I know what you mean but it's much easier to do this with one or two players who are part of a successful team than in a team that is already struggling to perform
Erik ten Hag | Currently unemployed
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
It definitely isn't "rightly so". He didn't work out here, and was rightly fired, nobody disputes that, but the level of vitriol from some on here is beyond bizarre, we still have posters trying to defend the likes of Sancho in order to find a way to blame his insubordination on Ten Hag.
Unfortunately it's going to take time for a lot of folks to let it go, and likely a new scapegoat will need to emerge for people to move on. Hopefully it isn't Amorim and things go well with him here, it would be nice to break this cycle of outrage for a while.
Couldn't agree more. Ten Hag was incredibly stubborn and infuriating, but what he's said is also spot on (if not a touch ironic, as I don't think he's actually too capable of listening to criticism - might be able to take it though).
Your point was you don't think the Ajax generation was just hyped and never lived to their expectations - with the actual point being you want to take credit away from ETH for achieving good things with them.
Yet every single player there, bar one, has either not lived up to their hype when they moved on or was an older player (like Tadic) who then played their best football under ETH.
Criticise him for his time at united all you want, but it is laughable to at like he was not extremely highly rated because of his achievements with a team that was punching above its weight when we signed him.
The line about "this generation of players" and them being precious or not being able to handle criticism seems to get trotted out a lot and its a bit of a cheap excuse imo. Its always from either ex pros who can't get into management or managers who've recently been sacked.
I get that football used to be more physical and players are also more spoilt/hold more power now due to being paid more, agents being more involved etc...but the basic principle in management is the same imo, and not that different from being a manager of any group of people. Football players have not over the past 20 years morphed into a different species from the rest of the human race, and most good managers can and do criticise their players when it is needed.
Players will listen and take on board criticism if it is done constructively and IF they respect/trust their manager enough to think that they are better off listening to them - If you are trying to tell your players what they are doing wrong, while you are playing Casemiro and Mason Mount as a central midfield, they obviously are going to be less inclined to listen to you. Similarly if you publicly freeze out Jadon Sancho over a twitter remark that could have easily just been forgotten about, and then are playing Pellistri on the wing...regardless of if you are in the right (or how bad Sancho might be), players will look at this and think you don't have a f*cking clue what you're doing.
If the players don't think you know what you're doing, criticising them is only going to go one way. The same way it would if someone I considered to be incompetent started telling me why I was doing my job wrong. The only difference being they aren't going to get sacked when I don't listen to them.
I get that football used to be more physical and players are also more spoilt/hold more power now due to being paid more, agents being more involved etc...but the basic principle in management is the same imo, and not that different from being a manager of any group of people. Football players have not over the past 20 years morphed into a different species from the rest of the human race, and most good managers can and do criticise their players when it is needed.
Players will listen and take on board criticism if it is done constructively and IF they respect/trust their manager enough to think that they are better off listening to them - If you are trying to tell your players what they are doing wrong, while you are playing Casemiro and Mason Mount as a central midfield, they obviously are going to be less inclined to listen to you. Similarly if you publicly freeze out Jadon Sancho over a twitter remark that could have easily just been forgotten about, and then are playing Pellistri on the wing...regardless of if you are in the right (or how bad Sancho might be), players will look at this and think you don't have a f*cking clue what you're doing.
If the players don't think you know what you're doing, criticising them is only going to go one way. The same way it would if someone I considered to be incompetent started telling me why I was doing my job wrong. The only difference being they aren't going to get sacked when I don't listen to them.
His reference to Sir Alex is utter bollocks.
True, years ago SAF said that you can't treat two players similarly that you have to take into account their personalities. He also praised Phelan for that side of management, explaining that he was good at interacting with different players and would know how each players should be handled.
For him. Try that shit with Van Basten or Gullit and it would be a very different story
ChatGPT is not a research engine. Try Perplexity.
Yes given the culture was already set by then and Sancho got away with alot before Ten Hag even arrived.
Apologies, I just can’t make sense of what you’re saying. Your sentence was that “at clubs with better cultures Sancho doesn’t get away with what he pulled” - but Sancho didn’t get away with it here neither because he got banished and booted, so it doesn’t track. Players that step out of line at United have been shipped out. In fact, at clubs that have been more successful than United recently - they seem to be more lenient. A similar situation with Gasperini and Lookman just transpired at Atalanta, but rather than banishing and selling the player, he was back in the team next match day.
