Erik ten Hag vs Sancho | Sancho back in full training

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The Mitcher said:
It's the Bundesliga, though.
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That's such a lazy argument. Players can't be good in the Bundesliga?

Posted this earlier to put some perspective on how good he actually was in Germany and Europe before we bought him:

I don't think you understand how big a talent he is/was though.
"All he did was have a few good seasons in the bundesliga" (from wing or am positions, 18-21 years old):
18/19: 13 goals and 20 assists in 2967 minutes (1,00 G+A/90)
19/20: 20 goals and 20 assists in 3274 minutes (1,10 G+A/90)
20/21: 16 goals and 20 assists in 2974 minutes (1,09 G+A/90)

Those numbers are simply insane. Much better than KDB's (0,79 G+A/90), Son's (0,55 G+A/90) or Ozil's (0,76 G+A/90) numbers in Germany or Wirtz' (0,76 G+A/90) or Musiala (0,73 G+A/90)....honorable mentions Havertz (0,61 G+A/90) and Dembele (0,82 G+A/90)

I guess Real Madrid is happy they took a chance with a youngster from the Bundesliga as well....
 
troylocker said:
That's such a lazy argument. Players can't be good in the Bundesliga?

Posted this earlier to put some perspective on how good he actually was in Germany and Europe before we bought him:

I don't think you understand how big a talent he is/was though.
"All he did was have a few good seasons in the bundesliga" (from wing or am positions, 18-21 years old):
18/19: 13 goals and 20 assists in 2967 minutes (1,00 G+A/90)
19/20: 20 goals and 20 assists in 3274 minutes (1,10 G+A/90)
20/21: 16 goals and 20 assists in 2974 minutes (1,09 G+A/90)

Those numbers are simply insane. Much better than KDB's (0,79 G+A/90), Son's (0,55 G+A/90) or Ozil's (0,76 G+A/90) numbers in Germany or Wirtz' (0,76 G+A/90) or Musiala (0,73 G+A/90)....honorable mentions Havertz (0,61 G+A/90) and Dembele (0,82 G+A/90)

I guess Real Madrid is happy they took a chance with a youngster from the Bundesliga as well....
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Nobody is doubting his talent, it's his lack of application. Manchester United is harder to shine at right now, there is more scrutiny and it's always been talked about and criticized. You have to be able to handle adversity and be mentally strong as well as playing in a much more physical league (Not even saying harder but definitely more physical) and I don't think that suits him.

I have no doubt he is hugely talented but I don't think we will see the best of him in the premier league.
 
troylocker said:
That's such a lazy argument. Players can't be good in the Bundesliga?

Posted this earlier to put some perspective on how good he actually was in Germany and Europe before we bought him:

I don't think you understand how big a talent he is/was though.
"All he did was have a few good seasons in the bundesliga" (from wing or am positions, 18-21 years old):
18/19: 13 goals and 20 assists in 2967 minutes (1,00 G+A/90)
19/20: 20 goals and 20 assists in 3274 minutes (1,10 G+A/90)
20/21: 16 goals and 20 assists in 2974 minutes (1,09 G+A/90)

Those numbers are simply insane. Much better than KDB's (0,79 G+A/90), Son's (0,55 G+A/90) or Ozil's (0,76 G+A/90) numbers in Germany or Wirtz' (0,76 G+A/90) or Musiala (0,73 G+A/90)....honorable mentions Havertz (0,61 G+A/90) and Dembele (0,82 G+A/90)

I guess Real Madrid is happy they took a chance with a youngster from the Bundesliga as well....
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Why did he fail to translate that to the premier league if he's so good?
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
Nobody is doubting his talent, it's his lack of application. Manchester United is harder to shine at right now, there is more scrutiny and it's always been talked about and criticized. You have to be able to handle adversity and be mentally strong as well as playing in a much more physical league (Not even saying harder but definitely more physical) and I don't think that suits him.

I have no doubt he is hugely talented but I don't think we will see the best of him in the premier league.
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Manchester United has ALWAYS been like that. We've had many big players come over here and fail for decades, even pre-Fergie.
 
