EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?

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Marcelinho87 said:
How do we decide it though?

Can't be leaving it up to the politicians who will surely push for whatever suits their personal agendas.
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True. Although at least the politicians will be wholly accountable and any party that took us out of the EU as a choice would shoulder the consequences... good or bad. If a party took us out and things went very badly, they'd become unelectable.

As things stand if we leave, it was the public's choice. No real accountability if things go badly. An economic downturn also provides the Government with every excuse they could ever want to cut unfancied public services.
 
rednev said:
As well as an issue of economics and complex comparative politics, it is essentially a question of democracy. It can't be right that the political class is able spend decades gradually developing a political structure so massive and convoluted that it becomes above democracy. We're not voting on a particular economic or political policy here, we're voting on a fundamental matter of sovereignty.
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Sovereignty? You mean that approx 4% of UK law which arrives from the EU, most of which on matters such as workers right, consumer protection etc? Or do you mean that other 96 % of UK law being autonomous from the EU?
 
Voting remain. The EU isn't perfect but its not so broken that I'm going to risk my job or the jobs of my friends and family over it. People will say it won't be as bad as some people are saying. Maybe? The big question to me is: what if it is as bad as the experts are warning? To me things aren't so bad that I wanna take the risk of finding out if the Bank of England knows what its on about.

Right now, I've got a job, I can pay the bills, and my situation ain't so bad that I'd be willing to chance it getting worse. I can't pay my mortgage off in high minded arguments. So I'll leave those to people better able to do political philosophy and vote remain out of self-interest.
 
Basically the notion of representative democracy, in the sense defined by Bagehot, still plays a strong role in the British psyche I think. We elect representatives who will represent us through taking decisions on tough issues which we do not have the time or expertise to decide on, and if we are unhappy we will say so periodically at the ballot box. Notions of direct democracy are often unpopular - just remember Labour's attempt for loads of directly elected mayors and regional assemblies. People didn't really want it then. Piecemeal reforms in a polity with an unwritten constitution don't really work.
 
Alock1 said:
Monarchy, House of Lords, Judicial Review nevermind all the laws which do not need to specify what exactly they enable, have removed transparency and are immune to independant scrutiny.
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The ultimate irony there is that it is often the courts and the HoL which reigns in government. Attention needs to be paid to the elected dictatorship of the Commons too. If you have Whips and 100 Ministers, and a majority, you can do a lot. Just ask Tony Blair.

Rams said:
Sovereignty? You mean that approx 4% of UK law which arrives from the EU, most of which on matters such as workers right, consumer protection etc? Or do you mean that other 96 % of UK law being autonomous from the EU?
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4% in the past year, defining EU Law narrowly. Realistically it is anything between 17-75%, but most of it is "harmless" in the sense that it replicates provisions of UK law or in no way affects us (like the regulations applying to olive farming).
 
Frosty said:
The ultimate irony there is that it is often the courts and the HoL which reigns in government. Attention needs to be paid to the elected dictatorship of the Commons too. If you have Whips and 100 Ministers, and a majority, you can do a lot. Just ask Tony Blair.



4% in the past year, defining EU Law narrowly. Realistically it is anything between 17-75%, but most of it is "harmless" in the sense that it replicates provisions of UK law or in no way affects us (like the regulations applying to olive farming).
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Actually, considering the UK doesn't have a constitution it's bit more complicated than that, but if we were to judge law in a way you would consider law as in a civil code or criminal law it would be far far less than 17%. To suggest that the referendum is a vote on sovereignty is completly miss leading.
 
Rams said:
Actually, considering the UK doesn't have a constitution it's bit more complicated than that, but if we were to judge law in a way you would consider law as in a civil code or criminal law it would be far far less than 17%. To suggest that the referendum is a vote on sovereignty is completly miss leading.
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I am not in disagreement with you. Sadly the issue is the unwritten constitution. There was a House of Commons briefing paper on this issue (how much of UK law comes from the EU) a couple of years ago which basically concluded that it depends on how you define law. Sadly this nuance has been long since swept away. A written constitution and a proper separation of powers would be a nice start.
 
