Erik ten Hag | Currently unemployed

[Danny]

Indeed.

Just today I note Arne Slot publicly criticising Darwin Nunez' effort in their last two games. Something tells me HR won't be knocking on his door, as Liverpool walk their way to a league title.

I know what you mean but it's much easier to do this with one or two players who are part of a successful team than in a team that is already struggling to perform

 

[The Hilton]

The caf hates Ten Hag, probably rightly so but most opinions on him are pure hatred and no sense.

The funny thing is I listened to the podcasr yesterday, and he's talking about his 22 year career after retiring from being a player. He was head if academy and has had several managerial roles. It is not an United podcast at all.

He has recognised some of the mistakes he's made, he's taking a sabbatical and reflecting on his own performance.

He does seem to really cling unto the cup wins and the other lost final, but so did Mourinho when he left us. Though it was never enough, but I can imagine it will take a long time before we win a cup again.

It definitely isn't "rightly so". He didn't work out here, and was rightly fired, nobody disputes that, but the level of vitriol from some on here is beyond bizarre, we still have posters trying to defend the likes of Sancho in order to find a way to blame his insubordination on Ten Hag.

Unfortunately it's going to take time for a lot of folks to let it go, and likely a new scapegoat will need to emerge for people to move on. Hopefully it isn't Amorim and things go well with him here, it would be nice to break this cycle of outrage for a while.

 

[Spark]

It definitely isn't "rightly so". He didn't work out here, and was rightly fired, nobody disputes that, but the level of vitriol from some on here is beyond bizarre, we still have posters trying to defend the likes of Sancho in order to find a way to blame his insubordination on Ten Hag.

Unfortunately it's going to take time for a lot of folks to let it go, and likely a new scapegoat will need to emerge for people to move on. Hopefully it isn't Amorim and things go well with him here, it would be nice to break this cycle of outrage for a while.

Couldn't agree more. Ten Hag was incredibly stubborn and infuriating, but what he's said is also spot on (if not a touch ironic, as I don't think he's actually too capable of listening to criticism - might be able to take it though).

 

[tomaldinho1]

obviously much more than one great player, and I don't know what your point is with De Ligt - if he looked better in a much easier Dutch league than in a more difficult ones in Germany/Italy/England, does it mean he was all hype and never developed after leaving Ajax or never reached the levels he played at Ajax? Because if so I disagree.

Tadic, Ziyech, Mazraoui were/are all very good players in my books, and not only in Ajax. VdB is probably the only player from that team that joined a much stronger league and immediately looked clueless.

Your point was you don't think the Ajax generation was just hyped and never lived to their expectations - with the actual point being you want to take credit away from ETH for achieving good things with them.

Yet every single player there, bar one, has either not lived up to their hype when they moved on or was an older player (like Tadic) who then played their best football under ETH.

Criticise him for his time at united all you want, but it is laughable to at like he was not extremely highly rated because of his achievements with a team that was punching above its weight when we signed him.

 

[noodlehair]

The line about "this generation of players" and them being precious or not being able to handle criticism seems to get trotted out a lot and its a bit of a cheap excuse imo. Its always from either ex pros who can't get into management or managers who've recently been sacked.

I get that football used to be more physical and players are also more spoilt/hold more power now due to being paid more, agents being more involved etc...but the basic principle in management is the same imo, and not that different from being a manager of any group of people. Football players have not over the past 20 years morphed into a different species from the rest of the human race, and most good managers can and do criticise their players when it is needed.

Players will listen and take on board criticism if it is done constructively and IF they respect/trust their manager enough to think that they are better off listening to them - If you are trying to tell your players what they are doing wrong, while you are playing Casemiro and Mason Mount as a central midfield, they obviously are going to be less inclined to listen to you. Similarly if you publicly freeze out Jadon Sancho over a twitter remark that could have easily just been forgotten about, and then are playing Pellistri on the wing...regardless of if you are in the right (or how bad Sancho might be), players will look at this and think you don't have a f*cking clue what you're doing.

If the players don't think you know what you're doing, criticising them is only going to go one way. The same way it would if someone I considered to be incompetent started telling me why I was doing my job wrong. The only difference being they aren't going to get sacked when I don't listen to them.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

His reference to Sir Alex is utter bollocks.

 

[JPRouve]

His reference to Sir Alex is utter bollocks.

