One of the worst takes I've read on here in a while.
Erik ten Hag | Currently unemployed
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One of the worst takes I've read on here in a while.
What confuses me is why are people on this forum singling out DDG and Ronaldo? Are they saying AWB, Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof, Fred, McT, Rashford are some kind of masters of high press football?
There will always be victims for the type of football the likes of Ten Hag wants to play.
Pep didn't make it work with Hart and Toure or the mediocre fullback he had in his 1st season. Same thing happened with Klopp, he changed the whole team before starting to play consistently great football and compete against City.
Rangnick hasn't managed seriously in almost a decade. He's probably better at teaching and influencing coaches than managing games and players.
There is a real art to effective pressing, it's a bunch of complex synchronised patterns of movement of the 10 outfield players and if one player presses too early or too late or someone's positioning is a few yards out then the opposition will be able to play through the press.
The idea of pressing is one thing, coaching it in 2022 is another.
IF it was just as simple as saying "go out and press em lads!" we'd all be top managers
SAF was an attacking manager but he'd struggle to play attacking football if he was using his methods from 2013 in 2022, football moves on.
There’s a lot more to managing a team than tactics and coaching. Klopp’s not just a great manager because he’s good at tactics. He has a squad of players who will run themselves into the ground for him. And they’ll do that because they’re fully invested in him as a manager.
Where Rangnick seems to have fallen down is in getting the players to buy into his “project”. A lot of that is on the players but there‘s an art to the man management of modern footballers and that’s what he seems to be lacking. Understandably, as he’s been out of the game so long. We have to hope that Ten Haag is better at fostering an effective team spirit. It obviously helps that his recent record as a manager will be a lot more inspirational to the players than Rangnick’s.
Younger legs are capable of it.
Are you suggesting that Rangnick managed to coach and implement his pressing style before his first game and that it was figured out within 40 minutes of football so badly that it was never seen again??
We pressed for 35-40 minutes and were then knackered. It wasn't a case of it being found out. The players clearly haven't taken to Rangnick for whatever reason (I have my suspicions as to why and its not because Rangnick is a dinosaur) and he has basically reverted to something simple that they know. Its not very effective, the players are nonplussed about champions league it appears and we are just limping towards the end of the season.
I don't doubt that ETH is a much better manager than Rangnick but there is not a popsicles chance in hell that if half our players look 10x better next season that its just ETHs masterful tactics. These players have been a disgrace to the badge for a while now and very few of them have given it their all. If you watched Chelsea vs RM last night you would have seen what commitment, energy, effort and dedication was. From both teams. I haven't seen that from United in god knows how many years. Part of that is that they are a bunch of players who know their roles and what they are supposed to be doing and part of it is that they just have a better mentality than our players and a huge desire to win.
I hazard a guess and say Rangnick does know how to coach a modern day press considering he did it a few years ago at Leipzig. The issue is as others have pointed out our players either can't or won't do it whether that's down to fitness or attitude i don't know.
The main issue is that it takes repetition and time which isn't really something that you have during the season. You also need to know your players and understand how to communicate with each players, what they understand and how they understand it. Coaching is teaching, it takes time and technique.
Edit: I forgot to mention that at Leipzig he was alread at the club, he didn't implement a new style when he was a caretaker, that style already existed and was implemented by previous managers like Hasenhuttl.
He stepped in as a caretaker a few years ago. And hopefully you are not attributing their system to one person alone.
You can be the best manager in the world, but if the players don't want to work or listen to you, it's not going to be effective.
These are the starting lineups in the final games before Pep and Klopp took over City and Liverpool:
They might be great coaches, but they weren't getting to where they got by playing Otamendi, Clyne, Leiva and Navas. Nor would they be with Wan-Bissaka, Maguire and Rashford.
They signed players with the attributes and mentality to fit the roles they needed and that's what Ten Hag will need to do as well if he's to be successful. Guys who have either been unable or unwilling to work hard and play well under a succession of managers, aren't going to suddenly transform under him.
These are the starting lineups in the final games before Pep and Klopp took over City and Liverpool:
They might be great coaches, but they weren't getting to where they got by playing Otamendi, Clyne, Leiva and Navas. Nor would they be with Wan-Bissaka, Maguire and Rashford.
