I really don’t understand that sentiment at all as an outsider. Why in the world is a league cup something that protects one of your coaches from being fired? It’s such a small and rather meaningless trophy. How does that excuse a lack of success at basically every other area of the sporting side of things?
Erik ten Hag | Currently unemployed
- Thread starter Red Star One
- Start date
I’d say it’s the larger problem and your managerial hirings are a symptom of this.
Weve constantly bought more average players than good, which stunts any manager. Even good ones.
Spurs job will be available soon.
That is one of the main issues yeah; but so is having bad coaches in contact with the players for such a long time. Standards tend go through the floor, and they very clearly did.
So much so, that it appears to be the very first thing Amorim is addressing. It’s undeniable now.
It feels like only yesterday that the forum was full of posts about how Ten Hag was a bad coach because he couldn't get a tune out of these players, and a better coach would come in and turn us around quickly. The argument that it would take a while to overhaul the culture and footballing approach of the squad was dismissed, and various new manager bounces for smaller clubs were pointed out as how easy it should be.
Just because it's been conclusively demonstrated that there isn't an overnight fix, that doesn't mean the vitriol towards Ten Hag has dried up. For some, it somehow has to be Ten Hag's fault that Amorim has had a slow start, so we're back to the silly posts about him spending fortunes, which was Murtough's remit rather than his.
Ten Hag in the end was, like the vast majority of managers, a guy who did his best but was just not up to the United job. The damage done to the club, that folks in this thread are wrongly assigning to him, was due to over a decade of mismanagement from the Glazers and their various lackeys - Woodward, Murtough, Arnold, etc.
Im unsure about this, Ten Hag has tried to raise standards just like ole did and just like Amorim is now. Whether it's giving a soft touch to players to get them happy to put a shift in by their own accord like Ole or force their hand by bringing them in on a day of rest to run a distance like Ten Hag did.
But chronically poor recruitment will consistently floor the progress.
I agree with you around the recruitment etc but I guess why a lot of our managers get their fair share of the blame is because we’ve given them too much power in the recruitment process - more so then most top clubs I guess.
Nah, there's been near unanimous agreement on the Caf for years that those guys deserve a massive part of the blame for the state of the club.
That doesn't mean ETH is blameless and didn't do a supremely poor job as our manager.
I feel thats more because we are shit at raising our own standards at board level than the shitness of any coach or manager. A well run club doesn't ask the manager to take a lead on the process. Few managers will ever say no but they need to be saved from themselves. The small stutter Liverpool had where they had a dip in transfer quality was when Edwards left. I think Klopp had more of a voice with Ward and it wasnt as stellar for example.
Ultimately a club needs to strategize well at DoF level in order to succeed. It's equally as important as the manager himself.
Yeah, you have no complaints from me there (& probably vast majority in the Caf). It’s why there’s been numerous threads on here about our need for a structure and DoF etc since SAF left (basically). I’ve said it a few times, but Woodward and his incompetence really did the most damage to the club. He wasted billions, and we ended up with Frankenstein like squads, overpaid and devoid of the level of quality expected at such fees/wages etc.
It was our first trophy in nearly six years.
Spurs won the first trophy in decades under Juande Ramos. Chelsea won their first ever CL under Di Mateo. They were both sacked months after winning the trophies and hardly anyone cared or thought/thinks those decisions were incorrect, because otherwise they were mostly bad, as was EtH.
Yep Managers given too much power over Targets and planning only for themselves and in the short term. No long term thinking, Ferguson used to be a DOF and Manager rolled into one. When he sold Ince, Hughes and Kanchelskis and replaced them with kids or when he signed Rooney and Ronaldo and built a team around them knowing we'd struggle short term. Are prime examples of the type of long term thinking the club needs to employ going forward.
Hmm, I wouldn't put it to bed though, to be honest. From all we know, Ashworth had been involved and I from the Athletic reported about his exit, it seemed that he wasn't too much of a fan of Amorim, mainly due to the challenges that would have come from his prefered system. Which he certainly had a point. It is a difficult thing now to really understand which reason to which extent were in play. To me personally, it made sense to not get rid of ETH if there was no suiting candidate available. Even though I have no issues to admit that what he had done the season before was enough to suggest, that he probably wasn't up for the task.