True, years ago SAF said that you can't treat two players similarly that you have to take into account their personalities. He also praised Phelan for that side of management, explaining that he was good at interacting with different players and would know how each players should be handled.

 

[giorno]

It was done to him and EtH seems to suggest it was the norm and very normal back then.

For him. Try that shit with Van Basten or Gullit and it would be a very different story

 

[Acrobat7]

ChatGPT has done him dirty. I take zero responsibility. Regardless both him and Moyes won’t change the point that ten Hag has achieved more than the majority of EPL managers let alone looking at the other top leagues.

ChatGPT is not a research engine. Try Perplexity.

 

[Cassidy]

I think it’s good players aren’t letting managers get away with getting on camera/press conferences and single them out. Always thought it was poor management



Does this argument even stand scrutiny? I mean, seeing as Sancho didn’t get away with anything. Guy got banished and booted

Yes given the culture was already set by then and Sancho got away with alot before Ten Hag even arrived.

 

[TsuWave]

Yes given the culture was already set by then and Sancho got away with alot before Ten Hag even arrived.

Apologies, I just can’t make sense of what you’re saying. Your sentence was that “at clubs with better cultures Sancho doesn’t get away with what he pulled” - but Sancho didn’t get away with it here neither because he got banished and booted, so it doesn’t track. Players that step out of line at United have been shipped out. In fact, at clubs that have been more successful than United recently - they seem to be more lenient. A similar situation with Gasperini and Lookman just transpired at Atalanta, but rather than banishing and selling the player, he was back in the team next match day.

This isn’t specifically about you, but I have a theory that United fans haven’t fully adjusted to the notion that these days not playing for United is not the be all end all that it might have been in the past (if it ever was). Players have options and they are aware of this - so if a manager does something they don’t appreciate they will right or wrong defend themselves/voice their opinion because at worst - you’re going to be sold - that doesn’t necessarily translate into United having a poor culture that let’s players get away with disciplinary stuff, that other clubs don’t. Especially when the evidence suggests otherwise.

 

[Cassidy]

Apologies, I just can’t make sense of what you’re saying. Your sentence was that “at clubs with better cultures Sancho doesn’t get away with what he pulled” - but Sancho didn’t get away with it here neither because he got banished and booted, so it doesn’t track. Players that step out of line at United have been shipped out. In fact, at clubs that have been more successful than United recently - they seem to be more lenient. A similar situation with Gasperini and Lookman just transpired at Atalanta, but rather than banishing and selling the player, he was back in the team next match day.

This isn’t specifically about you, but I have a theory that United fans haven’t fully adjusted to the notion that these days not playing for United is not the be all end all that it might have been in the past (if it ever was). Players have options and they are aware of this - so if a manager does something they don’t appreciate they will right or wrong defend themselves/voice their opinion because at worst - you’re going to be sold - that doesn’t necessarily translate into United having a poor culture that let’s players get away with disciplinary stuff, that other clubs don’t. Especially when the evidence suggests otherwise.

He did get away with it here, you are assuming what he pulled was the final social media stunt. He refused to play RW under Ole, he was upset about not getting the no7 shirt when Ronaldo came in, then under ETH he took half a season off during a time when the team was struggling and was training in the Netherlands. All this whilst being a top signing and one of the top earners, at a club with a proper culture he would have been booted out a lot sooner. Instead we placated him and tried to get it to work because we had paid so much money etc. This all led to him doing what he did, he was enabled his entire time at the club, up until the last flashpoint

We are starting to address said culture. But we are not there yet and it will take time. The culture at the club had been eroded over a long period alot of the things we are seeing lately are just the fruits of that and also the pain of trying to change it.

 

[TsuWave]

He did get away with it here, you are assuming what he pulled was the final social media stunt. He refused to play RW under Ole, he was upset about not getting the no7 shirt when Ronaldo came in, then under ETH he took half a season off during a time when the team was struggling and was training in the Netherlands. All this whilst being a top signing and one of the top earners, at a club with a proper culture he would have been booted out a lot sooner. Instead we placated him and tried to get it to work because we had paid so much money etc. This all led to him doing what he did, he was enabled his entire time at the club, up until the last flashpoint

We are starting to address said culture. But we are not there yet and it will take time. The culture at the club had been eroded over a long period alot of the things we are seeing lately are just the fruits of that and also the pain of trying to change it.