They signed players with the attributes and mentality to fit the roles they needed and that's what Ten Hag will need to do as well if he's to be successful. Guys who have either been unable or unwilling to work hard and play well under a succession of managers, aren't going to suddenly transform under him.
DDG for sure. Ronaldo, I don't think so.
ETH is not Ragnick or Poch, he doesn't use high press as the end all be all. ETH is about creating half spaces using player movements. The press is used as a defensive mechanism, more than an identity.
Ronaldo has to be on the best players in our squad at creating space and making runs that opens up defenses. He doesn't have to be pressing monster to be able to work in a ETH system. Haller for example isn't a pressing mastermind either. Sometimes, just closing down passing lanes is just as important as harrying the opposition.
If anything I see Ronaldo being dropped to the wing similar to a Tadic role. Different players, but that is just to illustrate that ETH can make them work. Ronaldo would fit in nicely as the wide forward who cuts in and shoots while the other wide forward(Sancho) acts as a playmaker. Ronaldo' versatility also makes him a huge asset as he can play on the left/right/center.
Now I know you might think that he lacks pace, but in an ETH system, it's not about the pace, but the movement into these half spaces.
I know the system was implemented by previous managers and was just a caretaker and i'm not saying he's responsible for it. But unless he just copied previous managers tactics and coaching down to a tee he will have made his own adjustments, even if they were small. If he did do nothing of his own then yes he has no modern experience but if he had some of his own ideas then you can't say he hasn't even if the groundwork was laid for him.
I didn't realise that there were so many coaching professionals here. Some of you really know your footballing shite.
Surprised you are so free to be contributing here on our humble little forum rather than out there coaching professional footballers.
Surprised you are so free to be contributing here on our humble little forum rather than out there coaching professional footballers.
What happened?
This. As much love fans have for certain players we won’t be challenging for a title until 9-10 players in the first XI is changed.
I would go further - whoever is not buying or or show committment will be sold in the next transfer window. Bye
Absolutely. No more reports coming out saying players don’t like the training methods etc. whoever isn’t buying into ETH vision and plan needs to be shown the door. Players who earn millions a week and playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world should have no complaints what so ever.
The biggest part is that our players lack the technical and physical qualities that the players of City, Pool and other top teams have. We lack in desire and tactical awareness but improving that can only get us so far. Only Varane and maybe Bruno would get into their teams.
No coaching in the world would turn AWB into a Cancelo, Maguire into a van Dijk, Fred into De Bruyne, Sancho into Salah, McTominay into Rodri and so on.
We are so behind the top teams that my brain hurts. Ten Hag will have to start to build a team that can challenge for top 4.
Can’t wait to call this guy a Pep Guardiola is my idol when we draw the opening game next season 
Its normal that players will have to get used to a new tactic, coach or training method. However, most important is that ETH`s superiors will back their newly appointed manager and not the top players. Ten Hag will definetly find some opposition when he starts, the key is how the board positions themselves. ETH isn`t a coach who will run out of the gates with the football he wants to play, he is going to need time. At Ajax he worked with formidable support from Overmars and Van der Sar, even though Ten Hag also faced some bad press.
As an Ajax fan I hope he will do your club justice and I really hope he will succeed. He has a lot of strengths (eye for detail, personal approach to players, tactical insight, ability to work together well with others, ability to make players function better and become better players), but he also has some weak points and some things that have not crystalled out yet (can he work with big star players, can he handle the intense media, even compared to Ajax, can he deal with a board that might work against him?)
He had some weird substitutions in the beginning at Ajax that left a lot of people surprised, but at the same time he then had a talk with the squad and was able to adjust certain things to their likings. It shows he is quite flexible. This nonsense that people might find his English or charisma below par, I was one of the people who thought so at first when he joined Ajax, but in honesty that vaporates when you see what he actually brought to Ajax. I`m curious who he will bring in, at Ajax that has been very hit and miss, but I assume at Man Utd the pool you can pick players from is bigger and that should increase the succes ratio normally, when you know what you want to achieve and how you want to play. And that is something Ten Hag knows very well.
Weren’t these the clowns who claimed Rio was interested in the role and Rio himself denied it moments later? And they’re saying Giggs of all people was also contacted?
Yeah they’re chatting shit. Tier BS source.
RVP has been linked to joining the setup by loads, seems the only concern is whether he can obtain a work permit or not
I’m not really going to second guess or moan about who ten Hag retains or lets go. See what he can do with these players.