The Mitcher said:
Manchester United has ALWAYS been like that. We've had many big players come over here and fail for decades, even pre-Fergie.
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I don't disagree - It's not a normal club in that sense with the level of expectation and scrutiny around it you need the mental strength 100x over - Oddly Maguire/ Mctominay for me have it in spades they just aren't talented enough on top of that.
 
devilish said:
Sancho had hired the same PR team that represents Ronaldo, Varane, Rashford and 8 games in a season mason mount. Is it a coincidence that we had huge issues with every single one of them ?
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Maybe not, but what comes first? Is it possible that this PR team is well known for sorting out your problems at United and that players who have issues go to them? (I actually don't know, didn't bother to look that up, but genuinely interested)
 
devilish said:
I think that ETH fell in one of the oldest PR tricks in football.

A- a young player is signed on silly money and salary

B- it's evident early on that he lacks the attitude to succeed at top level. In fact he barely plays under Ole's regime

C- Eth comes in, clean sleet and all that. Sancho comes out with excuses which allowed him some breathing space (trip to Amsterdam yada)

D- At one point patience was set to run thin, Sancho would have had to deliver and some sort of narrative will need to be built to prepare the fans that he's leaving. Instead of playing to ETH's game were he accepts criticism, Sancho goes on the offensive. He blames the manager thus creating an alternative version of the argument. Maybe ETH is not good enough, maybe he mishandled him, maybe he was the unprofessional guy

E-Sancho leaves on loan to the club he wanted IE a club who couldn't afford him u less we pay most of his salary

Sancho had hired the same PR team that represents Ronaldo, Varane, Rashford and 8 games in a season mason mount. Is it a coincidence that we had huge issues with every single one of them ?
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What?!

A - Ok, we got him "cheap" because he was on his last year of his BVB-contract (valued between 90-130M his last 18 months there) and put up historically unbelievable numbers there.

B - What! Yes, he is immature and lazy, which is totally manageble. He starts (6) or comes in from the bench (8) in all but 3 of the matches with Ole in charge. In a period where our play turns to shit with Ronaldo coming in and taking over the show.

C / D / E - I guess his dream all along was to design a grand transfer to Manchester United and through old PR tricks fool ETH to freeze him out and and let him go back to his mother club on loan so he could.......what?!

The Mitcher said:
Why did he fail to translate that to the premier league if he's so good?
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That’s the big question, isn’t it? I hope the next management finds the answer.
 
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troylocker said:
What?!

A - Ok, we got him "cheap" because he was on his last year of his BVB-contract (valued between 90-130M his last 18 months there) and put up historically unbelievable numbers there.

B - What! Yes, he is immature and lazy, which is totally manageble. He starts (6) or comes in from the bench (8) in all but 3 of the matches with Ole in charge. In a period where our play turns to shit with Ronaldo coming in and taking over the show.

C / D / E - I guess his dream all along was to design a grand transfer to Manchester United and through old PR tricks fool ETH to freeze him out and and let him go back to his mother club on loan so he could.......what?!


That’s the big question, isn’t it? I hope the next management finds the answer.
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A- We got him expensive especially surrounding the salary

B- Ole signed Sancho for 73m on top of a 13m a year salary and yet he used him as a squad player. Its evident that there were issues between the two else he would have played.

C/D/E - That's not what I said. I am pretty sure that Sancho wanted this deal to work. However there's a huge difference between wanting something and doing all the sacrifices needed to actually achieve it. For example I want to have a six pack. However the only six pack I own is in the fridge waiting for our next bbq

Returning to football, there is huge money surrounding big football name signings. We're talking of hundreds of millions of pounds which include fee, salaries, PR money, sponsorships etc. When one of those deals fail miserably there are huge repercussions on everyone which in turn tend to kickstart some sort of blame game. Sancho knew that wasn't delivering enough to justify that salary and therefore he had all the time in the world to make sure that when shit hits fan he'll shift as much of the blame away from him as possible. No one wants to be remembered as the guy who bottled his chance at Manchester United.

This is not the first time that Sancho acted like a proper arse by placing his own interest first and on top of anything remotely ethical or professional.