It is. But it also is his because apparently the club wasn't ready to offer him alternatives to the player he wanted. Don't get me wrong, I have no interest in protecting ETH here and ultimately, I don't care who did the bigger damage but all our managerial decisions since Fergie had been really bad and the power and knowledge/know-how vacuum created a cash oven.
ETH more or less continued this style of play in his first season and got good results as well. Keep it compact and hit them on the break is a viable way of playing but you aren't getting to the very top if thats all you can do. Ole might have been able to keep us there, when we would have managed to offer him enough individual brilliance to force results often enough. I just think, that applied to ETH as well. He tried his style in the beginning, went back, got results. Everything went downhill when he attempted to change the style of play into modern football.
Did he change our style of play? I am not so sure about it. Yes, matches looked fairly different, but was that our decision or was it simply opponents realizing that we are good with transitions but lacking against compact defenses so more and more teams tried this strategy?I never said we signed players Ole didn't want.
I'm saying 'we' ie The Club (Ole included) pushed to sign the likes of Sancho and Ronaldo thinking they would elevate us into title contention. But Ole while also trying to change the style of play that season wasn't upto the task of taking that squad to the next level.
Everything what he said in interviews more alluded to him following Fergies playbook, trying to bring in "the right players" and have them "figure something out".
it really wasn't. We had McFred ffs. Most of the players from that time that left us went into oblivion. And some of the negative developments started to have effect, mostly regarding Rashfords transition towards "I am so good, I can play just like Ronaldo".
Whoever said that we would be challenging for titles must have been somewhat naive. All the underlying numbers suggest differently and while adding Ronaldo, Sancho and Varane sounds pretty good, none of those were sure-things. Ronaldo came from Juve with the reputation that they were happy to offload him due to it becoming impossible to function as a team. Varane came as an injuryprone player with a fantastic name but with question marks about his availability. Sancho was a young boy noone knew whether he would have been able to reenact the things he did for a good and organized Dortmund team in Bundesliga in a fairly unorganized team in a more physical league with a higher overall quality in defense. And that for crazy money...
I didn't had the feeling at the time, that the majority was really seeing a title charge. At that time, Ole wars were in full force. It was just the excitement about the transfers that put sand in some peoples eyes... A bit like the FA cup did last year I guess.
Who would have thought - I fully agree with you. Except for the last sentence though of course, I will just assume it isn't there.I don't think you realize how bad that team was.
De Gea, a keeper uncapable of ball-playing and progressive passing, and being awful under pressure, being our first choice keeper whilst every other rival bar Spurs were already playing with technical goalkeepers by that point. His shot-stopping abilities have dropped off by then too.
AWB plus an unready Dalot as our right-back options after not being able to buy Trippier for Atletico Madrid.
Lindelöf being a starting CB for two seasons straight for a team with top 4 aspirations. And then he gets replaced by Varane who struggles in a high line, cannot pass forward, and cannot carry the ball. Reserve options? Bailly, Jones, Tuanzebe?
Having a world class but injury prone Shaw as our mainstay LB but two mid-table level subs for him in Telles and Williams.
McFred was our first choice midfield. The bench options? A physically declined Matic and Pogba who was never disciplined enough to play in a double pivot. But he was wasted there anyways.
In the attack, we were really well stocked IMO. However, the midfield and defense wouldn't make top 8 in the current PL. Only Maguire and Shaw were elite pieces from all those players.
In regards to Ten Hag he had enough time, opportunity and financial backing to finish top 4 while playing progressive football. The fact that he couldn't indicates he wasn't a top manager or at least he wasn't a good fit for United/Premier League. Could he have finished top 4 playing Counter atacking football, yes probably but so could Sam Allardyce probably.
He tried to yes, he wanted to implement a more pressing and possession based system. But then we signed Ronaldo, there were glimpses of it but again I don't think Ole was upto the task. And to be honest I don't think we had the right squad profile for that type of football either.
