EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?


  • Total voters
    653
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think Boris Johnson's ideal vision of the UK is more likely than reforming the EU...

But, for what is most likely to happen, we are better of staying by a long way.
 
Interesting take on the matter from Anatole Kaletsky. @Nick 0208 Ldn

To understand the dynamics that strongly favor an “In” vote, start with the politics. Until this month’s deal, Britain’s leaders could not seriously make the case against Brexit. After all, Prime Minister David Cameron and his government had to pretend that they would contemplate a breakup if the EU rejected their demands.

Political imbalance
Under these circumstances, it was impossible for either Labour Party politicians or business leaders to advocate an EU deal that Cameron himself was not yet ready to promote. The “Out” lobby therefore enjoyed a virtual monopoly of public attention. This situation may briefly persist, even though the EU deal has now been agreed, because Cameron has no wish to antagonize his party’s implacable Euroskeptics until it is absolutely necessary; but as the referendum approaches, this political imbalance will abruptly reverse.

One reason is Cameron’s decision to release his ministers from party discipline during the referendum campaign. Initially viewed as a sign of weakness, Cameron’s move has turned out to be a masterstroke. Having been offered the freedom to “vote your conscience” on the EU deal, most significant Conservative politicians—with the notable exceptions of Boris Johnson and Michael Gove—have come around to supporting Cameron.

As a result, the “Out” campaign has been left effectively leaderless and has already split into two rival factions—one driven mainly by anti-immigrant and protectionist sentiment, the other determined to concentrate on neoliberal economics and free trade. Even in the unlikely event that the charismatic Johnson manages to unite the squabbling political eccentrics and widely divergent ideologies backing Brexit, the London Mayor’s buffoonish image and his many contradictory comments in the past about Europe will only add to the air of chaos and frivolity surrounding the Brexit campaign.
 
Not really, most just don't want to join the Anti-EU agenda because its discourse is dominated by right wing scare mongering such as 'Immigrants are overrunning us' or 'We're just funding those unworthy eastern European countries'. Most of the left across Europe agrees that the EU has big problems such as undemocratic structures, massive lobbyists influence or shady trade agreements like TTIP. Doesn't mean they have to jump on the identity/sovereignity losing, control immigration etc. train.
I'm not british so I can't vote anyway but I know I wouldn't support a campaign that is lead by bellends like Farage, Galloway or Boris Johnson. And let's face it: Leaving the EU won't make Britain more liberal, progressive or socially fair - like others said, it'll just give the Tories free reign to do what they want.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter. There are elements that would see me vote leave but ultimately they're issues to fight against rather than a vision to strive towards.

I can only see Brexit benefiting the rights discourse where as a vote to remain should put these things to bed.
 
Looks like more than half of the Tory Mps will vote to leave the EU
 
Interesting take on the matter from Anatole Kaletsky. @Nick 0208 Ldn

To understand the dynamics that strongly favor an “In” vote, start with the politics. Until this month’s deal, Britain’s leaders could not seriously make the case against Brexit. After all, Prime Minister David Cameron and his government had to pretend that they would contemplate a breakup if the EU rejected their demands.

Political imbalance
Under these circumstances, it was impossible for either Labour Party politicians or business leaders to advocate an EU deal that Cameron himself was not yet ready to promote. The “Out” lobby therefore enjoyed a virtual monopoly of public attention. This situation may briefly persist, even though the EU deal has now been agreed, because Cameron has no wish to antagonize his party’s implacable Euroskeptics until it is absolutely necessary; but as the referendum approaches, this political imbalance will abruptly reverse.

One reason is Cameron’s decision to release his ministers from party discipline during the referendum campaign. Initially viewed as a sign of weakness, Cameron’s move has turned out to be a masterstroke. Having been offered the freedom to “vote your conscience” on the EU deal, most significant Conservative politicians—with the notable exceptions of Boris Johnson and Michael Gove—have come around to supporting Cameron.

As a result, the “Out” campaign has been left effectively leaderless and has already split into two rival factions—one driven mainly by anti-immigrant and protectionist sentiment, the other determined to concentrate on neoliberal economics and free trade. Even in the unlikely event that the charismatic Johnson manages to unite the squabbling political eccentrics and widely divergent ideologies backing Brexit, the London Mayor’s buffoonish image and his many contradictory comments in the past about Europe will only add to the air of chaos and frivolity surrounding the Brexit campaign.
Very little of that seems likely to be true.

Does the "Out" lobby have more political imbalance than the "In"? Possibly. But I don't see why that is a problem. We already know which way racist or xenophobic people are going to vote, so Boris doesn't need to unite the whole damned clan. What he needs to do, is make a case that the "Out" campaign, is not a "Out" of world politics; it's not about removing the UK from Europe or the world. What he needs to do is make the case that the "Out" vote gives Britain a much more interesting position in the world, and makes us much more of a world citizen than if we stay in.