"He should have come to training sessions but he didn’t come". “We offered the huge deal in the academy, in terms of salary, he was the [best] paid player in all the academy, and we shake our hands," added a frustrated Guardiola. “Before going to the States, he decide, or his manager decides, I am not going to sign the contract. And after that, the last two or three weeks, he didn’t appear at the training sessions"

Does that ring a bell to you? Is Pep Guardiola a bad manager as well?
 
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stefan92 said:
Maybe not, but what comes first? Is it possible that this PR team is well known for sorting out your problems at United and that players who have issues go to them? (I actually don't know, didn't bother to look that up, but genuinely interested)
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From what I read players tend to sign with these PR agencies out of their own free will and without having to ask for any permission to the club. The club and the players are usually on the same page so most of the time these PR teams are doing us a favor by cleaning the mess on their player's behalf. However what happens when the aims of the club and these PR agency clients aren't aligned? What happens if let's say there's an employee (ex manager) whose pushing one or two of these clients out of the club? Will these PR teams act professional and stay out of it all or would they do their job and fight back?
 
devilish said:
A- We got him expensive especially surrounding the salary

B- Ole signed Sancho for 73m on top of a 13m a year salary and yet he used him as a squad player. Its evident that there were issues between the two else he would have played.

C/D/E - That's not what I said. I am pretty sure that Sancho wanted this deal to work. However there's a huge difference between wanting something and doing all the sacrifices needed to actually achieve it. For example I want to have a six pack. However the only six pack I own is in the fridge waiting for our next bbq

Returning to football, there is huge money surrounding big football name signings. We're talking of hundreds of millions of pounds which include fee, salaries, PR money, sponsorships etc. When one of those deals fail miserably there are huge repercussions on everyone which in turn tend to kickstart some sort of blame game. Sancho knew that wasn't delivering enough to justify that salary and therefore he had all the time in the world to make sure that when shit hits fan he'll shift as much of the blame away from him as possible. No one wants to be remembered as the guy who bottled his chance at Manchester United.

This is not the first time that Sancho acted like a proper arse by placing his own interest first and on top of anything remotely ethical or professional.

"He should have come to training sessions but he didn’t come". “We offered the huge deal in the academy, in terms of salary, he was the [best] paid player in all the academy, and we shake our hands," added a frustrated Guardiola. “Before going to the States, he decide, or his manager decides, I am not going to sign the contract. And after that, the last two or three weeks, he didn’t appear at the training sessions"

Does that ring a bell to you? Is Pep Guardiola a bad manager as well?
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I actually didn't know this. He surely wanted to play first team football sooner rather than later.
Not showing up in training is unacceptable, but I refuse to believe it's impossible to educate these young players somehow in what is expected from them and what is needed from them to be and become good professionals.
 
troylocker said:
I actually didn't know this. He surely wanted to play first team football sooner rather than later.
Not showing up in training is unacceptable, but I refuse to believe it's impossible to educate these young players somehow in what is expected from them and what is needed from them to be and become good professionals.
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One thing is young players. Other thing is young players that make many more millions than those trying to educate them?

Sir Alex could get to his players because he is the big boss.
 
troylocker said:
I actually didn't know this. He surely wanted to play first team football sooner rather than later.
Not showing up in training is unacceptable, but I refuse to believe it's impossible to educate these young players somehow in what is expected from them and what is needed from them to be and become good professionals.
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When Sancho took a 'football break' I said that unless he recovers quickly then this will end very badly. Needless to say that I was heavily criticized for it and called all sort of names. I confess that the criticism was fair as I should have been more sensitive about the issue. In the end I was unfortunately right though.

Football is a business and players are an investment. When a club invest 72m into a player (+ 13m in salary per year) then it expects a quick ROI out of that deal. If that deal doesn't go smoothly then things will degenerate very quickly as no one likes to pay top dollar to get nothing. That's why the high earners such as Rashford, Sancho and Maguire are more likely to be on the firing line then someone like Malacia or Lindelof. I very much doubt that the club was willing to pay 13m a year on someone who needs 'education' on how to come to training on time and regularly.

