Erik ten Hag vs Sancho | Sancho back in full training

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Gandalf Greyhame said:
Freudian crap coming up, but here's my take. Fragile and stubborn egos often come from insecurities. Sancho plays like someone who's lost belief in his ability - like he's already lost the 50-50 or the tackle or the sprint to a through ball or an attempted take on even before he's stepped onto the pitch. He's insecure about his ability because he hasn't delivered in so long, he doesn't know if he can. And he'd do anything but admit it because it's a difficult pill to swallow. He'll avoid committing to the cause, enjoy his fabulous wages, find faults in everyone but himself. He'll blame the manager for not picking him, complain about ill-treatment compared to teammates, and make public posts and burn bridges in this fight because all of that is still better to him, in his mind, that stepping onto the pitch giving it his all and realizing it's just not enough anymore. He's so afraid of failing at this stage that he'll do anything to not try.

The solution was to intervene earlier. An arm around the shoulder, and stubborn persistence from the manager about starting him and providing positive reinforcement even when things aren't going his way. The solution is regular time to get his confidence up through moments where he ends up surprising himself with how good his own play is, and sustaining it through validation from teammates and manager. But all of that that requires patience and a tolerance for poor returns that a club like United cannot afford to provide. So I think he's done here. If he finds a club where he can recover his confidence and overcome his insecurities, there's still a baller in there. But it won't happen at United, and it won't happen if he keeps trying to run away from his fear of not being good enough anymore. The latter will be dicey given the sycophantic poor company such insecure high earners keep.
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Armchair psychology and all, I think you're very much far closer to the truth of the matter than anything.

His lack of confidence in himself has shown itself constantly when he's on the pitch and it's been a far cry from the young hungry player we saw at Dortmund. He came in under massive expectations after a 2 years saga to get him and it coincided with our worst club season in the Premier League.

Now he's a bit of a shell of his former self on the pitch and I'm sure that's quite the bitter pill to swallow after coming back home to England so the internal blame has been aimed elsewhere no matter how illogical (I.e ETH playing double standards and treating him differently when he bent over backwards to meet him where he was at and support him last year).

The attitude/mentality issues had been touched upon at times at City and Dortmund but his tremendous natural ability was usually enough to shine through it all. The Premier League is a different beast though, you absolutely need to come proper mentally as much as physically to really thrive. It's why hard working/strong work ethic players without the physical attributes/talent work out much more often than the naturally gifted/flair/physical freak types with poor mentalities in this league.
 
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I remember watching Sancho for England in his Dortmund days, expecting a wonderkid and seeing some half paced pass back to the passer merchant.
Everyone else said he was smashing the German league up though, so I was still hopeful of a great player when we signed him.

Clearly bought for the right wing, we then found out he's not particularly good out there, but then he's now shown much in any other position. A few goals and assists every few months, but never looking particularly hard working, passionate or like he can beat someone.

What a shame. To be filed in the failed transfer locker with so many others, and no doubt an expensive loss again when we loan him back to Germany in January and then hope to get about 30m back in the summer, whilst paying 70% of his wage.
 
If he never plays another minute for us I wouldn't be that bothered. Says it all about how he's played for us since we joined that no ones panicking that he's being replaced by a 19 year old that has played less than 100 competitive minutes for us.

What a waste of talent and ability.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
What did ETH gain by calling out Sancho in public? He could have said he had a minor injury. This does not excuse Sancho's actions of course.
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Bring things to a head that had dragged on hidden behind closed doors.

More seriously though, why would he lie? He was asked a direct question, and I
it's really not a massive thing. He simply said His performances didn't warrant selection for that week. Happens, what's the big deal? He even made the point that he has to choose between many players.

I honestly don't know what some folks on here are looking for from the manager. Managers can say players haven't performed to standard, whether in training or in a game, and they do.
 
the_cliff said:
If he never plays another minute for us I wouldn't be that bothered. Says it all about how he's played for us since we joined that no ones panicking that he's being replaced by a 19 year old that has played less than 100 competitive minutes for us.