Similarly, you're seemingly assuming these disciplinary issues don't happen elsewhere. Moreover, where is it substantiated that "he refused to play RW under Ole" - I've done a cursory google search and can't seem to find anything corroborating that. In fact, a MEN report says he was trialled on the right and played X amount of games there under Ole - that suggests he didn't refuse to do it, no?

He was trialled as a right winger in those first few weeks at the club, but it quickly became apparent to United that their right wing solution was actually better suited elsewhere on the pitch. Sancho played just eight times on the right in his debut season, compared with 27 on the left. It was the same case last season as well, with 10 appearances in the role he was signed for and 23 on the opposite flank. [source]

How is being "upset at not getting the number 7" an issue of any substance/worth mentioning? The same happened with Garnacho - players are not only idiotically superstitious - some have brands built around their numbers - not that any of it matters, but I don't get how being upset about not getting a number is something a player "pulled". Also, Sancho didn't just wake up and decide to take half a season off, though. That was a decision made by management at the club because he was seemingly/reportedly struggling with mental health issues, and he was sent to train and recover in a controlled environment. Again, how is this something a player pulled? Or a disciplinary issue to be booted out for?

He reacted not in the best manner to publicly criticism and got frozen and shipped out. A much sterner position than other clubs have taken in similar circumstances.

 

[stefan92]

Similarly, you're seemingly assuming these disciplinary issues don't happen elsewhere. Moreover, where is it substantiated that "he refused to play RW under Ole" - I've done a cursory google search and can't seem to find anything corroborating that. In fact, a MEN report says he was trialled on the right and played X amount of games there under Ole - that suggests he didn't refuse to do it, no?

He was trialled as a right winger in those first few weeks at the club, but it quickly became apparent to United that their right wing solution was actually better suited elsewhere on the pitch. Sancho played just eight times on the right in his debut season, compared with 27 on the left. It was the same case last season as well, with 10 appearances in the role he was signed for and 23 on the opposite flank. [source]

How is being "upset at not getting the number 7" an issue of any substance/worth mentioning? The same happened with Garnacho - players are not only idiotically superstitious - some have brands built around their numbers - not that any of it matters, but I don't get how being upset about not getting a number is something a player "pulled". Also, Sancho didn't just wake up and decide to take half a season off, though. That was a decision made by management at the club because he was seemingly/reportedly struggling with mental health issues, and he was sent to train and recover in a controlled environment. Again, how is this something a player pulled? Or a disciplinary issue to be booted out for?

He reacted not in the best manner to publicly criticism and got frozen and shipped out. A much sterner position than other clubs have taken in similar circumstances.

To really break it down:
United signed Sancho as their star signing of the season but relegated him to supporting staff (symbolized by giving the promised number 7 to Ronaldo instead).
United signed Sancho without a plan how to use him properly (the RW/LW question).

That happened before he kicked a ball for United and of course was a terrible start. Combined with the (for him) horrible summer tournament it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that he mentally struggled.

Also regarding your point about poor reaction to criticism: yes he reacted badly but I still think it's interesting to see how different things developed at Dortmund. Where he did pull the "scapegoat" argument before: they treated it as emotional complaints of a whiny crybaby and just ignored it. He returned with strong perfomances and that was it.

I think I know which club has a more forgiving culture and it isn't United.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Ten Nag, amarite folks?

 

[stevoc]

True, years ago SAF said that you can't treat two players similarly that you have to take into account their personalities. He also praised Phelan for that side of management, explaining that he was good at interacting with different players and would know how each players should be handled.

Yep, ie. manage them. Some coaches seem to think their job is to be a drill sergeant. Ten Hag's comments sound like him making excuses for his own poor man management.

The line about "this generation of players" and them being precious or not being able to handle criticism seems to get trotted out a lot and its a bit of a cheap excuse imo. Its always from either ex pros who can't get into management or managers who've recently been sacked.

I get that football used to be more physical and players are also more spoilt/hold more power now due to being paid more, agents being more involved etc...but the basic principle in management is the same imo, and not that different from being a manager of any group of people. Football players have not over the past 20 years morphed into a different species from the rest of the human race, and most good managers can and do criticise their players when it is needed.