On the flip side, you are going to have the conservatives who are going to have to defend the deal they got, whilst at the same time attacking the EU for not letting them go further, but somehow show why they want to remain in Europe at all. You've got Labour (themselves in disarray) and the Lib Dems (a shadow of their former selves), who may or may not go all-out to remain in.

This bit, I don't understand at all.
Having been offered the freedom to “vote your conscience” on the EU deal, most significant Conservative politicians—with the notable exceptions of Boris Johnson and Michael Gove—have come around to supporting Cameron.

As a result, the “Out” campaign has been left effectively leaderless...
What does that mean, that because Boris and Gove have joined the "Outers" that they are now leaderless?
 
Very little of that seems likely to be true.

Does the "Out" lobby have more political imbalance than the "In"? Possibly. But I don't see why that is a problem. We already know which way racist or xenophobic people are going to vote, so Boris doesn't need to unite the whole damned clan. What he needs to do, is make a case that the "Out" campaign, is not a "Out" of world politics; it's not about removing the UK from Europe or the world. What he needs to do is make the case that the "Out" vote gives Britain a much more interesting position in the world, and makes us much more of a world citizen than if we stay in.

On the flip side, you are going to have the conservatives who are going to have to defend the deal they got, whilst at the same time attacking the EU for not letting them go further, but somehow show why they want to remain in Europe at all. You've got Labour (themselves in disarray) and the Lib Dems (a shadow of their former selves), who may or may not go all-out to remain in.

This bit, I don't understand at all.

What does that mean, that because Boris and Gove have joined the "Outers" that they are now leaderless?
Not sure tbh. Am hoping the toxicity of Gove will sink anything he attaches himself to.
 
Moody's now saying the costs of leaving would outweigh any benefits, raises potential of credit rating being lowered. These things'll keep coming out over the next few months. If it becomes generally accepted by the public that leaving is "risky", Leave is sunk.
 
I suspect that for the majority of British, Daily Mail/Express reading, people, it's more about bloody foreigners than any perceived economic advantages. Also, if people honestly think that, if there is an out vote, a whole load of EU legislation is simply going to be swept away on 24 June, then they are going to be sorely disappointed. Each piece of legislation will be looked at, more arguments will be put forward for the merits of the legislation than the downsides and it will be brought in in mildly amended form anyway.
 
Johnson won't go down well outside London. He's likely to lose more votes for Out than he gains.

On the other hand we haven't seen much of Corbyn yet. That thought is stopping me betting on Remain at the moment.
 
Last edited:
Hopefully it'll be more Alan Johnson doing the arguing than Corbyn. I think Corbyn would be okay with that in fact, given he'd not really care about an out vote.
 
Wasn't there a poll recently that asked which politician's opinions were seen as most important as to influencing voters decision on the Brexit? I think Corbyn came about 6th, even behind Theresa May.
 
Cameron taking the piss out of Boris in the Commons, fun.
 
Cameron seems to have completely shot down Boris Johnsons ideas. In or out .Final.
 
Does Boris become PM sharpish, if Leave wins? Can't see Cameron fancying carrying on and Osborne would be hugely damaged.
 
:lol: Cameron's contempt for Boris is excellent.

Ed! I miss Ed.
 
On the contrary, Boris is very popular outside of London as well as inside. He'll influence a lot of people.

I heard a call on the same show from a chap who was saying how unpopular he is in London due to a constant string of broken promises. Let's be honest his opinion is only front page news because he's a clear front runner for the leadership and it doesn't take a genius to work out which way the other candidate in that particular race will be voting.
I don't think Boris is as popular as he once was and if he pushes and pushes for the Brexit and the vote goes the other way.... Well it won't be good for him.
 
Does Boris become PM sharpish, if Leave wins? Can't see Cameron fancying carrying on and Osborne would be hugely damaged.
If it goes against him and at the moment it looks likely it would be a huge blow to his ambition to becoming Tory leader.
 
Boris Johnson is a fecking tosser of the highest order. Him and Farage as spearheads for Leave. :lol:
 
Tory membership tends to be outers I think, so I don't think it'll harm Boris's leadership desires if we vote to remain, particularly given Osborne's pro-EU.

That said, his idea of voting leave to get a better deal to stay in after all is weak, and if Cameron carries on sticking the knife in as he did today, Boris could end up looking much diminished.
 
If it goes against him and at the moment it looks likely it would be a huge blow to his ambition to becoming Tory leader.

I think he knows this his only opportunity to compete with Osbourne. He's probably made the right decision, he has a lot to gain and I don't think he'll be that diminished if we vote to remain in.

I'm going to enjoy his battles with Cameron and Co, time for the Tories to attack each other for a change.

