EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?

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Kasper said:
Not really, most just don't want to join the Anti-EU agenda because its discourse is dominated by right wing scare mongering such as 'Immigrants are overrunning us' or 'We're just funding those unworthy eastern European countries'. Most of the left across Europe agrees that the EU has big problems such as undemocratic structures, massive lobbyists influence or shady trade agreements like TTIP. Doesn't mean they have to jump on the identity/sovereignity losing, control immigration etc. train.
I'm not british so I can't vote anyway but I know I wouldn't support a campaign that is lead by bellends like Farage, Galloway or Boris Johnson. And let's face it: Leaving the EU won't make Britain more liberal, progressive or socially fair - like others said, it'll just give the Tories free reign to do what they want.
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Smores said:
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter. There are elements that would see me vote leave but ultimately they're issues to fight against rather than a vision to strive towards.

I can only see Brexit benefiting the rights discourse where as a vote to remain should put these things to bed.
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The EU has persecuted millions of its poorest citizens to preserve a the vested interests of a few, any vote to remain carries the taint of endorsing those decisions. That the supposedly idealistic members of the left would choose to further the ambitions of Brussels over their counterparts elsewhere in Europe, is plain hypocrisy.

Much of your characterisation of the Leave campaign's adherents is little more than the slanderous nonsense all too common among the EU's proponents. Rather insulting really, if one considers the organisation's lamentable handling of recent migrant crises, Let us recall some of its most 'progressive' acts shall we?

- Playing into the hands of traffickers and endangering the lives of thousands by encouraging them to take to the Mediterranean.
- Bribing the Turkish government to make up for the original balls-up.
- The ensuing degradation of Schengen, which is essentially dumping the problem upon Greece of all nations.
- The responsibility European countries have for the Libya we see before us today.

There is no competent leadership being displayed here, none. Indeed it would be apt to describe what passes for European cooperation as a disgrace. But hey-ho, let's press ahead with the farce.


Jippy said:
Interesting take on the matter from Anatole Kaletsky. @Nick 0208 Ldn

...because Cameron has no wish to antagonize his party’s implacable Euroskeptics until it is absolutely necessary; but as the referendum approaches, this political imbalance will abruptly reverse.
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Well that prediction didn't make it past yesterday afternoon. :)


Jippy said:
As a result, the “Out” campaign has been left effectively leaderless and has already split into two rival factions—one driven mainly by anti-immigrant and protectionist sentiment, the other determined to concentrate on neoliberal economics and free trade. Even in the unlikely event that the charismatic Johnson manages to unite the squabbling political eccentrics and widely divergent ideologies backing Brexit, the London Mayor’s buffoonish image and his many contradictory comments in the past about Europe will only add to the air of chaos and frivolity surrounding the Brexit campaign.
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People are far more accommodating of eccentric behaviour than they are lies and deception, the latter being qualities which Cameron is very well acquainted with. Hell, we've even got him holding up the EU for its role in tackling Ebola; Cuba was probably of more practical use.

In a survey published late last year, posted by @bishblaize IIRC, Boris was the most popular British political figure. Cameron and Osborne, however, are contemplating cuts to disability benefits in the near future (such unrelated issues could come into play).
 
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If anyone thinks that the EU will simply concede everything Britain want out of Lulz then they are deluded at best. The EU will make to make Britain an example to anyone thinking of leaving the Union. Concessions will also be given to Scotland and Wales if they decide to jump ship and remain in the EU, turning their back on England. Its not going to be nice for no one (expats, locals etc)

I am amazed how short sighted British politicians can be. Two world wars and the immigration crisis had made sure that very few countries like Germany (I travel alot especially in Southern Europe). They are literally begging for a new leader in the EU who would bring the necessary reforms. Instead of capitalizing on it and become a leader in the EU Britain just insult everybody and want to leave. Which I believe to be a shame
 
devilish said:
If anyone thinks that the EU will simply concede everything Britain want out of Lulz then they are deluded at best. The EU will make to make Britain an example to anyone thinking of leaving the Union. Concessions will also be given to Scotland and Wales if they decide to jump ship and remain in the EU, turning their back on England. Its not going to be nice for no one (expats, locals etc)