This isn’t specifically about you, but I have a theory that United fans haven’t fully adjusted to the notion that these days not playing for United is not the be all end all that it might have been in the past (if it ever was). Players have options and they are aware of this - so if a manager does something they don’t appreciate they will right or wrong defend themselves/voice their opinion because at worst - you’re going to be sold - that doesn’t necessarily translate into United having a poor culture that let’s players get away with disciplinary stuff, that other clubs don’t. Especially when the evidence suggests otherwise.
He did get away with it here, you are assuming what he pulled was the final social media stunt. He refused to play RW under Ole, he was upset about not getting the no7 shirt when Ronaldo came in, then under ETH he took half a season off during a time when the team was struggling and was training in the Netherlands. All this whilst being a top signing and one of the top earners, at a club with a proper culture he would have been booted out a lot sooner. Instead we placated him and tried to get it to work because we had paid so much money etc. This all led to him doing what he did, he was enabled his entire time at the club, up until the last flashpoint
We are starting to address said culture. But we are not there yet and it will take time. The culture at the club had been eroded over a long period alot of the things we are seeing lately are just the fruits of that and also the pain of trying to change it.
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Similarly, you're seemingly assuming these disciplinary issues don't happen elsewhere. Moreover, where is it substantiated that "he refused to play RW under Ole" - I've done a cursory google search and can't seem to find anything corroborating that. In fact, a MEN report says he was trialled on the right and played X amount of games there under Ole - that suggests he didn't refuse to do it, no?
He was trialled as a right winger in those first few weeks at the club, but it quickly became apparent to United that their right wing solution was actually better suited elsewhere on the pitch. Sancho played just eight times on the right in his debut season, compared with 27 on the left. It was the same case last season as well, with 10 appearances in the role he was signed for and 23 on the opposite flank. [source]
How is being "upset at not getting the number 7" an issue of any substance/worth mentioning? The same happened with Garnacho - players are not only idiotically superstitious - some have brands built around their numbers - not that any of it matters, but I don't get how being upset about not getting a number is something a player "pulled". Also, Sancho didn't just wake up and decide to take half a season off, though. That was a decision made by management at the club because he was seemingly/reportedly struggling with mental health issues, and he was sent to train and recover in a controlled environment. Again, how is this something a player pulled? Or a disciplinary issue to be booted out for?
He reacted not in the best manner to publicly criticism and got frozen and shipped out. A much sterner position than other clubs have taken in similar circumstances.
To really break it down:
United signed Sancho as their star signing of the season but relegated him to supporting staff (symbolized by giving the promised number 7 to Ronaldo instead).
United signed Sancho without a plan how to use him properly (the RW/LW question).
That happened before he kicked a ball for United and of course was a terrible start. Combined with the (for him) horrible summer tournament it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that he mentally struggled.
Also regarding your point about poor reaction to criticism: yes he reacted badly but I still think it's interesting to see how different things developed at Dortmund. Where he did pull the "scapegoat" argument before: they treated it as emotional complaints of a whiny crybaby and just ignored it. He returned with strong perfomances and that was it.
I think I know which club has a more forgiving culture and it isn't United.
Ten Nag, amarite folks?
Yep, ie. manage them. Some coaches seem to think their job is to be a drill sergeant. Ten Hag's comments sound like him making excuses for his own poor man management.
Case in point, it was also a bad move considering he would have known that Antony wouldn't have been available for a while because of his legal troubles in Brazil which was made public the week after if I remember correctly.
Which player ever got a manager sacked at United?
The signings ETH made here were fecking unbelievably bad.
Our transfers have been terrible post Fergie in general but his especially were fecking atrocious and we'll be counting the cost of them for years and years.
Antony
Casemiro
Mount
Hojlund
Onana
Zirkzee
All complete disasters. Obscenely expensive disasters.
Wherever he ends up would be wise to not give him any say in transfers.
Our transfers have been terrible post Fergie in general but his especially were fecking atrocious and we'll be counting the cost of them for years and years.
Antony
Casemiro
Mount
Hojlund
Onana
Zirkzee
All complete disasters. Obscenely expensive disasters.
Wherever he ends up would be wise to not give him any say in transfers.
I’m not assuming issues don’t happen elsewhere I am saying players have been getting away with it at United for too long and more than any other top club. This has been corroborated by both ex players and ex managers. Its also one of the reason ETH was tasked with altering the culture as a main part of his job, and why Amorim kept speaking about it when he arrived.