Cameron is speaking bullshit so it shouldn't be difficult to call him out on it. The only chance they've got is to keep the focus on the bogus reforms as they'll lose a more considered argument I think.
 
Tory membership tends to be outers I think, so I don't think it'll harm Boris's leadership desires if we vote to remain, particularly given Osborne's pro-EU.

That said, his idea of voting leave to get a better deal to stay in after all is weak, and if Cameron carries on sticking the knife in as he did today, Boris could end up looking much diminished.
His father feels it could potentially end his career. I can't see how he would look credible as a PM candidate if the UK convincingly votes to stay.
 
On the contrary, Boris is very popular outside of London as well as inside. He'll influence a lot of people.

Boris, Farage, and Galloway.
Good luck.

His father feels it could potentially end his career. I can't see how he would look credible as a PM candidate if the UK convincingly votes to stay.

It's true he would appear a loser, but the Tory membership who vote for their leader will still have seen him fight for what most of them think is the right cause.
 
His father feels it could potentially end his career. I can't see how he would look credible as a PM candidate if the UK convincingly votes to stay.
This is the opposing argument that I read yesterday:




(I can't show more than five tweets in one post, but...)
Tweet four - That can't happen if he loses the support of grassroots. He has no real backing in parliament, after all.
Tweet five - A valiant loser on the Leave side will carry a romantic credibility among activists.
Tweet six - So Boris HAS to go for out.


Makes sense, though I thought that Tory MPs had the majority of the say in who the next party leader would be? Can't remember how it works. Would be worrying to see the Tories follow the recent UK/US trend of members voting for the extreme wing of their party...

Also, this makes Boris look particularly terrible:

Buffoon.
 
The egos in the leave group. Boris, Farage and Galloway. Oh my.
There's bound to be a falling out and the different out campaigns calling each other names at some point.


@ThierryHenry I had totally forgotten it's the members that pick the next leader. I do agree he's in it for himself but to be fair, Boris has been a strong Eurosceptic for a long time.
 
Tory membership tends to be outers I think, so I don't think it'll harm Boris's leadership desires if we vote to remain, particularly given Osborne's pro-EU.

That said, his idea of voting leave to get a better deal to stay in after all is weak, and if Cameron carries on sticking the knife in as he did today, Boris could end up looking much diminished.
It's not weak. If we do vote to leave there will be two years of negotiation after that. Negotiation which could give Cameron what he asked for in the first place. There's no other way he'll get it. And no other way he'll manage to get a better deal for the British public.
 
It's not weak. If we do vote to leave there will be two years of negotiation after that. Negotiation which could give Cameron what he asked for in the first place. There's no other way he'll get it. And no other way he'll manage to get a better deal for the British public.
It's a weak argument that it would stand any chance of working. There's two years until we're automatically removed from the EU, during which time we're supposed to be negotiating the free-trade deals that the Outers says will be as good or better than before (and which usually take longer than two years to sort out). What do you think we're going to get on immigration for example, when even people already outside the EU but inside the economic area have to go along with free movement? It's basically the "having your cake and eating it" idea, thinking we can get all the good bits about the EU without any of the bad, just by virtue of threatening to leave in bad faith.
 
Makes sense, though I thought that Tory MPs had the majority of the say in who the next party leader would be? Can't remember how it works. Would be worrying to see the Tories follow the recent UK/US trend of members voting for the extreme wing of their party...
Essentially the MPs narrow it down to two candidates, which then go to the membership. Barring anything unforeseen, it'll be Boris vs Osborne.
 
Essentially the MPs narrow it down to two candidates, which then go to the membership. Barring anything unforeseen, it'll be Boris vs Osborne.
So by throwing himself in with the out vote, he guarantees to be in that two. If he didn't, I can't see how he'd have got the backing over either May or Javid among MPs, let alone whoever became the most popular among the 'out' group.
 
Surprised Cameron went strongly against Boris in public. He'll probably try to sink his teeth in over the next few months then, so his mate George gets the big job.
 
Agreed with @Jippy - why are people suddenly so entitled? Ironically it's because of this hyper-compeition from Europe, from the US, from other emerging markets that cause people's wages to be depressed....

The whole artificial management based on, what, some people's idealistic left-wing ideas scare me more IMO!

It's capitalisms promise. Leave the money in the hands of the wealthy and we'll all progress upwards.

Your parents lived a better life than their parents and so on. Sadly this generation maybe the first in a century who will be poorer than their parents.
 
Surprised Cameron went strongly against Boris in public. He'll probably try to sink his teeth in over the next few months then, so his mate George gets the big job.
Cameron's angry because he needed the support of Boris, but if he carries on in that nasty way he does when he's annoyed he'll engender even more support for Boris.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.