I am amazed how short sighted British politicians can be. Two world wars and the immigration crisis had made sure that very few countries like Germany (I travel alot especially in Southern Europe). They are literally begging for a new leader in the EU who would bring the necessary reforms. Instead of capitalizing on it and become a leader in the EU Britain just insult everybody and want to leave. Which I believe to be a shame
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How could Britain take control when Germany control the Eurozone?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
How could Britain take control when Germany control the Eurozone?
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The euro zone is crumbling and many countries want out. Also the euro zone is not the eu either. Other issues such as migration has nothing to do with the euro. I think that Britain can have a big say in europe if it refrain from thinking that everyone is out to get her. It's not the case. Countries are ganging around Germany because there is no other valid option
 
devilish said:
The euro zone is crumbling and many countries want out. Also the euro zone is not the eu either. Other issues such as migration has nothing to do with the euro. I think that Britain can have a big say in europe if it refrain from thinking everyone is out to get her. It's not the case. Countries are ganging around Germany because there is no other valid option
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Germany controls the EU because it controls the Eurozone. I don't think this is disputed. The people from weak Southern European economies like Spain and Greece can complain all they want but their leaders have little sway over the country propping them up financially.

One of the reasons the UK didn't join the Euro was because we didn't want to be under German control.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
They are comfortably the largest single economy. The UK and France could gang up to push them but that would require agreement on whatever issue is at hand and that would be no sure thing.
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That's why we have politicians, if it was easy we wouldn't need them.
 
JPRouve said:
That's why we have politicians, if it was easy we wouldn't need them.
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The point I am making is the reason why Germany runs the EU. Politicians from all the different member states arguing over issue x,y and z for eternity is one of the reasons why a lot of the British public want out, so we have control of our own destiny. Germany have the greatest power in those debates as the largest economy in the EU, one that has bailed out a number of lesser states, so there is no true democracy.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
The point I am making is the reason why Germany runs the EU. Politicians from all the different member states arguing over issue x,y and z for eternity is one of the reasons why a lot of the British public want out, so we have control of our own destiny. Germany have the greatest power in those debates as the largest economy in the EU, one that has bailed out a number of lesser states, so there is no true democracy.
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Politics is all about alliances, the problem is that we are all selfish, we are all trying to pull in our own direction, there is no democratic problem, we are just led by idiots, instead of trying to win together they try to win individually and at this game Germany will win, England and France in particular are the one who make Germany strong because we are both inept.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Germany controls the EU because it controls the Eurozone. I don't think this is disputed. The people from weak Southern European economies like Spain and Greece can complain all they want but their leaders have little sway over the country propping them up financially.

One of the reasons the UK didn't join the Euro was because we didn't want to be under German control.
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If Germany controlled Europe than the migrants would be kept in Southern Europe which isn't the case. It does exercise plenty of power though, mainly because its the only strong economy which doesn't call others lazy, thieves etc. However don't think for a second that everybody is happy with Germany. France sees Britain as the counterbalance to Germany, the Italians never liked them, Malta is a traditional ally to Britain, the Eastern European countries aren't happy about how Germany is leading regarding immigration and Greece had been humiliated enough by Germany not to like them. If Britain is aiming to radical changes like for example deporting EU criminals to their respective nation and ban them for X amount of years from stepping outside of it than I assure you it going to find plenty of support

If Britain want then it can become great again (ie great nearly at par to the empire days great, Great Britain is already great as it is) but it must believe in itself that it can lead Europe rather than just be the awkward child who stand in the corner and think that everyone hates him. No one hates the Brits, actually most want to copy them (in a good way) and would love to have an alternative to Germany, whom lets face it, very few people have a reason to like.
 
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If your decision to stay is based on the idea that we can be influential in further reforms then it's naive.

A vote to remain really should come with acceptance of the EU project and our relative lack of influence.
 
devilish said:
If Germany controlled Europe than the migrants would be kept in Southern Europe which isn't the case. It does exercise plenty of power though, mainly because its the only strong economy which doesn't call others lazy, thieves etc. However don't think for a second that everybody is happy with Germany. France sees Britain as the counterbalance to Germany, the Italians never liked them, Malta is a traditional ally to Britain, the Eastern European countries aren't happy about how Germany is leading regarding immigration and Greece had been humiliated enough by Germany not to like them. If Britain is aiming to radical changes like for example deporting EU criminals to their respective nation and ban them for X amount of years from stepping outside of it than I assure you it going to find plenty of support.
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France doesn't see UK as an ally to counterbalance Germany, in fact France and UK are opposed on about every political subject related to the EU (Euro, ever closer union...). France is way closer to Germany, the main disagreement is with the handling of the crisis with the balance of power shifting to the east but even then French political leaders are happy playing the good cop/bad cop duet, Germany having to cave in most of the time. France and UK are great military allies but that has nothing to do with the EU.

Latin countries may sometimes hate Germany but have little connection with UK or reason to believe it could be a political ally.

