His target was top 4 and Rene Hake just confirmed that. That's not a Manchester United manager. Regardless of the situation we are in, the plan should be the title eventually.
Erik ten Hag | Currently unemployed
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to celebrate rare back-to-back victories for Manchester United! They analyse the late win in the Europa League vs. Rangers and then try and find things to analyse in a pretty dour game vs. Fulham. They also chat about the latest Marcus Rashford news, and look at the latest transfer news.
Summer 2022: Malacia, Martinez, Eriksen, Casemiro, Antony. Malacia was for 15M and was solid in his first season, will probably be sold but that transfer wasn't harmful at that price. Trouble was his big injury but now I hope he'll be good enough to sell him for a decent see next summer. Martinez was great in his first season, then injured next one and currently not that great though obviously has his strenghts. Even if we want to sell, club will get a good fee for him. Eriksen was a good signing as he came for free, no complaints. Casemiro transfer a huge fee for a 30 year old and as good as he was in his first season, not so good since. Not so sure if it was a mistake as it brought us top 4 and a trophy that season but don't think we'll go for 30 year old Real Madrid players in the future after Varane and Casemiro transfers. Antony was obviously an expensive mistake and ten Hag's worst transfer, one of the reasons he deserved the sack because it's too bad to look away. Sabitzer was a solid loan and Weghorst not so much but he was useful in few games (including Carabao Cup final).
Summer 2023: Hojlund, Mount, Onana, Bayindir, Evans. Hojlund is still only 21 so time will tell. Mount at 64M given his injuries is a costly mistake atm and also luxury signing given we didn't fix the defensive/central midfielder position that summer with Fred leaving. Onana hasn't been a disaster but you can't tell it's a great signing either. For 50M it's possible we could've gotten better/less error prone goalkepeer. Bayindir not great but a backup keeper so not that important. Evans free signing and so reliable most of the times. Reguilon was an okay loan but injury prone and Amrabat not used enough but was good for us against Chelsea at home and in the cup final.
Summer 2024: not sure if ten Hag had same influence at transfers as before but it's also too early to say. Yoro seems to be really talented, Ugarte looking good, de Ligt mostly good, Mazraoui so far player of the season with Amad. Zirkzee is the one that feels like a miss but even it that is the case I'm sure we can sell for good amount of money. He was paid 42,5 million euros, we can get most of that next summer if club decides to sell.
For me Antony and Mount transfers look the worst of all. Antony was obvious reasons and Mount with his injury troubles and him being attacking midfielder like Bruno when we all wanted a DM/CM after Fred left. Zirkzee is the 3rd worst atm as he's not even a proper striker and we needed an established striker besides Hojlund.
Summer 2023: Hojlund, Mount, Onana, Bayindir, Evans. Hojlund is still only 21 so time will tell. Mount at 64M given his injuries is a costly mistake atm and also luxury signing given we didn't fix the defensive/central midfielder position that summer with Fred leaving. Onana hasn't been a disaster but you can't tell it's a great signing either. For 50M it's possible we could've gotten better/less error prone goalkepeer. Bayindir not great but a backup keeper so not that important. Evans free signing and so reliable most of the times. Reguilon was an okay loan but injury prone and Amrabat not used enough but was good for us against Chelsea at home and in the cup final.
Summer 2024: not sure if ten Hag had same influence at transfers as before but it's also too early to say. Yoro seems to be really talented, Ugarte looking good, de Ligt mostly good, Mazraoui so far player of the season with Amad. Zirkzee is the one that feels like a miss but even it that is the case I'm sure we can sell for good amount of money. He was paid 42,5 million euros, we can get most of that next summer if club decides to sell.
For me Antony and Mount transfers look the worst of all. Antony was obvious reasons and Mount with his injury troubles and him being attacking midfielder like Bruno when we all wanted a DM/CM after Fred left. Zirkzee is the 3rd worst atm as he's not even a proper striker and we needed an established striker besides Hojlund.
