Not really, most just don't want to join the Anti-EU agenda because its discourse is dominated by right wing scare mongering such as 'Immigrants are overrunning us' or 'We're just funding those unworthy eastern European countries'. Most of the left across Europe agrees that the EU has big problems such as undemocratic structures, massive lobbyists influence or shady trade agreements like TTIP. Doesn't mean they have to jump on the identity/sovereignity losing, control immigration etc. train.
I'm not british so I can't vote anyway but I know I wouldn't support a campaign that is lead by bellends like Farage, Galloway or Boris Johnson. And let's face it: Leaving the EU won't make Britain more liberal, progressive or socially fair - like others said, it'll just give the Tories free reign to do what they want.
Very little of that seems likely to be true.Interesting take on the matter from Anatole Kaletsky. @Nick 0208 Ldn
To understand the dynamics that strongly favor an “In” vote, start with the politics. Until this month’s deal, Britain’s leaders could not seriously make the case against Brexit. After all, Prime Minister David Cameron and his government had to pretend that they would contemplate a breakup if the EU rejected their demands.
Political imbalance
Under these circumstances, it was impossible for either Labour Party politicians or business leaders to advocate an EU deal that Cameron himself was not yet ready to promote. The “Out” lobby therefore enjoyed a virtual monopoly of public attention. This situation may briefly persist, even though the EU deal has now been agreed, because Cameron has no wish to antagonize his party’s implacable Euroskeptics until it is absolutely necessary; but as the referendum approaches, this political imbalance will abruptly reverse.
One reason is Cameron’s decision to release his ministers from party discipline during the referendum campaign. Initially viewed as a sign of weakness, Cameron’s move has turned out to be a masterstroke. Having been offered the freedom to “vote your conscience” on the EU deal, most significant Conservative politicians—with the notable exceptions of Boris Johnson and Michael Gove—have come around to supporting Cameron.
As a result, the “Out” campaign has been left effectively leaderless and has already split into two rival factions—one driven mainly by anti-immigrant and protectionist sentiment, the other determined to concentrate on neoliberal economics and free trade. Even in the unlikely event that the charismatic Johnson manages to unite the squabbling political eccentrics and widely divergent ideologies backing Brexit, the London Mayor’s buffoonish image and his many contradictory comments in the past about Europe will only add to the air of chaos and frivolity surrounding the Brexit campaign.
What does that mean, that because Boris and Gove have joined the "Outers" that they are now leaderless?Having been offered the freedom to “vote your conscience” on the EU deal, most significant Conservative politicians—with the notable exceptions of Boris Johnson and Michael Gove—have come around to supporting Cameron.
As a result, the “Out” campaign has been left effectively leaderless...
Not sure tbh. Am hoping the toxicity of Gove will sink anything he attaches himself to.Very little of that seems likely to be true.
Does the "Out" lobby have more political imbalance than the "In"? Possibly. But I don't see why that is a problem. We already know which way racist or xenophobic people are going to vote, so Boris doesn't need to unite the whole damned clan. What he needs to do, is make a case that the "Out" campaign, is not a "Out" of world politics; it's not about removing the UK from Europe or the world. What he needs to do is make the case that the "Out" vote gives Britain a much more interesting position in the world, and makes us much more of a world citizen than if we stay in.
On the flip side, you are going to have the conservatives who are going to have to defend the deal they got, whilst at the same time attacking the EU for not letting them go further, but somehow show why they want to remain in Europe at all. You've got Labour (themselves in disarray) and the Lib Dems (a shadow of their former selves), who may or may not go all-out to remain in.
This bit, I don't understand at all.
What does that mean, that because Boris and Gove have joined the "Outers" that they are now leaderless?
On the other hand we haven't seen much of Corbyn yet. That thought is stopping me betting on Remain at the moment.
Good. Self-serving tosser.Cameron is bashing Boris
On the contrary, Boris is very popular outside of London as well as inside. He'll influence a lot of people.Johnson won't go down well outside London. He's likely to lose more votes for Out than he gains.