Eastern Europe share liberal economic values but UK fighting against the competition of their cheaper workforce won't get them closer.

The last kind of reforms you suggest will make the progressive northen European countries raise their eyebrows because of human rights.

If UK wants more power in the EU it will have to rethink completely its foreign policies.
devilish said:
If Britain want then it can become great again (ie great nearly at par to the empire days great, Great Britain is already great as it is) but it must believe in itself that it can lead Europe rather than just be the awkward child who stand in the corner and think that everyone hates him. No one hates the Brits, actually most want to copy them (in a good way) and would love to have an alternative to Germany, whom lets face it, very few people have a reason to like.
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If all the UK does is opposing to the way the EU goes, wanting rebates, special deals and whatnot it won't get much sympathy from other EU states or be very inspirational.
Leaving is probably the most sensible choice, there are other deals than membership if all you want is a large free trade zone.
 
Latest effort from GO



Genuinely think they're trying to lull remain into false sense of security.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
ameron and Osborne, however, are contemplating cuts to disability benefits in the near future (such unrelated issues could come into play).
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While the likes of IDS, Farage and Gove would never advocate such horrible policies...

It does look like the EU debate is going to have a fairly defined left-right split, with moderate (metropolitan?) Tories like Cameron and Osborne being on the 'in' side, and the majority of the 'outers' being relics from IDS' days, or in areas significantly under threat from UKIP. Thankfully the far left of the Labour Party seem to be staying out of it, Corbyn and McDonnell have been hilariously muzzled by their positions of power.
 
The BBC is to host an EU Referendum debate at Wembley Arena on the 21st of June.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/bbc/12170520/BBC-to-stage-referendum-debate-at-Wembley-Arena.html


ThierryHenry said:
While the likes of IDS, Farage and Gove would never advocate such horrible policies....
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What they might or might not do is rather beside the point, the face of the proposals will be Cameron and Osborne. If as we approach the referendum the Government is becoming increasingly unpopular, is campaign will suffer in kind. Some voters coulo even use it as a means of protest.
 
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ThierryHenry said:
While the likes of IDS, Farage and Gove would never advocate such horrible policies...

It does look like the EU debate is going to have a fairly defined left-right split, with moderate (metropolitan?) Tories like Cameron and Osborne being on the 'in' side, and the majority of the 'outers' being relics from IDS' days, or in areas significantly under threat from UKIP. Thankfully the far left of the Labour Party seem to be staying out of it, Corbyn and McDonnell have been hilariously muzzled by their positions of power.
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Majority in
Majority of conservatives out
Cameron untenable
Boris as next leader as the majority of conservative voters wanted out
 
BBRBB said:
France doesn't see UK as an ally to counterbalance Germany, in fact France and UK are opposed on about every political subject related to the EU (Euro, ever closer union...). France is way closer to Germany, the main disagreement is with the handling of the crisis with the balance of power shifting to the east but even then French political leaders are happy playing the good cop/bad cop duet, Germany having to cave in most of the time. France and UK are great military allies but that has nothing to do with the EU.

Latin countries may sometimes hate Germany but have little connection with UK or reason to believe it could be a political ally.

Eastern Europe share liberal economic values but UK fighting against the competition of their cheaper workforce won't get them closer.

The last kind of reforms you suggest will make the progressive northen European countries raise their eyebrows because of human rights.

If UK wants more power in the EU it will have to rethink completely its foreign policies.

If all the UK does is opposing to the way the EU goes, wanting rebates, special deals and whatnot it won't get much sympathy from other EU states or be very inspirational.
Leaving is probably the most sensible choice, there are other deals than membership if all you want is a large free trade zone.
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You're overestimating Germany and underestimating Britain tbh. Germany in Europe is the equivalent of Britain in Africa, India and co. While people in those nations may mistrust the British for their colonial past, in Europe they do not trust the Germans for the same (or even worse) reasons. I can speak of experience. My grand parents nearly starved or died in the WW2 and my parents lived the difficult times afterwards. I don't hate the Germans however Id rather leave my salary in the hands of a drunkard/drug addict Scouser on benefits then my country in safe German hands. Is it xenophobic? Maybe it is but I assure you most of Europeans are like that. Never forget that Today's adults are the sons or nephews of those who suffered/died/starved nearly to dead by Nazi Germany and their expansionist plans. Surely Germany had changed alot since then but things do look a bit suspicious when we notice that in time of austerity Germany's economy keeps getting stronger while most of Europe's economy is going to shit. Not to forget that Germany's dominated Brussels keeps asking more and more power.

