we have the country or countries who nobody knows who they will be who will bend over backwards to give the UK better deals than they currently have.

Only the Uk laws will be decided by the EU but not the other states.
We also have a Euro superstate that will be governed by... who knows; that no country in the EU wants, but apparently will happen anyway because.... who knows why.

Then we have immigration ('shhh') no-one mention immigration, foreigners or people who don't speak English, we musn't talk about this.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

So now we have the country or countries who nobody knows who they will be who will bend over backwards to give the UK better deals than they currently have.

Only the UK laws will be decided by the EU but not the other states.
We also have a Euro superstate that will be governed by... who knows; that no country in the EU wants, but apparently will happen anyway because.... who knows why.

Then we have immigration ('shhh') no-one mention immigration, foreigners or people who don't speak English, we musn't talk about this.

Better that we aren't at the front of the queue for TTIP in any event. Even if we did find the concept to be agreeable, the secrecy surrounding it can surely not be so. Provided that calm heads hold say, i am confident that an amicable deal will be reached with Europe too.

What does the EU have that might be associated with an aspiring nation state: a president, ministries. two parliaments, a high court, laws, taxation, a central bank, its own currency, a diplomatic service...oh and a European Army if Merkel gets her way.

We could talk about the EU's shameful treaty with Turkey if you'd like, or the deaths created by European policies toward Libya. There it was with a continental problem, and the European Union fell at first hurdle every time.

When tens of millions of citizens were struggling with the effects of austerity, the Eurocrats wanted an increase in budgetary contributions; millions of Greeks were in direst straits, the EU behaved like loan shark. These deeds are what the Union has become, the fine ideals are but an occasional accessory.

 

[Rams]

I agree nobody in Europe IE the Citizens wants a European superstate but the EU itself and its creators do.

Creating a European superstate is exactly what the EU is doing. Unelected Politicians that we cant remove. Open boarders across all nations. One Currency (luckily we aren't part of that yet). Doesn't sound anything like a European superstate does it? and this is just the beginning.

That's right. And if we don't leave the EU right now we'll all be speaking German in 10 years. Zieg Heil!

 

[Rams]

Has the BBC article misled by omission?

The historical comparison stands up well, in so far as the resultant endgame is an authoritarian Europe without national division. Contrary to @Rams' increasingly tiresome accusation of lies, a continental country is most certainly a road that some would like to take us down. Look at all of the trappings of statehood which already exist, or read the original EU Constitution.

Indeed. Brvitain iz being ze led down ze road to Deutsch world domination via ze backdoor. Anymore trouble von you tommies and you vill be tortured vith ze piano wire. Jawoll!!!!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Better that we aren't at the front of the queue for TTIP in any event. Even if we did find the concept to be agreeable, the secrecy surrounding it can surely not be so. Provided that calm heads hold say, i am confident that an amicable deal will be reached with Europe too.

What does the EU have that might be associated with an aspiring nation state: a president, ministries. two parliaments, a high court, laws, taxation, a central bank, its own currency, a diplomatic service...oh and a European Army if Merkel gets her way.

We could talk about the EU's shameful treaty with Turkey if you'd like, or the deaths created by European policies toward Libya. There it was with a continental problem, and the European Union fell at first hurdle every time.

When tens of millions of citizens were struggling with the effects of austerity, the Eurocrats wanted an increase in budgetary contributions; millions of Greeks were in direst straits, the EU behaved like loan shark. These deeds are what the Union has become, the fine ideals are but an occasional accessory.

We can keep going round in circles.
What you listed is exactly what the UK has other than a PM instead of a president
An amicable trade deal would be made with Europe but no reason why it should be to the UK's advantage.
The Greeks brought it on themselves, when the citizens don't pay the taxes that they are supposed to pay the government, the government /economy will fail. If the Uk leave the EU and half it's citizens decide not to pay their taxes or only a small proportion of their taxes what would happen to the Uk economy- no EU to bail them out.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I agree nobody in Europe IE the Citizens wants a European superstate but the EU itself and its creators do.

Creating a European superstate is exactly what the EU is doing. Unelected Politicians that we cant remove. Open boarders across all nations. One Currency (luckily we aren't part of that yet). Doesn't sound anything like a European superstate does it? and this is just the beginning.

Who are these people that are going to turn Europe into this superstate, which nationality are they. By your own admission no European state wants to lose its sovereignty so who is going to do it.

 

[NinjaFletch]

That's right. And if we don't leave the EU right now we'll all be speaking German in 10 years. Zieg Heil!

Ich für meinen Teil begrüßen unsere neuen Insekt Oberherren

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

It is a sad thing that some Remainders are so ready to laugh off the deaths and hardship caused by the people/institution they support.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

It is a sad thing that some Remainders are so ready to laugh off the deaths and hardship caused by the people/institution they support.

Who is laughing?

 

[Cheesy]

Johnson's remarks are laughable. Is he determined to make his campaign the one that's doing the most fearmongering?

 

[JPRouve]

Why is it that many EU folk now want a uk style referendum?

They do?

 

[Rams]

It is a sad thing that some Remainders are so ready to laugh off the deaths and hardship caused by the people/institution they support.

Deaths & hardship... I have ceased to take you seriously. If your views represent the majority in the UK then I would say the EU will be much better off without the UK. Auf wiedersehen!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It is a sad thing that some Remainders are so ready to laugh off the deaths and hardship caused by the people/institution they support.

Who is laughing, just as well the UK have never caused any deaths or hardship to anyone

 

[Drifter]

It is a sad thing that some Remainders are so ready to laugh off the deaths and hardship caused by the people/institution they support.

You mean IDS and the Tory party.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't know about the other countries but France's problems have nothing to do with the EU or the Euro but everything to do with our useless politicians.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I don't know about the other countries but France's problems have nothing to do with the EU or the Euro but everything to do with our useless politicians.

I was waiting for you to say that

 

[JPRouve]

I was waiting for you to say that

Well, it's true there is nothing in the EU that prevent France from being in a better state, the only problem is that our politicians are selfish, narcissistic and corrupt.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well, it's true there is nothing in the EU that prevent France from being in a better state, the only problem is that our politicians are selfish, narcissistic and corrupt.

I agree but it pretty much applies to most politicians in all countries

 

[JPRouve]

I agree but it pretty much applies to most politicians in all countries

Unfortunately that's true but there is still a lot of people willing to point the finger somewhere else.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Deaths & hardship... I have ceased to take you seriously. If your views represent the majority in the UK then I would say the EU will be much better off without the UK. Auf wiedersehen!

In this debate at least, the feeling is mutual. And you were wishing us some pleasant tidings earlier after all:

In a way I hope the UK leaves the EU if only to show what lies and pogwash people have been fed. I pity those who have fallen for it.

The inference being, that you hope things go badly for us and British people suffer.

Who is laughing?

I would say that both Rams' and Paul's contributions have tended toward mockery, be it in plain sight or through ridiculous extremes of language. You can raise known events and it matters little.

You mean IDS and the Tory party.

Yes, to some extent, although Cameron as Prime Minister bears the greatest responsibility.