Yep.
Absolutely disastrous what this guy did to us. The squad he left is a shambles and the money has gone.
Very difficult to see us getting back to the heights of being a regular top 4 team that Ole had us performing at.
Very difficult to see us getting back to the heights of being a regular top 4 team that Ole had us performing at.
He was also talking about making us the most hardworking team in the league... I mean, I see where you are coming from but saying all those things isn't the difficult part, it is doing something to make it kind of tangible, visible at best, measurable just as good. And thats where Ole lacked a lot. I mean, pressing and possession where already hot terms when he was in charge. Even my mum would have an idea about those things and she merely watches international tournaments. If anything, Ole knew quite well, what to say to make people feel good. And thats not me saying he intentionally lied, I am really sure he wanted to improve those aspects I just think that intentions are hollow when you really have no idea how to influence any of it.
edit: and in accordance to the thread, same thing applies to ETH as well. His progress also got hollow at a certain time. His ideas of being the best transitional side was also a carricature at one point, because you'd expect him to get the idea himself that being transitional alone isn't going to help anything if you are as soft as we were in defence.
And fyi, I know it is the ETH thread but I actually think, it is important to have a good idea what the actual issues where with any given manager. Because for all the trouble we had, at least we should be able to learn something from it.
Did a terrible job, deservedly got sacked and should be sacked sooner than he was.
Though I think some circumstances he faced didnt help at all, the injury crisis last season was crazy and would have been difficult for any manager.
I am not buying into this all our players are crap sentiment. Mount, Antony were 2 disastrous buys under him for the money involved, but he's no technical director. I still believe that we have players good enough to perform far better than this apart from having no decent fit LB, and no proper ball playing midfielder.
Maresca at Chelsea shows how a manager can transform a team with proper coaching and tactics. We have seen some improvements under Amorim, and should see a lot more in the next 5 months.
Though I think some circumstances he faced didnt help at all, the injury crisis last season was crazy and would have been difficult for any manager.
I am not buying into this all our players are crap sentiment. Mount, Antony were 2 disastrous buys under him for the money involved, but he's no technical director. I still believe that we have players good enough to perform far better than this apart from having no decent fit LB, and no proper ball playing midfielder.
Maresca at Chelsea shows how a manager can transform a team with proper coaching and tactics. We have seen some improvements under Amorim, and should see a lot more in the next 5 months.
The League Cup should not have protected him... Just like the terrible defeat an Anfield shouldn't have caused his sacking. We were doing quite well that season until then and there seemed to be signs of progress.
Well, he actually did in his first season with the second highest points total we've had in the post SAF era (although 75 points is not especially brilliant) but I don't disagree with what you're saying. Every single permanent manager since Moyes left has had a 'good' start to their time here but it falls apart in the second or third season.
They already decided not to go with ten Hag back in 2021 due to (reportedly) lack of charisma and his level of communication in English language which isn't very advanced as his tenure at United showed.
If Ange fails, I have a feeling Spurs will go for Iraola or Frank.
Of course there has, but there's still been far too much blame on Ten Hag that should actually go on Murtough et al.
I also don't think anybody on the forum has ever referred to ETH as blameless, you appear to have pulled that from nowhere, in the post you've quoted I've stated that he wasn't up to the job. But in terms of poor signings, wasted money, etc, during Ten Hag's tenure here, the overwhelming majority of the blame sits with Murtough and Arnold.
Not blaming managers anymore (or not putting the most blame on them to be more correct). Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho, Ole, Ten Hag, now Amorim.. It's the club and it's always been mostly about the club. You have Brighton and somehow any manager they bring in works to the level they aspire to or even above. Am pretty certain the same thing would happen in Brentford and am dead certain that the gap between Slot and Ten Hag isn't as big as results suggest. One looks like a genius and the other like a clown atm. Even if that's true the club decided to go with Ten Hag.