Players will listen and take on board criticism if it is done constructively and IF they respect/trust their manager enough to think that they are better off listening to them - If you are trying to tell your players what they are doing wrong, while you are playing Casemiro and Mason Mount as a central midfield, they obviously are going to be less inclined to listen to you. Similarly if you publicly freeze out Jadon Sancho over a twitter remark that could have easily just been forgotten about, and then are playing Pellistri on the wing...regardless of if you are in the right (or how bad Sancho might be), players will look at this and think you don't have a f*cking clue what you're doing.

If the players don't think you know what you're doing, criticising them is only going to go one way. The same way it would if someone I considered to be incompetent started telling me why I was doing my job wrong. The only difference being they aren't going to get sacked when I don't listen to them.

Case in point, it was also a bad move considering he would have known that Antony wouldn't have been available for a while because of his legal troubles in Brazil which was made public the week after if I remember correctly.

 

[stevoc]

I think the club culture is a bigger issue here than the manager. At clubs with better cultures players don’t get away with what Sancho pulled

At United players seem to know they can get managers sacked and so don’t see them as the ultimate authority. We saw this with Lingard as well going to Murtough above the managers head and getting time off etc

At City Aguero had to bend to Peps will, Thiki didn’t allow a back door for Aguero to undermine Pep. Same at Arsenal with Ozil and Auba under Arteta. Those who didn’t fall in line were cleared out no matter their status. Arsenal went multiple seasons finishing 8th before it all came together.

Hopefully thats whats happening now at United.

Which player ever got a manager sacked at United?

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

The signings ETH made here were fecking unbelievably bad.

Our transfers have been terrible post Fergie in general but his especially were fecking atrocious and we'll be counting the cost of them for years and years.

Antony
Casemiro
Mount
Hojlund
Onana
Zirkzee

All complete disasters. Obscenely expensive disasters.

Wherever he ends up would be wise to not give him any say in transfers.

 

[Cassidy]

Similarly, you're seemingly assuming these disciplinary issues don't happen elsewhere. Moreover, where is it substantiated that "he refused to play RW under Ole" - I've done a cursory google search and can't seem to find anything corroborating that. In fact, a MEN report says he was trialled on the right and played X amount of games there under Ole - that suggests he didn't refuse to do it, no?

He was trialled as a right winger in those first few weeks at the club, but it quickly became apparent to United that their right wing solution was actually better suited elsewhere on the pitch. Sancho played just eight times on the right in his debut season, compared with 27 on the left. It was the same case last season as well, with 10 appearances in the role he was signed for and 23 on the opposite flank. [source]

How is being "upset at not getting the number 7" an issue of any substance/worth mentioning? The same happened with Garnacho - players are not only idiotically superstitious - some have brands built around their numbers - not that any of it matters, but I don't get how being upset about not getting a number is something a player "pulled". Also, Sancho didn't just wake up and decide to take half a season off, though. That was a decision made by management at the club because he was seemingly/reportedly struggling with mental health issues, and he was sent to train and recover in a controlled environment. Again, how is this something a player pulled? Or a disciplinary issue to be booted out for?

He reacted not in the best manner to publicly criticism and got frozen and shipped out. A much sterner position than other clubs have taken in similar circumstances.

I’m not assuming issues don’t happen elsewhere I am saying players have been getting away with it at United for too long and more than any other top club. This has been corroborated by both ex players and ex managers. Its also one of the reason ETH was tasked with altering the culture as a main part of his job, and why Amorim kept speaking about it when he arrived.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

You are discrediting and downplaying his massively impressive accomplishment of reaching the Semi Finals by emphasizing it was largely due to the squad at his hand.

Relatively unheralded clubs reach CL semis with some frequency. Dortmund reached the final in 23/24. Villareal reached the semifinal in 21/22. Lyon and RB Leipzig reached the semifinals in 20/21. Roma reached the semifinals in 17/18. It's an accomplishment, but as a one-off it's not too impressive.

 

[Josep Dowling]

Relatively unheralded clubs reach CL semis with some frequency. Dortmund reached the final in 23/24. Villareal reached the semifinal in 21/22. Lyon and RB Leipzig reached the semifinals in 20/21. Roma reached the semifinals in 17/18. It's an accomplishment, but as a one-off it's not too impressive.

And that’s the truth. His accomplishments were overrated before he even came in. Ajax were much better run behind the scenes whilst he managed the club as well. We would have been better off taking Van Der Sar away from Ajax.