Back in the 90s the Sancho deal would have been dealt quickly and efficiently without anyone noticing what's going on. The guy would end up face to face with SAF and the latter would scare the crap out of him. If that didn't change the player then he would end up being sold. Unfortunately that's not the case anymore. Players are surround themselves with people (doctors, agents, PR teams) who are specialized in putting their client's interest first The club has his own PR image to take care of as well so things had to be done in a certain way as well. Because of that its not uncommon for players to outsmart the manager or even the club.

Finally I assure you that certainly character traits are impossible to change. Back in my days my favourite non Manchester United player was Roberto Baggio. The guy was so professional and he had more talent in his right toe then all our current squad put together. Yet he was the typical small club player. Baggio needed his manager and his mates to constantly remind him of how important he was for them. That could be done at clubs like Brescia and Fiorentina were he was the top dog among players who were clearly inferior to him. Unfortunately at top club level every player had his own ego which made Baggio feel unsecure. That was a problem because whenever Baggio didn't felt the 'love' then his paranoia would kickstart and he started seeing enemies that only existed inside his own head.



.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
I don't disagree - It's not a normal club in that sense with the level of expectation and scrutiny around it you need the mental strength 100x over - Oddly Maguire/ Mctominay for me have it in spades they just aren't talented enough on top of that.
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That’s a great comparison, for me those guys know they have to work harder to compensate for a perceived lack of talent, whereas Sancho has the talent and just won’t work harder. Whether it’s been ingrained in him that he’s so naturally talented he believes he doesn’t need to work hard.

If Sancho had Rooneys work rate and mentality he would be a fantastic player, instead he’s got Pogbas mentality and work rate, great talent but sadly wasted potential never fully realised
 
Teja said:
https://strettynews.com/2024/05/30/...source=rsn&utm_medium=rsn&utm_campaign=gac085

Some more info although I'm not sure I follow what he's saying. Was he being late / being poor in training and refusing to apologize?
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He's saying that if he says sorry, then it's admitting it's true. Clearly he felt it wasn't the case for him to flat out refuse. I think there's more to this story based on reaction of other players who seemed to support Sancho. The mention of double standards makes me think other players had done things and Ten Hag turned a blind eye.
 
pocco said:
He's saying that if he says sorry, then it's admitting it's true. Clearly he felt it wasn't the case for him to flat out refuse. I think there's more to this story based on reaction of other players who seemed to support Sancho. The mention of double standards makes me think other players had done things and Ten Hag turned a blind eye.
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That kinda makes sense but isn't it a simple adult conversation to have? Football is filled with drama queens. How hard is it to say - I was late twice and you're expecting an apology from me whereas this other guy was late twice and you're looking the other way?

On the flip side, if he was consistently late and still thinks he did nothing wrong then something's wrong in his head.
 
Sounds like he's focusing only on his own image, and putting that above the desire to get back into the team and play football for Manchester United. An apology, public or not isn't going to stay in the news for longer than a day - but this public spat has. We longed for a coach who does not quiver to player power and when we got one it seems like everyone has sided with the player once again. The situation annoys me to be honest, but I side with the manager on this one.
 
There was that Europa League game where Sancho was hooked at half time following an absolutely appalling effort at tracking back which resulted in a goal conceded. Some of his effort at times makes Rashford look like prime Park ji Sung and unlike Rashford he didn't have the stats in goals and assists to back it up with.
 
Cypriot said:
Sounds like he's focusing only on his own image, and putting that above the desire to get back into the team and play football for Manchester United. An apology, public or not isn't going to stay in the news for longer than a day - but this public spat has. We longed for a coach who does not quiver to player power and when we got one it seems like everyone has sided with the player once again. The situation annoys me to be honest, but I side with the manager on this one.
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Exactly.
Another workshy sulky player is not what is needed in the squad. We’ve had years of several of those and I’ve had enough of them.
 