It wasn't Moyes who panicked halfway through the season and bring Mata for mega money without him being an obvious fit. It was some rescue mission with Moyes probably just nodding along. Am not sure Van Gaal decided to go full galactico and bring in Falcao on a deadline day in a team which already had Van Persie, Rooney and Di Maria. It's not Mourinho fault he plays fully opposite style from Van Gaal and in the end it really isn't his fault for behaving like a prick when things went south because that's just who Mourinho is. It is not Ole fault they put him "at the wheel" of a feckin Ferrari when he never had the expirience to drive anything remotely similiar. It's actually more remarkable he managed to drive it decently and am pretty sure he gave his absolute best. It is not Ten Hag fault no one was absolutely clear what is wanted from him and that the reason he is hired is the way he played at Ajax. It is even more shambolic that, with that in mind, he was allowed to be the driving force of our recruitment. Especially when most of his recruitment and players thrived in the playing style he decided not to follow once he came in United.
In the end, it's not his fault that absolutely no one reacted and stopped Antony transfer on the basis of sheer lunacy. It is also not his fault he wasn't sacked earlier or at least after FA Cup final (btw every single manager that is mentioned above should have been sacked earlier). In serious and well run clubs, these things just don't happen.. I sure as feck won't blame Amorim if he starts panicking and asks for few Sporting players because he lived his best managers days with them and knows them best. But I will blame the board if it allows it.
I actually have a lot of faith in both Amorim and his style. The fact he decided not to give up from his principles is already a great sign. But ultimatively, the people above him have to start pulling their weight and show their value. The recruitment has to be on point and everyone has to pull in the same direction. Ineos at least marked that as the biggest issue after Ferguson, so there is hope. There is absolutely no way that one person can pull as back out of this mess.
edit: now I've seen @The Hilton post as well. Fully agree.. We are in some strange loop waiting for a "Chosen one" only to pin every single thing that's wrong with the club on them once they don't succeed. Rinse and repeat.
It wasn't Moyes who panicked halfway through the season and bring Mata for mega money without him being an obvious fit. It was some rescue mission with Moyes probably just nodding along. Am not sure Van Gaal decided to go full galactico and bring in Falcao on a deadline day in a team which already had Van Persie, Rooney and Di Maria. It's not Mourinho fault he plays fully opposite style from Van Gaal and in the end it really isn't his fault for behaving like a prick when things went south because that's just who Mourinho is. It is not Ole fault they put him "at the wheel" of a feckin Ferrari when he never had the expirience to drive anything remotely similiar. It's actually more remarkable he managed to drive it decently and am pretty sure he gave his absolute best. It is not Ten Hag fault no one was absolutely clear what is wanted from him and that the reason he is hired is the way he played at Ajax. It is even more shambolic that, with that in mind, he was allowed to be the driving force of our recruitment. Especially when most of his recruitment and players thrived in the playing style he decided not to follow once he came in United.
In the end, it's not his fault that absolutely no one reacted and stopped Antony transfer on the basis of sheer lunacy. It is also not his fault he wasn't sacked earlier or at least after FA Cup final (btw every single manager that is mentioned above should have been sacked earlier). In serious and well run clubs, these things just don't happen.. I sure as feck won't blame Amorim if he starts panicking and asks for few Sporting players because he lived his best managers days with them and knows them best. But I will blame the board if it allows it.
I actually have a lot of faith in both Amorim and his style. The fact he decided not to give up from his principles is already a great sign. But ultimatively, the people above him have to start pulling their weight and show their value. The recruitment has to be on point and everyone has to pull in the same direction. Ineos at least marked that as the biggest issue after Ferguson, so there is hope. There is absolutely no way that one person can pull as back out of this mess.
edit: now I've seen @The Hilton post as well. Fully agree.. We are in some strange loop waiting for a "Chosen one" only to pin every single thing that's wrong with the club on them once they don't succeed. Rinse and repeat.
Last edited:
Spent circa 600m and left us with dross. constantly played Bruno and Rashford even when it wasn't working, shipped off Zidane Iqbal and worst didn't play Diallo with rumours floating about during that time that we may sell.
Zidane Iqbal would have been good for the No10 spot.
I would keep only max 5 players from the squad he left behind, some were said to be club buys and not his. Yoro, Deligt, Mainoo, Amad and Ugarte.