Thanks for excellent squad building and installing a proper culture at the club, good call to back him with 600m
There are actually some on here who think his signings were a step towards improving the culture of the club. Laughable
We’ve assembled the worst Utd squad I’ve ever seen under his watch to the tune of £600m! He may have won us two cups but we’re further away from challenging for a league now than we were when he first walked through the door, which is staggering considering we were on a six year trophy drought before he arrived.
Hake:
This guys going to be like Muelensteen with his stories, this is the second interview I've seen him do in a month.
Does everyone around Erik drink the same fecking cool aid as he does and just turn incompetent or are they incompetent to begin with?
Trying to distance himself from Erik so he can get a job. He was a manager before everything went to shit at United.
Nah, Rene has more currency with journos having been SAF's guy.
I just think it's interesting that he's distancing ETH from a lot of the signings. And he's pointing to the 40 scouts. 40 scouts. 40 scouts. Did we just have them all and absolutely no one to coordinate?
I would expect better having 40 scouts. How many scouts do Brighton have?
Apart from Marauoi and probably in the end De Ligt, there isn’t a single signing under ETH anyone could really argue was an outstanding acquisition.
It's crazy how far Lisandro has fallen
We can have all the scouts we want but it’s the managers call who we go for. Also he doesn’t necessarily mean 40 scouts. The team prolly includes performance and data analysts as well. It will be different going forward cause there is so more of a structure around the club.
But this guy is just sticking up for his shit boss by saying what he is saying. It’s more damning on Erik that we had all these people and yet just signed his previous players.
Crazy indeed. He had a great spell between his horrid start and the injuries, but he’s looking more and more like a defender actually isn’t up the physical challenge of the PL, as was claimed by his critics in the first place, and is better suited to Serie A or La Liga.
It's like a different person. Since his injury he has looked very poor. An unreal drop off.
Sounds fishy.
The stuff about the transfers is just so annoying, you don't buy Martinez, Antony, De Ligt, Onana, Malacia, Weghorst, Mazraoui, Zirkzee, and try and buy De Jong, Arnautovic, Timber, etc, and then try and claim Ten Hag wasn't single handedly orchestrating it.
Yes a few have been capable to a certain to degree, but non of them have really improved us, and of the ones Hake mentioned only Mazraoui looks good value for money.
Ten Hag shouldn't have been allowed to buy all these players, but he has at least been able to prove what a bad judge he is of a player, just a shame it'll be Amorim who is made to suffer for it.
Yes a few have been capable to a certain to degree, but non of them have really improved us, and of the ones Hake mentioned only Mazraoui looks good value for money.
Ten Hag shouldn't have been allowed to buy all these players, but he has at least been able to prove what a bad judge he is of a player, just a shame it'll be Amorim who is made to suffer for it.
I'm not saying what he says isn't self-serving. Of course it is. But I don't think Eriksen and Casemiro were anything other than club purchases, as was Varane and Ronaldo before that.
And the scouts, I remember Woodward boasting about how many scouts we have. And I'm sure a lot of them are absolutely top class, but without the required structure it is wasted potential. Hopefully that changes a lot now that we've got an actual footballing structure. Adnan has gone into this on here quite a bit, the roles of particular staff members, how those roles have changed, who reports to whom, etc. It's been total chaos.
How on earth is this damning on eth??? A managers job is to perform GIVEN the squad he has.. Its not the managers job to build the squad and to scout players he is not working with on a dailly basis.. Everyone has preferences, also ETH, but if a clubs allows the manager to spend millions on transfers while overrulling scouts, thats fully 100% on the club and the horribly led football organization.. The whole "Klopp wanted Brandt but got Salah" is a perfect example of how a sustainable club is ran..
Its 100% on United if we allowed eth to brings his own players.. How on earth is he supposed to have detailed info on players he hasnt worked with? He came straight from Ajax where he was 100% responsible for getting the best results with his current team, and immediately continued to United where he was 100% expected to work.with the squad om the pitch on day 1.. You have DoFs to focus on building the squad the manager has to work with..