On the other hand we haven't seen much of Corbyn yet. That thought is stopping me betting on Remain at the moment.
On the contrary, Boris is very popular outside of London as well as inside. He'll influence a lot of people.
If it goes against him and at the moment it looks likely it would be a huge blow to his ambition to becoming Tory leader.Does Boris become PM sharpish, if Leave wins? Can't see Cameron fancying carrying on and Osborne would be hugely damaged.
Yeah, think he's finished if the result goes as expected.If it goes against him and at the moment it looks likely it would be a huge blow to his ambition to becoming Tory leader.
If it goes against him and at the moment it looks likely it would be a huge blow to his ambition to becoming Tory leader.
His father feels it could potentially end his career. I can't see how he would look credible as a PM candidate if the UK convincingly votes to stay.Tory membership tends to be outers I think, so I don't think it'll harm Boris's leadership desires if we vote to remain, particularly given Osborne's pro-EU.
That said, his idea of voting leave to get a better deal to stay in after all is weak, and if Cameron carries on sticking the knife in as he did today, Boris could end up looking much diminished.
On the contrary, Boris is very popular outside of London as well as inside. He'll influence a lot of people.
His father feels it could potentially end his career. I can't see how he would look credible as a PM candidate if the UK convincingly votes to stay.
This is the opposing argument that I read yesterday:His father feels it could potentially end his career. I can't see how he would look credible as a PM candidate if the UK convincingly votes to stay.
There's bound to be a falling out and the different out campaigns calling each other names at some point.The egos in the leave group. Boris, Farage and Galloway. Oh my.
It's not weak. If we do vote to leave there will be two years of negotiation after that. Negotiation which could give Cameron what he asked for in the first place. There's no other way he'll get it. And no other way he'll manage to get a better deal for the British public.Tory membership tends to be outers I think, so I don't think it'll harm Boris's leadership desires if we vote to remain, particularly given Osborne's pro-EU.
That said, his idea of voting leave to get a better deal to stay in after all is weak, and if Cameron carries on sticking the knife in as he did today, Boris could end up looking much diminished.
Arsene and the rest will be on the boat the next morning.In event of an Exit, what happens to Europeans living in the UK?
It's a weak argument that it would stand any chance of working. There's two years until we're automatically removed from the EU, during which time we're supposed to be negotiating the free-trade deals that the Outers says will be as good or better than before (and which usually take longer than two years to sort out). What do you think we're going to get on immigration for example, when even people already outside the EU but inside the economic area have to go along with free movement? It's basically the "having your cake and eating it" idea, thinking we can get all the good bits about the EU without any of the bad, just by virtue of threatening to leave in bad faith.It's not weak. If we do vote to leave there will be two years of negotiation after that. Negotiation which could give Cameron what he asked for in the first place. There's no other way he'll get it. And no other way he'll manage to get a better deal for the British public.
Essentially the MPs narrow it down to two candidates, which then go to the membership. Barring anything unforeseen, it'll be Boris vs Osborne.Makes sense, though I thought that Tory MPs had the majority of the say in who the next party leader would be? Can't remember how it works. Would be worrying to see the Tories follow the recent UK/US trend of members voting for the extreme wing of their party...
So by throwing himself in with the out vote, he guarantees to be in that two. If he didn't, I can't see how he'd have got the backing over either May or Javid among MPs, let alone whoever became the most popular among the 'out' group.Essentially the MPs narrow it down to two candidates, which then go to the membership. Barring anything unforeseen, it'll be Boris vs Osborne.
Agreed with @Jippy - why are people suddenly so entitled? Ironically it's because of this hyper-compeition from Europe, from the US, from other emerging markets that cause people's wages to be depressed....
The whole artificial management based on, what, some people's idealistic left-wing ideas scare me more IMO!
Cameron's angry because he needed the support of Boris, but if he carries on in that nasty way he does when he's annoyed he'll engender even more support for Boris.Surprised Cameron went strongly against Boris in public. He'll probably try to sink his teeth in over the next few months then, so his mate George gets the big job.