BTW in that scenario Italy could say feck UK, Germany might actually now start buying from us more becase we'll be more competitive for them. It only takes one country to veto.
EU Referendum Results Thread | Leave have won, Cameron resigns
- Thread starter Damien
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Maybe not the right thread for it, but is someone so kind and explain these Zero hour contracts for me, because I don´t know about them in Germany and we follow the same guide lines from the EU (we have stronger national employment rights, though).
its was a small comment i said in my post about trying to decide which way to vote, i said i didnt care about workers right becuase right now we hardly have any so worrying about it was pointless in deciding which way to vote as the current rights are been so heavily abused by companies anyway.
and no i don't thnk it will be no, i simply trying to point out one of the main remain arguments was protecting workers rights, but very few people right now feel they have rights so that isnt gonna convince people to vote the way you want them to.
Just FYI, this bit isn't actually true at all. Taking the figures from the last census, about 53% of the UK's adult population are 45 and over... the demographic more likely to vote leave.
I suspect voter turnout was actually pretty good across the age divide.
Stuck on Fox News to see some American reaction and my head hurts.
I think Obama is at fault here for telling the British how hot their kettles can be but I'm not sure..
I think Obama is at fault here for telling the British how hot their kettles can be but I'm not sure..
It's not 10% of all the EU's exports. It's nowhere near. I really don't understand why you haven't understood this yet.
you do get holiday pay on zero hours contracts
I think I heard on QI that any stretch of coastline can be said to be of infinite length, because it depends on the method used to measure it.
i dont understand why we would be forced to pay up because we manufacture so little? surely because we manufacture so little and import so much country are more likely to not put tarrfs on goods as it affects thier goods more then ours are by logic theirs more of them?
and surely if the EU's most wealth country(Germany) takes a knock by loss of 5 billion exports, surely thats gonna have a knock on affect, the one thing that seems to happen again and again in the world economy, when one big economy suffers they all suffer.
im not gonna get into the immigration debate again i've spent a month trying to understand it and for every point pro immigration thier is an equally good anti one..... for me it came down to how can more poepl be a good thing when we don't have enough full time jobs for the people who are here?........ and no one has answered that for me in a way that is even vaguely satisfying way. every time i have asked it ive just gone spun answers trying to get me to agree with them rather them trying to give a balanced view, and genrally when you question it all ive got abuse.
on the flip side the leave campaign has done exactly the same on the ecconmy...... so i ended up not voting for either side cos i didnt no and all people wanted me to do was agree with them and all i wanted was the facts.... and all you get when you ask is spin or abuse.....
A controversial form of employment contract in the UK where the employer does not guarantee you a specific number of working hours but instead expects you to work as and when he demands. Around 20% of the UK's private employees are now thought to be on 0 hour contracts including most restaurant and fast foodworkers, supermarkets like Tesco, J D Wetherspoons.
You do, but it's based on the pro rata of your hours worked in the previous 12 months so if they've only been drip feeding you 15 hour weeks they will only give you 30 hours pay for your 2 weeks leave.
Zero hour contracts also make it much easier to get rid of staff.
I'll be the first to welcome you to Norway. ^^,)
it is 10% or more according to these statistics its 16%
Link: https://fullfact.org/europe/where-does-eu-export/
OK, why is that connected to the criticism towards the EU then? Because they don´t prohibit it? Thats national law for me and something the British government has to tackle.
My stance has been consistent unlike yours which appears to mutate with each post. I pulled you up on a sweeping, generalised and inaccurate statement that you attempted to explain away with something far more nuanced. But we made some progress.
No facts are being disputed only generalised, sweeping, and ultimately meaningless statements such as..
I'm sure he can't have meant that, because it makes no sense to denie unemployement is caused by EU rules by comparing UK's unemployment with that of others countries who have to deal with the same EU rules concerning immigration.
Stealing jobs implies that the immigrants are doing something wrong, which of course isn't the case.
I'm not against immigration. But this is about the right of Europeans from a poor country to work in a rich country, wether they are needed or not, and that is putting pressure on wages and job security for the natives. And I know a lot of them have a better work attitude and are enthousiast and inventive, but if there was no abundance of immigrants employers would try harder to get the British for their job and they would certainly organize themselves to prevent skill shortages.
The Tories might have been first at it but the EU has the same agenda. And I know that people who care about their fellow men, like me, hate racism, bigotry and other negativity towards immigrants, but that's no reason to deny that free mass immigration from poor countries is bad for your native fellow men. It happens in all countries, but denial will only make it worse in the long term. Also in countries with more left wing governments subcontracters etc will find a way around minimum wages and other national laws. The EU won't do anything about it because those people work for the same interests as the Tories and the national government. Uncontrolled mass immigration serves the haves at the expense of the have nots.