Ofcourse managers can voice opinions, but this whole 'club transfer' vs 'manager transfer' is such bullshit.. And IF a club allows for a manager to bring in own players and overruling scouts, thats 100% the fault of the club and 0% fault of the manager.
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So you’re saying our scouting department never gave him any info on any other players in his time here? We barely signed players who hadn’t played under him. The only option there is he rejected them and only favored players he knew even though….here is the kicker….he said he couldn’t play the system he played at Ajax. Also I never said it’s only ETHs fault. We obviously are to blame for not only indulging an idiot but also for getting the idiot who ever he wanted.
My point is the manager is not and should not be responsible and accountable for recruitment.. And if the organization is so messed up the manager does have signigicant impact, its not the managers fault or flaw if he fecks up, as he is always expected to focus 100% at the squad at hand in stead of extensively be involved at scouting or recuitment.... This is a sign of an immature organization.
It always only makes sense when you ask manager for input he falls back on players he knows, because - given that like eth they have always been full time manager - where would he find the time to in-depth scout and assess players he doesnt know personally.
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ETH requested control over transfers in his contract and refused to give it up during the negotiations last summer, hence the +1 year option being activated instead.
A well organized and self respecting club should never ever allow that.. Should be a very large red flag for hiring a manager if you ask me..
I remember being so excited when he joined. I thought we'd finally got a proper manager in and that we finally had some hope on the horizon.
2 years and over 600m spent later and we're worse than ever.
Sigh.
2 years and over 600m spent later and we're worse than ever.
Sigh.
Same here. I thought that he’d be the one who would finally be able to turn it around. How wrong I was.
He started well. Made some tough decisions and got us playing good football. Then we had a wobble, the pressure piled on and he went conservative from there on out. Same thing that's happened to most of our managers.
Antony and Mount made little sense to me, though with Antony mostly to pay that much, and it's tainted extra by him performing so far below expectations. Mount I could sort of see the idea, but he was already injury prone, inconsistent and it seemed like at least someone saw him as an option for a more playmaking CM to alternate with or replace Eriksen.
Casemiro's huge drop off was unexpected, Malacia being out for... 18 months also. Lisandro being inconsistent after an injury is not that weird, and I want to say Shaw's unavailability was bad luck... if we didn't follow his career for over 10 years now.
Zirkzee hasn't shown it, or enough of it, but his signing was my favorite so far. Hope he still makes it, but in an Amorim system I don't know if he'll be able to develop as a false 9. But if it helps his overall/direct productivity, it could be good for his career in the long run. Just hope this and his next destinations won't have him be asked to become a different player. But players like Gravenberch this season, and probably many players before, show that much depends on how a manager perceives a player and they way they could fit in and boost the team.
Think for now Zirkzee is at the wrong place at the wrong time. If Bruno, Rashford/Garnacho and Amad were in great form behind/around him, he could have worked better before his confidence dropped too low. Hope he will get out stronger, but these are also the moments that make or break a career for many big prospects. But either they will reinvent or reinvigorate themselves... or the drop off becomes their new (or actual) standard. We will see, and hopefull we will see him shine. Beautiful player if he gets going and if he clicks with his team. But if you want him as your main goalscorer, you didn't get the right striker - not for now. You'd be better off trying him next to Hojlund and then have one of (or both of) Amad and Bruno (in form) behind him. You need more goalscorers if you want a "playmaking" striker. They're not all Messi and even he had two of Eto'o, Villa, Pedro, Krkic, Henry, Neymar, Suarez, and even Ibrahimovic beside him, not even mentioning the playmaking powerhouses behind him.
But just looking at the buys, not the numbers, only Mount is the odd one out for me. They all had a plan that made some sense to at least some plans. His transfer looked more like a desperation move to me, yes even without the mass budget allocated to his transfer. Was Bruno flirting with a move away and did they just spin it to a 4-1-2-3 plan later?