What a waste of talent and ability.
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feck that.. What a waste of £150m
 
Dve said:
I think he'd just had it with Sancho and didn't care to hold back when asked. If nothing else, he got to demonstrate what happens if you cross the line.
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Most likely. And also very frustrated after the loss. Was bound to happen sooner or later.
 
Winrar said:
I agree. The squad has been struggling with disciplinary problems for too long and someone had to rip off the bandaids soon or later.

It's not pleasant seeing one controversy after another with our club's name in it, but I believe it's a necessary pain.
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100% agree here
 
Club should never have signed him. Came in as a left winger who was expected to play from the right. As with so many players shoved out on the right it hasn’t worked. That’s the biggest scandal. United haven’t had a RW since Valencia.
 
Feck him. He's been average at best since arriving. Certainly hasn't shown any indication there's a world class talent in there. So either he's unprofessional, or he's just not good enough. Or both. Either way, goodbye.
 
Josep Dowling said:
Club should never have signed him. Came in as a left winger who was expected to play from the right. As with so many players shoved out on the right it hasn’t worked. That’s the biggest scandal. United haven’t had a RW since Valencia.
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Don't think that is accurate.
 
Judas said:
Players are far too protected if what Ten Hag said counts as a pop.
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It beggars belief. No wonder the world is full of entitled overgrown children. "I can turn up late, not give my all in training, and it's your job to lie to the press to protect my ego". What a load of nonsense. Why on earth should EtH have to do that?
 
RedDevil@84 said:
It wasn't even a pop. Managers usually use the "dropped due to tactical reasons" excuse . Jose would have been more direct.
Or if you were Guardiola, wouldn't even say anything, the player would just vanish.
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Unsure now, but didn't Pep say Kalvin Phillips was unfit at one point?
 
nickm said:
This rebuild has to be built on the right culture and principles. If we finish outside the top 4 this season because ETH had to clear house, then so be it. The one consistent line you can draw across the post fergie years, is we didn't sign enough players with fight and commitment. It has to stop, and the ones who are left have to go.
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That's true but ETH has already made enough first team signings to orchestrate the development of his own first 11. The vast majority of players that featured or were signed by other managers has diminished.

Sancho does indeed have a small time mentality but this instance isn't repetitive throughout this current squad enough to warrant a poor season. If United finish outside of a European spot, the individual who will be under the most pressure is the manager not the players.

ETH out of all coaches this last decade is certainly the most significant in terms of going in the right perceivable direction (managerially) but he's still got just as much to prove as some of these players before he's allocated such credit.
 
do.ob said:
Is #freeJadon trending yet?
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Only amongst his family and friends.

The kid is talented. He just doesn't have the mentality that seems to be necessary in the EPL. It's like he thinks he's magically going to dribble around everyone and be free in on goal...but doesn't know what to do when he's confronted with the fact that this isn't the case. He just dribbles into trouble constantly and doesn't know how to get out of it. Not sure what to do with him at this point (or Antony but not because of his current legal troubles). I think they're going to have to try and sell him in January at what's definitely going to be another significant loss.
 
pocco said:
Because we end up with this mess?
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There is no mess, as far as Sancho is concerned. It feels like one because media knows that only United stories sell and hence keep churning United news and creating a big "CRISIS" news every time something happens.
 
Sandikan said:
I remember watching Sancho for England in his Dortmund days, expecting a wonderkid and seeing some half paced pass back to the passer merchant.
Everyone else said he was smashing the German league up though, so I was still hopeful of a great player when we signed him.

Clearly bought for the right wing, we then found out he's not particularly good out there, but then he's now shown much in any other position. A few goals and assists every few months, but never looking particularly hard working, passionate or like he can beat someone.