I feel sorry for his next club.
Zidane Iqbal would have been good for the No10 spot.
I would keep only max 5 players from the squad he left behind, some were said to be club buys and not his. Yoro, Deligt, Mainoo, Amad and Ugarte.
I feel sorry for his next club.
I don't know why it never worked out that season, I'm sure it was a number of factors. But ultimately he failed in his objective that season and it cost him his job.
Yes but he only did so by basically reverting to playing a version of the same football we employed under Ole. He had more than enough backing and opportunity to finish top 4 (or at least come close) while playing ''modern'' football.
Instead he chose to try to implement a style of football that few understood, persevered with it despite it clearly not working and tanked an entire season in the process.
Here's the problem with mass clearouts and we've tried it twice now under Van Gaal and Ten Hag. If they don't work then you can't do it all over again in the next 2-3 years. It's just not financially practical, so now Amorim just like Jose and Ole will have to make do with Ten Hag signings for years to come. And when you consider that possibility it should lead to the conclusion that it's never a good idea to have a mass clear-out in a short period and then spend £600-700m trying to replace them all. It's just too risky and the club has lost hundreds of millions
Imo, it's quite ridiculous people are blaming him for a responsibility that should never have been his in the first place. It shouldn't have been Ten Hag buying players, but it became his responsibility because the club is shit from top to bottom.
Do you think ETH would have been dictating the players Bayern bought had he been there? The state of the club is firmly on the people that run it.
Do you think ETH would have been dictating the players Bayern bought had he been there? The state of the club is firmly on the people that run it.
Whether it should or should not have been his responsibility, ultimately it was, and he failed big time. By that metric alone he is a crap manager.
Agreed, there is only one manager I’d blame for our decline since Fergie left and that’s Moyes. Ferguson left him a trophy machine, all he had to do was slot into it, listen to the experts and coach the first team. He didn’t have the self esteem to do this though and instead set about dismantling said machine and bringing in very average yes men in their places.
Iqbal was sold for 1M and is doing OK for the Dutch number three. I'm not sure what you see in him that makes you think he'd be an upgrade over United's current options.
Edit: what I mean to say with that is that no-one saw this sort of potential for Iqbal. Otherwise he would been sold for more to a better team. So using that as a key argument against Ten Hag seems rather odd. Also, I'm with @VP89 in that transfer issues are primarily on the club, as in this day and age no top club should rely so much on its coach/manager for its transfer strategy.
You won’t be convinced otherwise but there’s a reason top club don’t leave recruitment to the manager/coach.
Fergie also recommended the fool.
Moyes was lost from day one, but the blame isn't all on him, Woodie and the Glazers running of the club is the reason for the decay, and them leeches are still in the shadows.
What experts? Phelan and Rene? Both of them have done nothing of note since Fergie retired.
Moyes was left with an aging team. His first mistake was chasing Fabregas and Bale all summer. He should have went for realistic targets. But regardless, Fergie should have never been allowed to appoint him in the first place. Plus, after we sold Ronaldo, we didn’t bother signing any decent players besides Van Persie, who was old and De Gea. In that time players like Robben, Hazard, Villa, Aguero, Silva, Benzema etc were all moving. Even someone like Moussa Dembele would have been perfect for our midfield back in 2012. The fact is the rot set in 2009, once we sold Ronaldo/Tevez and signed Owen/Obertan. Fergie papered through it with his excellent management. When we lost the final to Barca again in 2011, Fergie after the final said there would be changes. We just added more average by signing Ashley Young.
I agree it should be left to the club, ETH and Van Gaal spends are a testament to that, but regardless of the point, ETH had the keys and dropped them down the drain.
Point is, any club needs to hit their target and yours, after two weak campaigns with the same manager and an even rockier start to the third, just lost faith in him.
Edit: target = top 4 & CL football
Edit: target = top 4 & CL football
Whether or not he should be responsible is irrelevant really. For £8m+ a year you would expect someone to have a good eye for a player.
He recruited like he'd never watched a PL game in his life.
He recruited like he'd never watched a PL game in his life.