But:
Onana, especially after his Inter CL run just looked like an excellent boost in control and composure from the back.
Bayindir, honestly don't know him at all, but I guess Suzuki didn't want to be second/third choice and I guess he was also seen as a decent backup talent in the goal?
Mazraoui was very available and a very technical and versatile fullback, and he has already shown to be capable of more than even just that.
Yoro looked (and looks) like a good future for the RCB
De Ligt was available for a good price for someone in his category, younger and possibly more solid than Maguire (to be seen), and Yoro was out while the market was still open.
Evans was available, for cheap, and with all the injuries and the limited budget, a good option that would probably accept being 6th CB more than almost any other option thinkable would have. Turns out he was 2nd option much more often, leading us to need to call upon a 7th. Talk about double coverage...
Lisandro was hard to deny after his first season, now people doubt whether that was a purple patch now
Malacia was a good stand-in for Shaw, before he got his new status as the ghost of old trafford.
Casemiro, especially after missing out on FDJ reeked of desperation, but after his rough start was a huge force leading to a pretty solid ETH debut season all-in-all, so getting the experienced anchor man (though who turned out more of a box-to-box here in many games) looked like a good move.
Eriksen beside him to control the play was pretty excellent. Obviously not a pick for many seasons in a row, but was an easy choice to get - especially free like he was.
Mount makes no sense to me, but perhaps they saw him as a good replacement to Eriksen, a cover to Bruno, and perhaps an option out wide, too? But while possibly overrated, and at the least injury prone and inconsistent, it's not like he was a talentless player, showing plenty of class during his spells at Chelsea and Vitesse, still.
Ugarte, especially after Casemiro's second season, was just a good option to get to get some more defensive power in the midfield. Don't know if he was the best option, but again, the availability was there and the profile was there, too.
Antony -ignoring the price- wasn't the best winger in the world, and I don't think he looked like he would become it, either. But, he was the star of a strong Ajax in 21-22, showed his class in big games, including the CL, and was pretty good for Brazil as well, being a starter more often than not. On a scout report he would be a solid option on the right wing, with good stamina, work rate, dribbling skills and an increasing productivity that looked like it hadn't reached its peak. It made sense - not a 100m deal sense - the profile looked good and like he could fill the spot to a more reliable level than Sancho did.
Hojlund is a talent. Quite strong and fast and looking like a solid goal scorer with more experience. Bit of a gamble at the time, but looked like a gamble based on putting in a lot of scouting work that needed to look at more than just the numbers of his debut season, but rather how he got there, and where this path could lead to later.
Zirkzee another talent and one of the best players in Serie A last season, and that as a not very prolific striker in a league known for its efficiency (don't know whether that assessment is based on fact, but you take what you can get).
During that tenure we saw the (relative) breakthroughs of Amad, Garnacho and Mainoo, to a lesser extent Dalot and the end of the first ETH-season saw quite the resurgence of AWB as well (I actually miss him, though last season was not good, so...) But if we count those first three among the transfers we get a pretty solid squad already, and that's without counting Bruno, Rashford, Shaw, who were/are arguably either our best players or carriers during the 22-23 season.
| Onana (Bayindir) | ||||||
| Mazraoui | De Ligt (Yoro) | Lisandro (Evans) | Malacia | |||
| Casemiro (Ugarte) | Eriksen (Mainoo) | |||||
| Antony (Amad) | Mount | |||||
| Zirkzee | Hojlund (Garnacho) |
| Onana | ||||||
| Mazraoui | De Ligt | Lisandro | Malacia | |||
| Casemiro | ||||||
| Eriksen | Mount | |||||
| Amad | Hojlund | Garnacho |
| Onana | ||||||
| Yoro | De Ligt | Licha | ||||
| Mazraoui | Malacia | |||||
| Ugarte | Mainoo | |||||
| Mount | ||||||
| Hojlund | Zirkzee |
| Onana | ||||||
| Mazraoui | Yoro | Licha | Malacia | |||
| Casemiro | ||||||
| Eriksen | Mainoo | |||||
| Mount | ||||||
| Zirkzee | Hojlund |
| Onana | ||||||
| Mazraoui | Yoro | Licha | Malacia | |||
| Eriksen | Mainoo | |||||
| Amad | Mount | Garnacho | ||||
| Zirkzee |
etc etc
Whether and who bought whom exactly doesn't matter, but this squad shouldn't have done as badly as it did, even if the players all underperformed.
