@Red Defence It's hardly just Cameron and his mouthpieces. You've got almost the entirety of Labour backing it, the Lib Dems, SNP and Greens all in favour of remain. I get that it's frustrating to see much of the mass media back one side and have an extreme level of influence, but it's also incorrect to label the Brexit camp as some brave, noble group representing the common people against the evils of Cameron and the media mouthpieces. Especially when most of those mouthpieces will probably be backing Boris Johnson in a couple of years when he's PM.
EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.
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Oh god, the word brexit is bad enough, can we please not introduce bremain into the lexicon as well.
That's possibly the most stupid response I've ever heard.
You haven't got all of any party in favour of Remain. You've got the party leaders saying we as a party will back remain but the politicians are able to vote as they wish. Up to now 130 Conservative politicians, 8 DUP and 7 Labour politicians have declared themselves as "out" voters. Then there are the ones who have yet to declare....if they dare. We already know that Corbyn is Eurosceptic too.
He's not wrong is he.
Apologies, just made it easier for me that's all.
I'll humour you if you insist.
Your argument is meaningless (firstly, if anything polling has shown that 'very educated people', who-ever they are, overwhelmingly favour remaining in Europe, but thats another point). Its the classic case of the fallacious argument from authority: because X says Y and X is Z they must be correct. It's like me coming in and saying 'Stephen Hawking is a smart man; Steven Hawking has called Brexit a 'disaster': Brexit will be a disaster' or the reverse 'Katie Hopkins is a moron; Katie Hopkins wants us to leave the EU: leaving the EU is a bad idea'.
Sure, listen to people. Listen to what they have to say, but putting blind faith in anyone just because of what they happen to be rather than the merits of what they are saying is stupid. If we held it to be the case that anything anyone who we consider smart is 'correct' we'd be walking around thinking the Earth was the centre of the universe still.
There's stupid and smart people on both sides of the debate. Basing your decision on that, rather than the merits of what they are actually saying, is daft.
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No you're not understanding the point I was making. I'm saying that there are eminently clever and knowledgeable people favouring Brexit, not just a few random loons among the general public, therefore you'd be foolish to dismiss everything Brexiters say as if they haven't got a clue. Some may be daft but others aren't and their decision is based on sound reasoning. Haven't a clue why you think I've based any decision on that because that's not at all what I said is it. Haven't said to put blind faith in anyone either. You really should read what I've said not what assume I've said.
Imagine a world with Trump as US President and Boris as UK Prime Minister.
No worries
I think it's true to say there's reasonable and rational people backing Leave and that it isn't an insane idea of itself, but I think it's also a fairly decent argument at this point to say that they're either overly optimistic around what'll happen should we leave, or perhaps primarily motivated by concerns other than economic performance. Arron Banks for instance, one of the biggest donors to UKIP, said recently that the projected loss of £4.3k per person in GDP was "a price worth paying" (I'm not saying the figure is true there, by the way, just that he was willing to accept it as worthwhile). For some, the questions of sovereignty and border control will take precedence over monetary loss. Which is fine if you're a multimillionaire gimp, but not so much for a single parent struggling to get rent together every month. For others, issues surrounding immigration do hit them in the pocket, so they're making a rational decision based on that. But in general, the economic argument doesn't really ever seem to fall on the Leave side.
You could also turn your original proposition on its head and ask why the current PM and Chancellor, previously seen as heir apparent, would tie themselves to an institution that: diminishes sovereignty that they'd surely want back as head of government, prevents them from bringing the migration figures down to the levels they'd promised before coming to power, and stops us pursuing all these bilateral trade deals that would make as even better off upon leaving? They'd presumably have some pretty good reasoning for doing so. If there was a vote in the Commons, using your previously posted figures, Remain would win by a landslide, which also kind of puts a hole the argument surrounding a lack of democracy.
Well if you didn't mean what you wrote I can't be helped for not reading your mind.
I'll paraphrase the section I complained about:
'Brexit is not such a risk because politicians, some business men and very educated people with lots of knowledge say it is not'
That is the exact logic you've used, and I really don't see how you've disassociated yourself from it in your reply here either, if anything you seem to have mis-understood my objection.