What a shame. To be filed in the failed transfer locker with so many others, and no doubt an expensive loss again when we loan him back to Germany in January and then hope to get about 30m back in the summer, whilst paying 70% of his wage.
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This is what I saw too. I mentioned it on the transfer thread at the time he concerned me that he would be a bust but everyone seemed so sure.
 
lex talionis said:
I haven't been following story minute by minute but it seems to me the hatchet must be buried. The manager had a public pop at Sancho, which was wrong, Sancho had his public pop at the manager, which was wrong and nothing is to be gained to having this drama continue to drag for weeks and months.
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No he did not. He was asked a question and he said he was left out because standards weren't being met, that's not having a pop. That's just stating fact.

Sancho is on big money and has never shown he was worth even a quarter of what was paid for him. If he wants to act like a cry baby because his manager doesn't think he works hard enough. So he can Bogarde his way through his massive contract. Then he's better off away from the first team squad.
 
pocco said:
Because we end up with this mess? He didn't need to make this public.
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What's the mess? Yes there's drama in the press, but if it affirms the manager's standards among the players, might that not be better for us on the pitch and in the long term?
Would it be better if standards kept slipping and we kept hiding it?
I for one and please EtH has forced a reckoning either way
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
What did ETH gain by calling out Sancho in public? He could have said he had a minor injury. This does not excuse Sancho's actions of course.
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Dealing behind close door eh? Didn't work last season, didn't work for Ole.
Even Ole called United players 'snowflakes' publicly, not as manager but point still stands.
At some point, you have to accept club needs to be ruthless to move away from 10 years mismanagement.
 
Sandikan said:
I remember watching Sancho for England in his Dortmund days, expecting a wonderkid and seeing some half paced pass back to the passer merchant.
Everyone else said he was smashing the German league up though, so I was still hopeful of a great player when we signed him.

Clearly bought for the right wing, we then found out he's not particularly good out there, but then he's now shown much in any other position. A few goals and assists every few months, but never looking particularly hard working, passionate or like he can beat someone.

What a shame. To be filed in the failed transfer locker with so many others, and no doubt an expensive loss again when we loan him back to Germany in January and then hope to get about 30m back in the summer, whilst paying 70% of his wage.
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Indeed. The way the cafe pined after him was crazy in hindsight. Woeful signing, a player with no passion or drive.
 
I kinda like Sancho to be honest but I see a lot of complaints about ETH calling him out in public. We saw Pep do the same thing last season with Phillips. I don’t see the problem. These are professional athletes, their job is to stay in shape and play football. If you’re not up to the task, I have no problem with you being called out. It seems like he rakes in the cash and doesn’t want to put in the work, I have no problem with that as long as it’s not at Old Trafford.

I’m sure he can be very productive in the right system and/or league but it seems like this isn’t the place for him to reach his potential. Sancho trains soft and plays soft. He needs to up the tempo or leave.
 
fallengt said:
Dealing behind close door eh? Didn't work last season, didn't work for Ole.
Even Ole called United players 'snowflakes' publicly, not as manager but point still stands.
At some point, you have to accept club needs to be ruthless to move away from 10 years mismanagement.
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I think this is it. We have played softly softly for years, and where has it gotten us? Constant leaks, unrest and open disrespect almost annually at this point. There's no doubt we have recruited some bad eggs, but not dealing with it has fostered an atmosphere that is potentially polluting even the right minded when they come. The fact several managers have now called it out, and yet they are the ones to take the fall, is pretty illuminating. Clearly the policy of the club has been previously to back the money / assets over the manager and what is the right thing to do. Potentially we even tried to do it with Greenwood (although supposedly ETH was aligned).

The fact that ETH has been allowed to deal with Ronaldo and now Sancho this way is hopefully, hopefully, a sign that the club management are prepared to try to tackle this head on and actually take whatever pain is necessary to get the poison out. For ETH sake this needs to work, or else ultimately he will fall to the same issue. Obviously if new owners come in who can fund the bad attitude clear out it can be handled more quickly. It's encouraging, and it will be interesting to see the body language of the team on Saturday to see how hard they are working and if any of them have taken this on board.
 