These options and various 4-3-3s/4-2-3-1s and some 3CB options all look good on paper and most of these still look like they could make for a good squad, but the fitness wasn't there for the original ETH plans, and the match-ups aren't quite there yet for Amorim. Doesn't help that Bruno lost form, that Rashford threw away another shot at redemption and becoming a United icon. Nor does it that Shaw and Malacia just disappeared and that the other heroes of that first season (Licha and Casemiro) got you thinking that first season was just a dream.
But the transfers weren't all that bad... but financially speaking the scouts or the directors or ETH (or whatever combination) should have done better to at least lower the price for Antony and Mount. Now you've got like 170 contracts million sitting there, hoping that you can get maybe 20-30 million back, if you're lucky.
Is the medical and fitness department really that bad? I don't like Cristiano, but he's got a point when saying it's not fixed by replacing managers again and again. And if even CR doesn't blame ETH, well, that says something. Utd doesn't have the galacticos bucks (nor the status), you can't just scout your way to the next league title. You need a plan, take it seriously, reflect often on how to improve it, and then stick to it until you found another better way.
Of course Amorim has a rocky start, but also of course ETH didn't have a good third season start, either. Both are excellent managers in the right place and the right time. I hope for Amorim he will be the first exception since SAF. But if his new manager (transfer) boost doesn't do much, and not enough, what will be the plan to build back up? Every two years the comeback options look farther and farther away, and Utd is only held together by its status built in the past. But as long as people are either delusional to think that a top 4 goal is a disgrace at this point of the Utd path, and as long as the great overhauls cannot be performed fully... it doesn't look good.
Klopp could do much more with players like Milner and Wijnaldum, because they were never a Pogba, a Bruno, or even a Rashford. If building around a particular player doesn't work, it's much easier to tell a workable midfielder to take a step back and service another centerpiece. Bruno deserved a lot of praise, Rashford had great seasons, Pogba had a run of games where he got compared to Lebron James. But the well runs dry, and who will tell them to take a step back? They'll tell you right back.
Now Rashford is moving out the backdoor, Pogba is known as the double bank breaker, and Bruno gets more and more in the way of midfield interplay. Maybe Amorim will save him and fit him in better, but in the ETH systems he seemed to central for his style of play, but he was also ETH's new Tadic. But Tadic at LW was less in the way of midfield, and he brought the numbers when out of form, big time. Bruno didn't. You can't put the blame on him, since Ajax was much more stable than Utd is, and everybody hits bad form, nor do all players fit every system out there. But you couldn't take out Tadic, and you can't take out Bruno.
For obvious reasons, but if you want to rebuild United, I'm not sure if it's sustainable to build it around old stars. Not because they're not good enough, but you can't show a new face if you still wear the mask of the old one.
This derailed tremendously. I just wanted to say that the transfers weren't all that bad. At least not scouting wise. Financially they were horrible, and in hindsight some options weren't as great or reliable as they looked like they would be. But that's hindsight. But looking at the squad, I do feel like in full fitness it should have been pretty good. You'll always have a second-season-Casemiro, but in a good squad there's always space for someone to underperform. Sure, all these injuries and lacks of fitness made things much worse than just a single underperformer. Shaw is gone again, and I hope this means Amorim gets to build his squad around players available, actually available at present, and actually available for many games to come. Mentally, physically and technically. But his Sporting may have been terrific... I think it will help to hold our horses.