Frosty said:
A lot of local authorities will declare around 4am. We should get an idea then of who has won if it is not on a knifeedge. Otherwise, more like 6-7am.
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Ubik said:
Yup, great piece here - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/19/eu-referendum-result-polls-britain-europe

Sunderland as usual the earliest to declare, and the assumption is that if the national vote is tied, Leave should win there by about 6%. So if it's closer to a tie, Remain is hopefully doing okay.
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Brilliant, cheers guys. Knowledgeable as ever.

Prediction: Remain wins by 8 points.
 
Frosty said:
I am not in disagreement with you. Sadly the issue is the unwritten constitution. There was a House of Commons briefing paper on this issue (how much of UK law comes from the EU) a couple of years ago which basically concluded that it depends on how you define law. Sadly this nuance has been long since swept away. A written constitution and a proper separation of powers would be a nice start.
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Agreed, a referendum on the UK finally introducing a constitution really would be beneficial! ;)
 
Carolina Red said:
Oh god.. If the UK leaves the EU then starts hammering out a written constitution can we call you all copy cats?
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Nope. I'm still maintaining that the US copied off us first. Which they did. We just forgot to write it down, thinking everything would be fine. (Although the bit about only protestants having a right to bear arms I am glad we lost)
 
Frosty said:
Nope. I'm still maintaining that the US copied off us first. Which they did. We just forgot to write it down, thinking everything would be fine. (Although the bit about only protestants having a right to bear arms I am glad we lost)
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Well of course we copied you. But you all seem to be on the verge of returning the favor.

Boris Johnson is a poor replacement for George Washington though.
 
Wow the Channel 4 debate is even worse than the BBC one and Paxman really has no control.

Really don't know why I bother
 
Nearly forgot this was tomorrow. Feel like turnout won't be too high.
 
Cheesy said:
Nearly forgot this was tomorrow. Feel like turnout won't be too high.
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I disagree I think it'll get a big turnout. The spin of democracy seems to have only helped encourage those who feel distanced from politics to vote.
 
Yeah the channel 4 show is a total mess.

Pertinent points being missed and too much focus on "Why is "immigrant" now a racist word?"
 
Cheesy said:
Nearly forgot this was tomorrow. Feel like turnout won't be too high.
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Because of the volatile nature of the topic, there will definitely be a higher turnout than the General. Whether or not the turnout will be high enough for a Remain win, remains to be see particularly as the weather doesn't look good tomorrow.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Because of the volatile nature of the topic, there will definitely be a higher turnout than the General. Whether or not the turnout will be high enough for a Remain win, remains to be see particularly as the weather doesn't look good tomorrow.
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Well, if the country ends up voting itself into a 2nd Great Depression, at least you can blame poor British weather.
 
In fairness, it'd be the most British way for this to go.

Right after 'if anyone is gonna feck up our country it's going to be us - vote leave'
 
Alock1 said:
I disagree I think it'll get a big turnout. The spin of democracy seems to have only helped encourage those who feel distanced from politics to vote.
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Perhaps. Just feel like it's really hardly been discussed where I am lately, almost no one bringing it up whereas the indy referendum was a massive topic at the time.
 
I was with some older people today and was quite surprised they were unanimous in extreme dislike for Germany, which allegedly created the EU in order to exert dominance over Europe in a sort of bloodless victory for a new 4th Reich. I'd really no idea so many people felt that way.
 
712 said:
I was with some older people today and was quite surprised they were unanimous in extreme dislike for Germany, which allegedly created the EU in order to exert dominance over Europe in a sort of bloodless victory for a new 4th Reich. I'd really no idea so many people felt that way.
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In all fairness, my great uncle still doesn't trust the Japanese either.
 
Wow Remain should just get Shiela Hancock to speak for them. Making the argument for peace that's often lost in the trauma over Economics and Immigration.
 
The channel 4 debate is terrible, Paxman is doing a terrible job too
 
Turned it on to see it kicking off :lol:

Oh yes the security argument, the EU is definitely holding it all together and keeping us safe :wenger:
 
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