They were big in the 90s but I can't see Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash and Scott Hall holding much influence these days.
EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.
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I have a suspicion that the government needs immigration to keep the economy looking good anyway.
Though not if they use pens
It's a major factor for me personally. The years immediately following a potential successful leave campaign are absolutely crucial and could leave a lasting effect for decades to come.
Good point. Depends who you are trying to convince I guess.
Also if all this power and control is such a good thing, why is it only really Ukip and BJ who want it?
I am undecided as of yet but throughout all this I have witness the remain camp do nothing but call the leavers "morons and gullible" amongst other names.
Is it not unfair to label all the leavers as one just because they have different views?
Is it not unfair to label all the leavers as one just because they have different views?
A newbie just said the economy wasn't important because economists are only concerned with money where as he's concerned with social cohesion.
And all the leave campaign do is either flat out lie, or make promises based on no plan or ignore direct questions, and call the remainers scaremongers when they bring up legitimate expert opinion from people far more informed than Boris Johnson. Is it not unfair to ask for evidence or some kind of plan before you feck your children's future up?
It's on both sides. But none of that, none of it whatsoever changes the independent research and expert opinion that's out there.
I presume reporting of exit polls is barred in the UK till 10pm
But can foreign sites report them online?
But can foreign sites report them online?
Cause social cohesion was just grand during the fecking depression.
A lot of the educated seem to just palm this as 'well of course, remain is safer as they have no idea what happens if we leave' which whilst technically correct seems to be be based on the experts shrugging & concluding 'well, better the devil you know i guess' which really isn't whats been happening.
I've just seen someone on Facebook declare he's voting to remain as if we leave the price of cocaine will go up. He's being completely serious too.
I'm sorry but the leave campaign is in my opinion shrowded in underlying racism. There's a hell of a lot of people, particularly the older generation that are just using this as an opportunity to try and stop immigrants with no consideration of the reasons why they even want them gone. I'm actually stunned at the amount of people that want to leave and I'm sorry to generalise but there's a hell of a lot of uneducated people voting to leave when they barely understand the consequences and the European system in full.
Needless to say I'll be gutted if we leave because I think that could just have a hugely negative impact on my life. Difficulties working abroad- even going on holiday, increased terror threat, a weaker economy in the hands of the tories and an NHS that will be pushed to breaking point. There's two sides to every coin and I appreciate that but this one should have been a non starter and people shouldn't be so naive to think that the 'grass is greener on the other side'.
Needless to say I'll be gutted if we leave because I think that could just have a hugely negative impact on my life. Difficulties working abroad- even going on holiday, increased terror threat, a weaker economy in the hands of the tories and an NHS that will be pushed to breaking point. There's two sides to every coin and I appreciate that but this one should have been a non starter and people shouldn't be so naive to think that the 'grass is greener on the other side'.
Priorities
To be fair if you were spending £5000-7000 a year on something every year you wouldn't want the price to go up either.
Thinking about it now it's probably one of the more reasonable reasons for voting that I've encountered over the last few weeks
No exit poll, essentially because it's impossible to know what the makeup of the electorate will be/which areas of the country are representative enough to sample. YouGov are doing an on the day poll with a large sample which they'll publish after 10, but it's not an exit poll and not as accurate as one - they also published one last May and it was just as off as their previous polls, whereas that exit poll was good.
Well he has a better understanding of basic economics than a market trader I saw on on the News ... "These are French tarts, they come from France. If we leave, I can still get them and they won't cost me any more, so I'm voting leave..."
Seriously? Did you miss the whole debate about tariffs? The concept of free trade? Pretty sure if we leave they will cost you more!
Is this what happened with the Scottish referendum? I remember a reasonably accurate poll shortly after voting closed.
Some woman on the news literally said 'what have the EU ever done for us? Nothing.' It's so moronic, how can someone be so massively uninformed.
By the looks of it yeah, gave No an 8 point lead which was closer to the final 10 point win than polls had been previously (averaging closer to 5). It'll be worth looking at, and I'll be bricking it if it shows a Leave lead, but still not close to being as rigorous as a true exit poll.
I've decided in the last couple of days I'm voting remain, but both campaigns have been very poor considering how important this vote is. Even though the field I intent to work in would not be in least affected by immigration (and I'm pro immigration too), I don't think the Remain camp have had anything to say about how they would address people's genuine concerns about depressed wages and despite some of the obvious scaremongering from Leave (that UKIP poster for example) at least they're actually putting forward a solution. Although 50% of immigrants that come are from outside the EU, it is disproportionally higher from inside and doesn't seem particularly fair on those trying to arrive from outside the other 27 member states. I also don't particularly like the EU as an institution and hope that we continue to keep an 'arms length' approach going forward. They seem a very shady organisation and some of the behaviour towards Greece and others leaves a lot to be desired.