Him being the next manager to go doesn't mean anything about his personal talents, nor did it for ETH, nor does it for Bruno, Zirkzee, Mainoo, even Rashford. All of these names have shown to be able to do a great job, even if they aren't - currently - doing so here. It's so weird actually how so many people underperform at United. Perhaps it's bad luck, perhaps it just started out with bad luck, but now the confidence is so low all around that any hit will break the (current) new plan. Hope this run doesn't already ruin Amorim's chances at "redemption", because while I expect some transfers, I don't expect five new players ready to start and lead.
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The way how fan base moved the success line back from winning shit to seeing top 4 as a win, its just a reflection of slipped standards in and around corp.
That literally makes no sense. We already established the club should be blamed and should take responsibility. But how can a manager be absolved of any blame for transfers? Are you a Ten Hag fanboi?
I understand managers won’t know every player out there - even Fergie and Pep won’t know. That’s why you have scouts. But he didn’t sign anyone outside the players who played for him except Casemeiro.
So he asks the club to sign these players and the club spends £600m and only the club is to blame for spending that money? We wouldn’t have got these said players hadn’t been for the manager. He was the one putting together his team. Just cause there is no DOF you don’t go out and sign all your ex players. At least if they were good or if you’re getting them to implement your system, then I understand but they were neither.
You can't really compare any current Utd team to ones from ten years ago, let alone more.
The job isn't done when they finish 4th, but part of this plan is to get there now and not delusionally think you can just buy a Pogba or Sancho and have him shoot your way to the top of the table. At their times that was almost an option, now not only will such players likely not come any time soon, they will simply not be enough to turn this team into title candidates, especially since you also have to consider other teams won't be content to sit back and relax for a season as well. This season was a unique chance to overtake City (for a bit), but then there's still Arsenal and Liverpool, and overperformers like Leicester.
Anything can happen, and a trophy is much better, but it's delusional to set that as a goal for this season.
Finishing top 4, improving the play, improving the players, at this time, is definitely a success. Not a success as in you made your dream came true, but that you reached your goal. Not the final goal, but the goal that will help you reach the final one.
It hurts to see a club like Utd struggle like this, but it's odd to pretend they're in the place to claim the right to the top of the league. They don't. If they figure out a plan that actually works, perhaps they can later. But now, top 4 is a good finish for a club like United. 1st would be better, of course, but even then you want to consider consistency. It won't help to have a Leicester 2016 season and then relegate not much later.
No need to be all dramatic about simply acknowledging that United is far from a finished product. If you want it to be, you first have to finish parts of that product, and reaching fourth will help that. But as of now, even 4th looks to be delusional... let alone a shot at anything higher.
If Amorim manages to get them up to fourth this season, that would definitely be a success.
But like ETH showed after his first season finish, the long term project would not be a definite success.
No need to be elitists about United's current position because they used to be big shots in a distant past. Sometimes reality asks you for a different approach if you want to be in a better position (again).
You're right - we should expect a title win with this group of players.
Im not even talking about eth specifically here anymore, but im general.. I think in a healthy club and organization a manager can always be consulted about purchases and in general what the squad needs.. But he shouldz never have a single definitive vote in 'what' and 'who'. This should be a choice by the higher organization who are responsible for the long term and sustainability..
So - in my point of view - if a club gives the keys to the vault to the manager - who's main responsibility are the performances in the here and now - its indeed fully on the club..
It's not fully on the club when the manager demanded those keys to do his job. The club trusted him to not be completely fecking useless.
Yep. Hopefully the cycle ends with INEOS at the helm.
If a manager demands that, that should be a red flag not to take him..
Bewildering?
That coaching team had United 13th after a poor season previously.
How can they be at all surprised when the sack came? The lack of brains at Old Trafford is amazing.
Yeah, am sure he would say no to United and all the big bucks if we declined him his wish. Especially after working in Ajax under proper structure.
Pointless comment as we have no idea
Well, it is pretty straightforward. You think that he gave an ultimatum to the club? Would be pretty brave of him especially considering how much money was on the table to get and the fact that he wouldn't get that kind of power in pretty much any other top club.