Cypriot said:
Sounds like he's focusing only on his own image, and putting that above the desire to get back into the team and play football for Manchester United. An apology, public or not isn't going to stay in the news for longer than a day - but this public spat has. We longed for a coach who does not quiver to player power and when we got one it seems like everyone has sided with the player once again. The situation annoys me to be honest, but I side with the manager on this one.
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I think most of the fanbase has been on EtH's side for this one hasn't it. If we had had half a decent season he wouldn't be talked about nearly as much.
 
"I ain’t apologising because if I do, I’m apologising for being lazy, always being late, not giving my best. That’s what I’m apologising for”.

But you are fecking lazy. There is plenty of evidence of it with people's own eyes.

He's a twat and thankfully we'll be rid of him this summer.
 
No surprise the usual suspects from the ETH thread who clearly have an agenda against him (and I'm not even ETH in myself) are in here trying to justify Sancho's indiscipline and laziness.
 
I'm happy to see the back of Sancho. Like Antony, he is a player who only comes to life in the final 3rd. But to be a successful winger in this current era, you need do other stuff, like tracking back, winning the ball in your own half, pressing like crazy, supporting the full back when he is in a two v one situation. And you have to be fast and as fit as a fiddle, to constantly go end to end for 90 minutes.

Sancho is the sort of player you only want to give the ball to on the edge of the oppositions box. That is what you call a luxury type player in this modern era. I think Garnacho fits the current criteria of a modern winger/forward.

It is clear to see that Sancho is more suited to the style of German football, than the relentless intensity of the PL. He can still be decent for someone, just not suited to what we need. In many ways.
 
Where does McCarthy or anyone else say that Ten Hag demanded a public apology?

He specifically said “Ten Hag only wanted an apology”.

Sancho was late to training and criticised for poor training when he was at Dortmund the first time round. He was bitching to the press then too, claiming he was humiliated/scapegoated/unprotected by the club and used it to angle for a move away.

Then his training was criticised by Southgate, the softest man in England. A man who hasn’t wanted him near a squad in ages.

Then it was Ole, and then Ragnick, and now Ten Hag - who went above and beyond to help the kid with his issues during his first year in charge.

People need to give their heads a wobble the second the thought of defending Sancho or slagging Ten Hag for this crosses their minds.

There are so many legitimate routes you can take to criticise this manager, but this is not one of them.
 
Interesting that McCarthy contract is up this summer, I wonder if we keep ten Hag that we'll look at shaking up the coaching staff as there will be two slots available as Ramsey left earlier this season.
 
Wheato said:
I'm happy to see the back of Sancho. Like Antony, he is a player who only comes to life in the final 3rd. But to be a successful winger in this current era, you need do other stuff, like tracking back, winning the ball in your own half, pressing like crazy, supporting the full back when he is in a two v one situation. And you have to be fast and as fit as a fiddle, to constantly go end to end for 90 minutes.

Sancho is the sort of player you only want to give the ball to on the edge of the oppositions box. That is what you call a luxury type player in this modern era. I think Garnacho fits the current criteria of a modern winger/forward.

It is clear to see that Sancho is more suited to the style of German football, than the relentless intensity of the PL. He can still be decent for someone, just not suited to what we need. In many ways.
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Sancho and Antony have done a lot of things at Man Utd, and coming alive in the final third is not one of them.
 
diarm said:
Where does McCarthy or anyone else say that Ten Hag demanded a public apology?

He specifically said “Ten Hag only wanted an apology”.

Sancho was late to training and criticised for poor training when he was at Dortmund the first time round. He was bitching to the press then too, claiming he was humiliated/scapegoated/unprotected by the club and used it to angle for a move away.

Then his training was criticised by Southgate, the softest man in England. A man who hasn’t wanted him near a squad in ages.

Then it was Ole, and then Ragnick, and now Ten Hag - who went above and beyond to help the kid with his issues during his first year in charge.

People need to give their heads a wobble the second the thought of defending Sancho or slagging Ten Hag for this crosses their minds.

There are so many legitimate routes you can take to criticise this manager, but this is not one of them.
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He also only wanted an apology for Sancho’s social media post too, not for being lazy. Just a stupid situation all round.
 
I am surprised that the odds of him either staying at United in September or signing for Dortmund are exactly the same with certain bookies. I guess that's due to his astronomical wages.
 
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