I think those remainers should get off their high horse. The Brexit voters are so uneducated, old, xenophobic and ill informed. Well maybe they know what they need to know: The EU is an antidemocratic institution that serves the haves and want common people to work harder for less money so more money can be made off them And don't call me uneducated and ill-informed, I'm getting a bit tired of people acting superior because they are just about educated enough to make things unneccessary complicated and base their conclusion on understanding only half of their self invented complexity. Either you know all there is to know about the choice, or you go just by your common sense, if you stay in between you're almost certain to reach the wrong conclusion or stumble upon the right conclusion by accident.
By the way, Europe is a continent. The EU didn't make that, the EU didn't even make international cooperation on that continent. Calling the EU Europe is just propaganda. Successful propaganda as it seems, and not the only successful EU-propaganda appearantly.
It's amazing that the British voted on their emotions and think they will get a good deal from the EU because of economic logic.
The British are in for a very big shock when they realize how much the European identity is built into the identity of European countries, especially Germany.
The British are in for a very big shock when they realize how much the European identity is built into the identity of European countries, especially Germany.
It's not just manufactured goods, most of what we sell is intangibles like financial services and if we're not a paying member of their trade club and abide by their rules then why would they use our services when they can get them from elsewhere within the Union. As has already started to happen, the truth is that the likes of JP Morgan will desert the UK and set up elsewhere in Europe and we'll see all except the top jobs shed in the UK. There's not much we manufacture that we sell in vast quantities in Europe but the chances of us stopping buying things like olive oil, wine, cheese etc just because of tariffs will mean those small trades will not be hurt.
Similarly our trade status either within the EEA (with free movement and membership fees) or outside it (with tariffs) will not affect the sort of goods we import from Germany. When I'm looking for a new car in 2 years time I'll not be planning on trading in the Merc for a Toyota or Honda because the newly introduced tariffs have hit the cost that hard, I'd probably just come down a class or two, lose the AMG badge and get a less expensive fit out or possibly look to a formerly British car like a Jag from India.
Norway is far too expensive!
that is a very good post and explanation, thank you
It's not an EU issue at all, but I'm sure many have confused hard times on zero hour contracts with being members of the EU. It's similar to the French situation at the moment where the French government are trying to bypass EU workers rights but rather than striking as the French do we somehow manage to put up with the shite and then blame the entirely wrong people for it when we do lash out.
It seems simple... An employer phones an agency and asks for a worker. The agency finds a suitable unemployed worker on his books and tells them where to go at what time, what the work involves and what the hourly rate is. The rate usually includes a pro-rata amount for annual leave. The employer is free to terminate the worker's zero hours contract at any time without penalty. Workers on zero hours contract usually have no idea when or if they will have work/income. Doing a job well is not any kind of guarantee that the work will be ongoing.
This whole way of sourcing workers had led to a boom in employment agencies specialising in zero hours contracts and insecurity for the workforce.
My original statement is entirely accurate, also completely consistent with my later posts.
i don't think a lot of the people who voted out care what deal they get.... you got to look at the demographic of people who voted out poor people on under paid/zero hour or no job at all. Or the retired.
think we have to look a bit deeper then people voted with thier emotions, think the problem is the country right now has put so many people in a position where any kind of change was better then no change.
It is neither. You can continue repeating it but it remains inaccurate and your follow up is little more than an attempt at backtracking.
Good explanation. We have those in Canada, too. They're called 'Temps'.
I don't think so. The concept of a splendid isolation is one that appeals to many.
You know I'm distraught when I feel sorry for Cameron. We've made a mistake.
Farage, Johnson, Gove etc are all the most slimy, horrible politicians I've ever seen.
Farage, Johnson, Gove etc are all the most slimy, horrible politicians I've ever seen.
In what sense exactly.
Young people have to live with this. That is correct. They will live with a decision taken primarily by older generations. This is a fact.
So, again, it is entirely consistent, and your attempt to find inconsistency seems to have something to do with some notion of ageism.
The entire thing is mental.
He's just as bad. This whole thing happened because of his desperate attempt to stay in power.
But you'll earn more!
And you won't have to worry about us leaving the EU. lol.
I refer you to my original response to this post of yours that I took issue with
It is sweeping, inaccurate, and ageist in it's simplistic interpretation of the repurcussions of this vote. If you don't see that then we'd best leave it there.
Temps are a way of filling in seasonal fluctuations in workload and full time staff though, temping and casual labour always existed as a way of filling seasonal fluctuation and was generally done willingly by students, the retired and backpacking migrants. Zero hour contracts are ways of denying the rights of practically all your employees and keeping them beholden to you for work when they should really have full time contracts and all the legal protections that would offer them.