And no, I agree with you that not all people that believe in leaving the EU are 'random loons', nor is everyone that wants to stay smart. I'm old and mature enough to know that I am not infallible, and that everything I deign to think is, has been, and always will be correct. For me the positives of European membership significantly outweigh the negatives and for me the Leave campaign are struggling to make any sort of case whatsoever for their being tangible benefits from leaving, but I can also understand, too, how someone that is not me can, from seeing the same things that I have seen, draw different conclusions. That is just human nature. I disagree with their interpretation, of course, and think they are probably mistaken, but I certainly don't think they're inherently stupid or a 'loon'. On the contrary, you seem to have indicated before that you think everyone that doe not conform to your view has been brainwashed, so I suspect if anyone is being disparaging of the other side its certainly not me.
Someone should remind him that he was born in the colony that kicked the British out first.
I like to see @Red Defence reply to this post.No worries
I think it's true to say there's reasonable and rational people backing Leave and that it isn't an insane idea of itself, but I think it's also a fairly decent argument at this point to say that they're either overly optimistic around what'll happen should we leave, or perhaps primarily motivated by concerns other than economic performance. Arron Banks for instance, one of the biggest donors to UKIP, said recently that the projected loss of £4.3k per person in GDP was "a price worth paying" (I'm not saying the figure is true there, by the way, just that he was willing to accept it as worthwhile). For some, the questions of sovereignty and border control will take precedence over monetary loss. Which is fine if you're a multimillionaire gimp, but not so much for a single parent struggling to get rent together every month. For others, issues surrounding immigration do hit them in the pocket, so they're making a rational decision based on that. But in general, the economic argument doesn't really ever seem to fall on the Leave side.
You could also turn your original proposition on its head and ask why the current PM and Chancellor, previously seen as heir apparent, would tie themselves to an institution that: diminishes sovereignty that they'd surely want back as head of government, prevents them from bringing the migration figures down to the levels they'd promised before coming to power, and stops us pursuing all these bilateral trade deals that would make as even better off upon leaving? They'd presumably have some pretty good reasoning for doing so. If there was a vote in the Commons, using your previously posted figures, Remain would win by a landslide, which also kind of puts a hole the argument surrounding a lack of democracy.
Birds of the same feather...
Yeesh lads, stop. That is so embarrassing. I would never, ever want to meet the people who that kind of thinking appeals to.
Can't understand the outrage over Obama's comments. What's he done wrong exactly? He gave a view in his countries national interests. He said his country wouldn't prioritise a trade deal with the UK. Isn't he allowed to say how his country would or wouldn't act?
More importantly though, you basically don't hear anything from the leave campaigners that is truly factual. Any problem the remain campaign raise is just fear inducing. But they never can provide a factual case of an alternative. You know you're clutching at straws when you are telling the president of another country how that country will behave.
More importantly though, you basically don't hear anything from the leave campaigners that is truly factual. Any problem the remain campaign raise is just fear inducing. But they never can provide a factual case of an alternative. You know you're clutching at straws when you are telling the president of another country how that country will behave.
Nothing at all, he has every right to give his opinion. All he has done is upset a few of the "out" campaigners, supporters and morons like Farage. They don't like it because he is popular and intelligent and feel his voice might be able to sway some opinions, and obviously they don't agree with him.
The comments Farage has come out with are embarrassing (as usual) as are his supporters and it is no different than the shite Trump came out with when starting the rumours that Obama wasn't American.
As I said, I don't live in the UK and never will do again so I'm not panicking at all, just sad.
There are intelligent and stupid people on both sides and there are people on both sides who want whichever outcome suits their own personal agenda/political career etc.
This argument makes no sense. There are many intelligent people who believe in God or a God - for me how can an intelligent person possibly pray to a non-existent thing - but that's another debate.
The reasons given for leaving are predominantly made-up scaremongering points with little substance and have seen no evidence of any utopia that leaving is supposed to bring.
If the UK do take this crazy decision to leave, getting back in again when they realise their error is not going to be very easy at all.
Boris's buffoon 'act' is looking is looking less and less like an act. When Obama was asked about his comment on moving Churchill's bust he said 'because I'm America's first black president and I wanted one of Martin Luther King'. No further comment offered or needed. And then the Kenyan embarrassment. And then the 'queue instead of 'line' jibe, as if Obama's speech writers, many of whom will have lived, worked or studied in Britain, wouldn't be capable of tailoring their language to suit. If I were a Leave campaigner I'd be wishing Boris had taken even more time deciding which side he was on.