Josep Dowling said:
Club should never have signed him. Came in as a left winger who was expected to play from the right. As with so many players shoved out on the right it hasn’t worked. That’s the biggest scandal. United haven’t had a RW since Valencia.
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If you are going to be captain hindsight, at least get the facts right first.
 
pocco said:
Because we end up with this mess? He didn't need to make this public.
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Rashford was dropped for a match in the middle of the form of his life for being late one time.

He took it on the chin and continued to kick onwards and carry us through the business end of the season.

Garnacho was having questions with his attitude after breaking through and scoring big goals then was dropped from the team for a few weeks. He responded by training hard and keeping his head down and now he's a big part of the attack at 19 years old.

AWB was basically frozen out of the team the first half of the season last year and faced nothing but questions regarding his future in the managers plans yet he kept grafting and working hard on improving in training without quit and fully grabbed his chance by the neck to the point that he became undroppable, keeping the RB that we've commited to for the near future with an extension, on the bench for large swaths simply off his outstanding form and effort/attitude.

Nothing the manager did, being asked a direct question and answering honestly after a frustrating loss, should've triggered a public statement challenging the manager and pulling a 'woe is me' after continiously struggling to kick on for 2 seasons prior under 3 separate managers...

The more you think about it, the more crazy Sancho's reaction is to me. He essentially called the manager a liar for basically asking him to up his level in training.

That's a normal requirement for players and especially the highest paid one in your squad...

Now we have this shit show when he could've easily been the unquestioned starter at this point given the Antony situation. It's truly ridiculous and I'm more than dissappointed given how much I've wanted him to succeed for us.
 
fallengt said:
Dealing behind close door eh? Didn't work last season, didn't work for Ole.
Even Ole called United players 'snowflakes' publicly, not as manager but point still stands.
At some point, you have to accept club needs to be ruthless to move away from 10 years mismanagement.
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The public laundry washing is not off to a good start either, at least not regarding Sancho but it might have positive effects on the rest of the squad if most players (and fans) are fed up with Sancho's attitude.
 
Trex said:
This will happen because Sancho has been frozen? Did you notice his absence when he missed 3 months last season? Sancho is hardly in ETH plans even now. He's third choice left winger. ETH prefers Bruno on the right over him as well as seen last season. His absence is insignificant.
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Seems like you are not actually reading my posts mate. No not because of the loss of Sancho in isolation, it seemed like ETH wanted 6 options for the front 3 this season. Garnacho, Rashford, Hojlund, possibly Greenwood (as we didn't sign another striker), Antony and Sancho. Of those 6 we've most likely lost 3 (one I agreed with) for the season, it's September and we've only played 4 games.

We're already playing a make shift defence because of a defensive injury crisis and we're now one attacking injury away from playing a make shift attack as well from the looks of it.

Fun times.
 
Jeffthered said:
That's my point, ETH needs to be careful. It should not be a public matter and this needs to be made clear to him. Shut the issue down. I'm not saying ETH is 'soft' with players, I am saying that this is looking shabby, and he needs to shut this down. Because this will reflect on him. (ETH)

Sancho does not warrant the attention he is getting. Man Utd have nothing to prove to Sancho. People have short memories, the club supported Sancho through his recent 'mental health' issues.
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I was largely agreeing mate. It shouldn't have beenmade public, perhaps Ten Hag needs some more media training. Being manager of Manchester United any off the cuff remark can be spun into an ongoing drama.
 
TrueRed79 said:
Completely disagree. It clearly hasn't worked in private. We only know the gist of what's going on. I am sure there is way more to this that we know. ETH isn't just going to randomly say that. It would've been clearly thought out. I would go as far to say he might have consulted his closest confidants within the setup before going public. They have not got the reaction they were hoping for out of Sancho. That's why, for me, he's done here.
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I admire your optimism mate.
 
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