Relatively unheralded clubs reach CL semis with some frequency. Dortmund reached the final in 23/24. Villareal reached the semifinal in 21/22. Lyon and RB Leipzig reached the semifinals in 20/21. Roma reached the semifinals in 17/18. It's an accomplishment, but as a one-off it's not too impressive.
And that’s the truth. His accomplishments were overrated before he even came in. Ajax were much better run behind the scenes whilst he managed the club as well. We would have been better off taking Van Der Sar away from Ajax.
Sir Jim:
Me and few others spent entire summer arguing with people here that we are only signing some players because they are Dutch and barely survived from being attacked by his fans that it's not true. And we finally have our owner confirming it now. I wonder where all those people are now?
Me and few others spent entire summer arguing with people here that we are only signing some players because they are Dutch and barely survived from being attacked by his fans that it's not true. And we finally have our owner confirming it now. I wonder where all those people are now?
Drafting their apologies to you
Yup, I remember the hivemind here claiming it was all a coincidence and that they were actually signings suggested by the club that just happened to be Dutch
So close and yet so far.
Apparently Ten Hag was behind DeLigt and Mazraoui. But it was Ashworth who pushed for Zirkzee.
It was pretty obvious Ten Hag was having a say in our signings. A bunch of them were Dutch or played under him before. I don't understand anybody thinking that's a coincidence.
They probably should.
You probably weren't involved in argument with random Erik Ten Hag fanboys, trust me, it's a cage battle.
Shout out to all those who thought he should stay after the FA cup final. What a joke that was.
You get what you are saying isn't what Sir Jim said right?
He never said we only signed players 'because they are Dutch'. If you simply mean you were saying Erik Ten Hag was pushing for De LIgt, for example, that's likely true but it wouldn't have been without Ineos' blessing. Sir Jim literally starts the whole thing by saying it's never one person, it's a group who make decisions.
Probably the same who were part of Martial FC and thought Rashford should've had his contract extended. Absolute shithouses won't be seen around here for a while, not until we can't find a buyer for their goldenboy in summer anyway.
I mean, I literally wrote what he said. There isn't really much more explanation needed.
I rarely have the stamina for these protracted battles, I must admit.
Good for you. I am an idiot for being involved in it, I admit, but sometimes I can't help myself.
Very unprofessional for Rats to be dumping on ETH. Interesting to hear his response, the settlement contracts normally have confidentiality clauses.
there's no doubt EtH had a say on transfers and was blinded by an idea of bringing his former / Dutch players (and there conflict of interest with some of our purchases being represented by the same agent as ten Hag is a disgrace) but that's a pretty embarrassing comment to make by Ratcliff, considering he was already an owner. doesn't really ooze authority or professionalism
To be fair a lot of fans live very much in the moment and rate players and managers based on very recent form.
This is more of embarrassing towards the club than towards eth to be fair.
A managers job is to perform GIVEN the squad he has.. Its not the managers job to build the squad and to scout players he is not working with on a dailly basis.. Everyone has preferences, also ETH, but if a clubs allows the manager to spend millions on transfers while overrulling scouts, thats fully 100% on the club and the horribly led football organization.. The whole "Klopp wanted Brandt but got Salah" is a perfect example of how a sustainable club is ran..
Its 100% on United if we allowed eth to brings his own players.. How on earth is he supposed to have detailed info on players he hasnt worked with? He came straight from Ajax where he was 100% responsible for getting the best results with his current team, and immediately continued to United where he was 100% expected to work.with the squad om the pitch on day 1.. You have DoFs to focus on building the squad the manager has to work with..
Ofcourse managers can voice opinions, but this whole 'club transfer' vs 'manager transfer' is such bullshit.. And IF a club allows for a manager to bring in own players and overruling scouts, thats 100% the fault of the club and 0% fault of the manager.
And that was most of this forum, mind. The swerve on here was unbelievable. I still can't wrap my head around how a one-off game completely gave everyone collective amnesia
The mistake was allowing him to choose signings, not keeping him after you won the cup...
Clubs don't operate like that these days, criminal mismanagement pretty much. Who greenlighted Casemiro, Anthony, Hojlund and even Yoro for such bat shit mental wages / fees. They should be sacked.
Amorin has been worse, so shows ETH wasn't the problem.
Utd should have kept ETH or Ruud till the end of the season. Ultimately the damage has been done by the senior management green lighting ETH signings.
Outside of his horrendous signings, I do like ETH but he had the charisma of a potato.