I went to the same school as Stephen Hawking - ergo I am as intelligent as Stephen Hawking
Not heard that before. Good god it's awful.
You mean you haven't heard people be called 'Bremaniacs' yet either?
No, only Brexiteers tbh. Hate this portmanteau trend.
Farage was getting rather aggressive on Any Questions last night. The Leave campaign presentation and tone wise is rather unattractive all round if you are undecided. It is to me anyway.
Remainers are really loving this Obama circus aren't they. I would be too if I was in favour of remain but do any of you really believe what he is saying is for the benefit of the UK? Obama couldn't care less what happens to the UK, he and his puppet masters have their own agenda, they do not want any break up of power meaning they may have less control. They do not want a Brexit as it would put a huge spanner in the works when it comes to their TTIP plans for the EU, which is all being secretly negotiated behind closed doors without any consultation or information being given to us. We know a little about it and every aspect of it sounds like it is to benefit America, giving them more control and access to the EU. Where as the implications it would have for Britain do not look so great.
I was listening to LBC earlier on this subject and was glad to see 90% of the people phoning in saw straight through everything Obama said yesterday. Though I do think the majority of this country will take what he has said very seriously and it will definitely benefit the remain campaign.
I was listening to LBC earlier on this subject and was glad to see 90% of the people phoning in saw straight through everything Obama said yesterday. Though I do think the majority of this country will take what he has said very seriously and it will definitely benefit the remain campaign.
Brexit - don't like Europe , don't like the USA , don't need them when we've got all those other countries to trade with like ...um, oh damn!
The Economist on question time the other night, Slightly tongue and cheek from him I think but it was good to watch:
Clinton has basically echoed Obama's comments. How will this go down?
It means Leavers have to openly shill for Donald Trump, or stop using the "Obama won't be in office in a year" line.
Obama and Clinton work for the same people and have the same agenda so of course she will echo his comments. Doesn't mean we will actually be "at the back of the queue" if it happens.
You Leavers are going to have to come up with better arguments than "they're lying!" when figures of authority continue to piss on your collective bonfires.
Figures of authority who want to benefit themselves rather than Britain. You probably believe anything these people say that's the problem. I've already mentioned TTIP and them wanting to keep the EU together for the purpose of easier control, I haven't just simply said "they're lying!". Do you not think TTIP may be one of the reasons he wants to keep the EU together?
Obama's presidency has been terrible and Hillary Clinton hasn't exactly got a great track record, I don't value anything they say.
Obama's whole point was that TTIP and TPP are more important to the US than any deal with a solitary UK, so I'm not sure how you think it helps your argument.
To be fair, they've probably already got some chemtrails lined up to rig the vote. You cannot win, BringNaniBack.
You don't have to, but I very much doubt they particularly care what a subset of the UK population think of them. I suspect there's a bit of self-interest at work here from them, and they'll probably relent a little bit on what they're saying, but thus far I haven't seen anyone give a substantial, detailed arguments as to why they're definitely lying or wrong. I think they'll be interested in coming up with a trade deal with us, but as they've said...we probably won't be a priority.
I said no...just because I dont want us to lose our identity. More to do with my heart than my head. But I think we will end up staying so no worries I suppose.
Jeez, yeah he was definitely far worse than his predecessor Bush, wasn't he?
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They don't work for the same people. Same people work for them is a bit more accurate.
So let me understand
Obama, Hilary Clinton, Cameron, Cobryn pro EU
Isis, Trump (the British and US one) and Farage anti EU
Am I right?
Obama, Hilary Clinton, Cameron, Cobryn pro EU
Isis, Trump (the British and US one) and Farage anti EU
Am I right?
Let's put it this way... Britain leave the EU and they have to do a trade deal with one rather large market consisting of many countries or a deal with a much smaller market consisting of one country. Which deal are Britain going to prioritise?
Let's be honest folks, for Britain leaving the EU is a very very very bad idea on so many fronts.
Let's be honest folks, for Britain leaving the EU is a very very very bad idea on so many fronts.
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