Britain represent for many European a new way. Its economically stable without actually being dependent to Germany or its austerity project. The British model had been also successful in another country with great ties to Britain ie Malta. They both rely heavily on the financial sector, they both have a decent standard of living and they both have a low unemployment rate.

I think that Britain suffers alot in wording things and coming with plans that benefits all. It is also frightened to death in taking command of the situation, which is kind of strange considering that its a country of pioneers and not a country of cowards. That at least what I've learnt in history classes

Let give example

a- Id rather have Germans then Romanians as neighbours can turn into let expel all criminals and ban them from leaving their country for X years
b- All eastern/south European countries are corrupt can turn into there is a need of an active watch dog that make sure that corruption is fought at all levels of society
c- Southern Europe must act as our buffer zone for immigrants can turn into we need to create safe zones in war torn countries were immigrants can live safely without the need of them leaving

I assure you there would be plenty of nations sucking the British PM's crock after that
 
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devilish,

Your reasons to vote stay seem to be.

1. The EU will stick it to the UK if we leave.

2. Lots of people are scared of the Germans.

3. We need you, don't leave us with the Germans.


Am I getting this right?
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
devilish,

Your reasons to vote stay seem to be.

1. The EU will stick it to the UK if we leave.

2. Lots of people are scared of the Germans.

3. We need you, don't leave us with the Germans.


Am I getting this right?
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Once again you're putting a good argument in the worse possible way. What I am saying is that

a- If Britain leaves the EU then expect consequences. Most EU countries will be pissed off by it and Germany would want to make sure that no one dares following Britain's lead. Expect the EU to take their pound of flesh for every trade deal. New countries will enter the EU which means that more hostile countries and the EU will use its power and influence to isolate you further. Also I believe that after this circus in gone there will be little of the Union left. Scotland and possibly Wales will be given a deal that they cannot refuse.

b- I believe that this would be a shame because can be a leader in this EU instead. Believe it or not most of the EU would rather trust you then Germany for obvious and also historical reasons. Just give them a reason to do so and both Britain and Europe can be truly great again.

Ultimately we both need one another. Europe need the Euroscepticism, verve, experience and reputation Britain brings. Britain need a strong pro business and democratic Europe which is free from conflict and war and which allows it to tap to this huge market through unrestricted trade and free movement of money. Its true that most Europe feel that they can't fully trust Germany. However do you fully trust to give unrestricted power to the Tories or Cobryn?
 
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devilish said:
Ultimately we both need one another. Europe need the Euroscepticism, verve, experience and reputation Britain brings. Britain need a strong pro business and democratic Europe which is free from conflict and war and which allows it to tap to this huge market through unrestricted trade and free movement of money. Its true that most Europe feel that they can't fully trust Germany. However do you fully trust to give unrestricted power to the Tories or Cobryn?
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No, but if the public aren't happy with them they can and will be voted out.

That's not the case with EU. We don't know who the people are who make the laws and decisions and we have absolutely no chance of voting them out. We don't even know who voted them in.
 
devilish said:
Once again you're putting a good argument in the worse possible way. What I am saying is that

a- If Britain leaves the EU then expect consequences. Most EU countries will be pissed off by it and Germany would want to make sure that no one dares following Britain's lead. Expect the EU to take their pound of flesh for every trade deal. New countries will enter the EU which means that more hostile countries and the EU will use its power and influence to isolate you further. Also I believe that after this circus in gone there will be little of the Union left. Scotland and possibly Wales will be given a deal that they cannot refuse.

b- I believe that this would be a shame because can be a leader in this EU instead. Believe it or not most of the EU would rather trust you then Germany for obvious and also historical reasons. Just give them a reason to do so and both Britain and Europe can be truly great again.

Ultimately we both need one another. Europe need the Euroscepticism, verve, experience and reputation Britain brings. Britain need a strong pro business and democratic Europe which is free from conflict and war and which allows it to tap to this huge market through unrestricted trade and free movement of money. Its true that most Europe feel that they can't fully trust Germany. However do you fully trust to give unrestricted power to the Tories or Cobryn?
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Agree with a chunk of that. You can imagine France ensuring it is a bitter divorce on the one hand, but then again the UK is a bigger market for the EU than China. There'll be a lot of pressure from big multinationals to sign trade agreements with us quick.

Not sure about Wales and Scotland being given 'offers they can't refuse'. At best they'll get parity with Switzerland and Norway. Imagine the hoohah if they get preferential terms.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
The EU has persecuted millions of its poorest citizens to preserve a the vested interests of a few, a vote to remain is an endorsement of those decisions. That the supposedly idealistic members of the left would choose to further the ambitions of Brussels over their counterparts elsewhere in Europe, is plain hypocrisy.