I'd not even really counted agency workers as zero hour staff but it is a fact that many large UK employers like BT employ 80-90% of their frontline telesales and helpline staff via an in house agency on zero hour contracts because it makes it very easy for them to cherry pick the best ones who they will take on with full time BT contracts after a couple of years and dismiss all the rest with no recompense.
No, all of those notions are merely your interpretations of my statement of simple fact. Ageist to say that older generations will have had a deciding say in what direction the younger generations' future now moves? No, that is also a statement of fact. What is a further statement of fact is that the younger generation voted in enormous numbers to remain. I've yet to make a post based on something that can't quickly be verified by evidence, so honestly perplexed at your allegations of "ageism", "inaccuracy", and condescending smileys, etc.
Yeah, guess we best leave it there.
Here's a better view of the result showing the correlation with voters having degrees:
London broadly in line with the national picture, just with more graduates than the norm. Scotland just more intrinsically in favour of remaining.
London broadly in line with the national picture, just with more graduates than the norm. Scotland just more intrinsically in favour of remaining.
Soo, classic scape goating then, gotcha. Unfortunately that happened far too often in the past in the UK and probably greatly influenced trhe outcome of this vote. Well that and massive misinformation like throwing together matters of the EU and the Euro zone (they are not the same thing!), no influence on EU laws (eventhough it is passed by a Parliament consisting of people elected in the respective countires) or litte influence in the EU in general (eventhough the UK had next to France the biggest influence after Germany).
It just boggles my mind how could the people of the UK throw away the great deal they had in the EU to "take back control". When has the Union ever forced something vital on the UK? In many key questions UK took the side of the opposition, forced a compromise or even decided of not doing it alltogether without consequences. Wanna sign the Schengen treaty? No, ok have fun with your borders. Wanna join the Euro club? Nope? Ok, keep your Sterling. Wanna participate in the official refugee relocating plan to help the poor feckers in the border countries? No, don´t worry we take care of it, but thanks for volluntarily taking in about 10% of what the biggest EU country handles...
Yeah, life must been hell for the British in the EU. Well worth it risking your economy to get out of that...
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I thought this was about the taking from the haves and giving to the have nots. But you only care about the British have nots?
(Anecdotal evidence incoming...) I've heard from a few people who employ for low-paid jobs and they say they get very few British people even apply for the jobs compared to foreigners. Maybe we're just a bunch of lazy cnuts who will get what we deserve when the economy tanks. That would correlate with the fact that we are well known for having poor productivity, which I doubt is the fault of the EU.
you can kind of see why people have lashed out on this vote though, you have politicians, experts, celebrities, banging on about saving the economy and workers rights at a time when the economy isn't working for so many, and so many don't feel like they have any rights. its kind of like telling a person whose getting kicked to vote to keep getting kicked cos they might get kicked harder.
i know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but in hindsight that was a terrible tactic.
but i agree with you the country as a whole should of stood up for its rights along time ago and this wasn't the time to have a protest vote
It definitely wasn't the time for a protest vote and unfortunately the ones who will be hit the hardest by the likely fallout will be the poor, the underemployed and the honest middle ground tax payer who will be expected to keep us afloat with the young being especially hard hit as they will find it even harder to get on the housing ladder, maintain steady and well paid employment and generally make the sort of progress my generation took for granted.
I don't think your kicking analogy is wrong either but sadly the right wing media have done a great job for many decades prior to the possibility of a referendum convincing those being kicked that the boot was on the foot of the EU or this months demon in waiting be it illegal or economic migrants, benefit frauds, single mothers etc rather than it being big UK corporations and our politicians doing the kicking. The overdrive they went into in the run up to the referendum has helped create a toxic attitude in Britain and fractured the country pretty much down the middle and that too is something that could take a generation or more for us to overcome.
I can back it up with my own anecdotal evidence. I used to work for an agency that supplied employees for a logistics company to sort parcels for delivery in a warehouse, we would bring in EU migrants by the bus load because it was the only way to actually meet the demand. The work is all night and bloody hard, lads would come in from Poland and boss it tbh, English lads we brought in were soft as shit and a lot of them packed it in within the month because they couldn't hack it. Way more than migrant workers at any rate. The labour turnover at the place was pretty high and we would be canvassing for new recruits on a daily basis for various reasons (leavers, sick cover, holiday cover, etc). I can guarantee that without the EU workers coming in the place would be fecked, they would never get the sort done on time and it would undoubtedly affect the delivery network in a big way. There's not even a question of it, you just couldn't get British workers in at the same rate. People wanting to close the borders because they don't like hearing an Eastern European accent when they go to pick up their kebab don't live in the real world. Migrants grease the gears and we need 'em.