Having said that, I absolutely do not trust our government to negotiate trade deals on our own and think that people such as Farage overstate our ability and influence on our own. From what I understand, Switzerland and Norway have to accept certain EU conditions despite being outside, so I'm not sure we we'd able to remove freedom of movement for a points system even if the public wanted it. I honestly have no idea how bad the economy would be if we left, apparently some of those giving us warnings also advocated joining the ERM and the Euro too. But I do think that EU would try and make an example of us in order to discourage others from trying to leave in the future and it would not be as plain sailing as Leave would have us believe. The £350m gross figure we send may not be able to spent here anyway if the EU decided to impose tariffs on us, it's too much of a gamble. Knowing that leaving could also likely mean Johnson or Gove in power I definitely worry about what would happen to the NHS and worker's rights. The EU is not perfect, but at least it helps keep people like that in check to certain extent. They could do serious damage before we have a chance to vote them out in 2020. There are other benefits that freedom of movement gives for people who want to work and travel abroad, which can only be kept if we stay.
So on balance I think we should remain, but proceed with caution and continue to try and reform the EU as much as we can.
Having said that, I absolutely do not trust our government to negotiate trade deals on our own and think that people such as Farage overstate our ability and influence on our own. From what I understand, Switzerland and Norway have to accept certain EU conditions despite being outside, so I'm not sure we we'd able to remove freedom of movement for a points system even if the public wanted it. I honestly have no idea how bad the economy would be if we left, apparently some of those giving us warnings also advocated joining the ERM and the Euro too. But I do think that EU would try and make an example of us in order to discourage others from trying to leave in the future and it would not be as plain sailing as Leave would have us believe. The £350m gross figure we send may not be able to spent here anyway if the EU decided to impose tariffs on us, it's too much of a gamble. Knowing that leaving could also likely mean Johnson or Gove in power I definitely worry about what would happen to the NHS and worker's rights. The EU is not perfect, but at least it helps keep people like that in check to certain extent. They could do serious damage before we have a chance to vote them out in 2020. There are other benefits that freedom of movement gives for people who want to work and travel abroad, which can only be kept if we stay.
So on balance I think we should remain, but proceed with caution and continue to try and reform the EU as much as we can.
Desperate times calls for desperate measures
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060
Sorry if this has been posted already but I wondered if the Head of the BDI might be an expert and his view about the introduction of tariffs might be worthy of a mention?
Sorry if this has been posted already but I wondered if the Head of the BDI might be an expert and his view about the introduction of tariffs might be worthy of a mention?
This is the major fundamental problem with the whole issue.
We're talking about seriously complex issues which the average person just doesn't in any way come close to understanding. And that's not an insult, you can't expect people to fully understand economics and the complexity of the full relationship with the EU.
Politicians on both sides are reducing these things to soundbites and the potential ramifications are nothing short of enormous.
An issue of the magnitude should not be decided by way of a referendum.
How do we decide it though?
Can't be leaving it up to the politicians who will surely push for whatever suits their personal agendas.
Well that's another problem, but we elect these people in order for them to make the right decisions.
That's not a suspicion but a fact.
Well, would you propose a referendum for every piece of legislation?
As well as an issue of economics and complex comparative politics, it is essentially a question of democracy. It can't be right that the political class is able spend decades gradually developing a political structure so massive and convoluted that it becomes above democracy. We're not voting on a particular economic or political policy here, we're voting on a fundamental matter of sovereignty.
Yikes.
Any rough timeline for what will come through when through the night/ when we may have an idea of the result? Assuming that it's not a dead heat at least.
Which is why this is only the third nationwide referendum in the UK's history. What did Attlee call them again? "Tools for demagogues"?
A lot of local authorities will declare around 4am. We should get an idea then of who has won if it is not on a knifeedge. Otherwise, more like 6-7am.
It's not above democracy
Should be fairly certain between the hours of 6-7am on Friday I think. Maybe 5 if its not quite as close as polls so far suggest.
It's not "above democracy", that's just nonsense, we're talking about democratically elected MP's making decisions. By that logic we should hold referendums for everything and scrap Parliament.
Also sovereignty is not an issue here. Another myth.
I like that.
Yup, great piece here - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/19/eu-referendum-result-polls-britain-europe
Sunderland as usual the earliest to declare, and the assumption is that if the national vote is tied, Leave should win there by about 6%. So if it's closer to a tie, Remain is hopefully doing okay.
It is ironic that democracy is invoked here given our own hereditary monarchy and unelected upper chamber.
Not to belittle the point though. If Leave win I would like to see attention turned to democratising the UK's constitutional settlement properly.
Monarchy, House of Lords, Judicial Review nevermind all the laws which do not need to specify what exactly they enable, have removed transparency and are immune to independant scrutiny.
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