Much of your characterisation of the Leave campaign's adherents is little more than the slanderous nonsense all too common among the EU's proponents. Rather insulting really, if one considers the organisation's lamentable handling of recent migrant crises, Let us recall some of its most 'progressive' acts shall we?

- Playing into the hands of traffickers and endangering the lives of thousands by encouraging them to take to the Mediterranean.
- Bribing the Turkish government to make up for the original balls-up.
- The ensuing degradation of Schengen, which is essentially dumping the problem upon Greece of all nations.
- The responsibility European countries have for the Libya we see before us today.

There is no competent leadership being displayed here, none. Indeed it would be apt to describe what passes for European cooperation as a disgrace. But hey-ho, let's press ahead with the farce.




Well that prediction didn't make it past yesterday afternoon. :)




People are far more accommodating of eccentric behaviour than they are lies and deception, the latter being qualities which Cameron is very well acquainted with. Hell, we've even got him holding up the EU for its role in tackling Ebola; Cuba was probably of more practical use.

In a survey published late last year, posted by @bishblaize IIRC, Boris was the most popular British political figure. Cameron and Osborne, however, are contemplating cuts to disability benefits in the near future (such unrelated issues could come into play).
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In hindsight, I'm in agreement that Kaletsky is talking shite. He's normally quite sensible, albeit a bit of a perma-bull (Sun Times/Tel columnist and GaveKal co-founder), but yep, sorry, flawed piece he wrote.
 
devilish said:
Britain represent for many European a new way. Its economically stable without actually being dependent to Germany or its austerity project. The British model had been also successful in another country with great ties to Britain ie Malta. They both rely heavily on the financial sector, they both have a decent standard of living and they both have a low unemployment rate.
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There can only be so many countries based on a strong financial sector, and I don't think that UK is especially interested in serving as a model.

The biggest inspiration UK could give is other countries threatening to leave to try and blackmail better deals for themselves, and there's nothing good about that.
 
Jippy said:
Agree with a chunk of that. You can imagine France ensuring it is a bitter divorce on the one hand, but then again the UK is a bigger market for the EU than China. There'll be a lot of pressure from big multinationals to sign trade agreements with us quick.

Not sure about Wales and Scotland being given 'offers they can't refuse'. At best they'll get parity with Switzerland and Norway. Imagine the hoohah if they get preferential terms.
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Where did you get that from?
 
Come out, and do something similar with the commonwealth so it be UK, Canada & Australia as the top dogs, the EU was fine when it was a lot smaller, but now they let in too many counties join.

I do expect the UK to stay in as people don't like change/ scared of the unknown
 
Jippy said:
Agree with a chunk of that. You can imagine France ensuring it is a bitter divorce on the one hand, but then again the UK is a bigger market for the EU than China. There'll be a lot of pressure from big multinationals to sign trade agreements with us quick.

Not sure about Wales and Scotland being given 'offers they can't refuse'. At best they'll get parity with Switzerland and Norway. Imagine the hoohah if they get preferential terms.
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Which is pretty important. I imagine some of the major EU countries will be a bit pissed if we leave, but they're not going to act petty and let that stand in the way of any potentially beneficial trade.
 
It would be a game of chicken. They wouldn't want to give us a deal on as good a terms as we had in the EU and would know that trading with the EU is essential to our economy functioning, we'd be wanting to get as good a deal as before whilst knowing they'd be under pressure at their end.

Anyone pretending there isn't a large risk for us in that staring contest is in denial.
 
Ubik said:
It would be a game of chicken. They wouldn't want to give us a deal on as good a terms as we had in the EU and would know that trading with the EU is essential to our economy functioning, we'd be wanting to get as good a deal as before whilst knowing they'd be under pressure at their end.

Anyone pretending there isn't a large risk for us in that staring contest is in denial.
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A game of chicken you say.
http://www.swindon24.co.uk/2016/02/...pport-after-roosters-home-destroyed-in-storm/
 
Elements within the European Union might want to play hardball, but such wishes are not always practical. The Eurozone is in a precarious enough position as it is, and dragging out negotiations will only compound these problems. Ultimately, it shall be easier to reach terms with the UK than attempt to solve the structural ills of the EU.

There'll be plenty of bombast and prosy politicians certainly, however the end result is likely to be a good deal less harsh.



Priti Patel will be promoting a good attack line later today, namely that of women's car insurance. Some of you might recall the ECJ ruling of a few years ago, which instead of bringing prosperity to the people, increased their bills.
 
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