You're right, he isn't really. Yet even he offers a lot more off the ball than Ronaldo does. Over twices as many "pressures", nearly twice as many tackles in the attacking third, nearly twice as many passes blocked, etc.
Tactics matter but there's no magic tactic that will stop a player in the bottom 1% of strikers for pressures being a big problem in a pressing system. At best you're having to constantly work around a player who is as bad as you could likely get at the defining trait of what you're trying to do.
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Agree. Think the players have collectively decided Rangnick is an old fool so are just phoning it in now.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what he can do but, even though we have a load of players leaving on free transfers, our inability to shift players out the door makes me worried that he's going to have to make do with what he's got for a fair few seasons yet.
Somebody posted a screenshot of the Ole side that lost 4-0 to Everton and the quote of his after the match that some players won't be here at the club much longer. 9 of those players are technically still at the club
Really hope the structure of the club is altered and will support him as much as possible.
Somebody posted a screenshot of the Ole side that lost 4-0 to Everton and the quote of his after the match that some players won't be here at the club much longer. 9 of those players are technically still at the club
Really hope the structure of the club is altered and will support him as much as possible.
Do you think you could coach a modern pressing system at the highest level?
Not being sarcastic, a genuine question.
I honestly think they are just mentally fragile. There’s huge pressure playing for this club, and confidence is also so key. To me, Rangnick was getting an improvement from them, but I maintain that we were too low on firepower and also very unlucky in January with refereeing decisions. At the time, we were playing well, but dropping points due to not taking chances or being ref robbed. To me, along with the media hysteria that comes with dropped points, they stopped believing in themselves.
We battered Boro in the Cup but couldn’t convert, and then got robbed by the ref. We then battered Burnley and got robbed by the ref. We let a 2 goal lead slip at Villa, we let one slip against Saints. We lacked goals in the team with too many unavailable forwards, but I also think that if a few fine margins had gone our way it would have given the squad the belief they needed at a crucial time. Right now, the performances have gone too, but it is important for the self-confirmation for you to get your reward when you are doing the right things. Especially when you are as delicate as this squad due to just overcoming a tough spell. To me, clearly performances improved under Rangnick, but we ended up drawing all the games we should have won. After that, everyone visibly stopped believing. I think those results would have gone differently if Cavani and Greenwood were available for example, and that’s just the small detail that could have changed the entire narrative.
Salah wasn’t Salah when he was 22. Sancho has massive potential, he can become an exceptional player. ETH can work with numerous members of the squad. Shame a lot of fans have decided that everyone needs to go and they hate them all, as ETH could do with a wave of positivity and support coming into the club, not a bunch of fans who want all the players sold and the stadium torn down, then the owners to sell the club all at the same time.
Many players will leave United after this season and it will be United’s best chance since SAF to start a new project.
ETH is the right manager for us only if the owners and the board finally realise our squad isn’t of top -4 quality and understand United have to go all in on the transfer market and for once go for a change wholeheartedly.
I first of all believe in ETH’s ability to build a new team. He definitely needs 5-6 new players from the beginning in order to get a fresh start and distance himself and the players from “today’s shitty squad”.
If United doesn’t go all in for a change, I think another managers than ETH is an better option (better motivator or in game management).
ETH is the right manager for us only if the owners and the board finally realise our squad isn’t of top -4 quality and understand United have to go all in on the transfer market and for once go for a change wholeheartedly.
I first of all believe in ETH’s ability to build a new team. He definitely needs 5-6 new players from the beginning in order to get a fresh start and distance himself and the players from “today’s shitty squad”.
If United doesn’t go all in for a change, I think another managers than ETH is an better option (better motivator or in game management).
Yeah I agree. I don't think they decided Rangnick wasn't good so would ignore him. I think Rangnick has had an exceptionally unlucky period.
- First of all, he's an interim manager. Teams are only motivated as long as there is something to play for. They'll still put effort in, but at that level, it's hard to match up in motivation when you have nothing to play for and the manager is changing at the end of the season.
- As you said, some unlucky games and results, but we were beginning to improve across all metrics and get some momentum, despite some key injuries
- Just as we were getting momentum, the Greenwood thing. It can't be understated. Right at the end of the transfer window as we got rid of Martial and were pinning future hopes on Greenwood. Goes from a star to a complete 0 and basically cut from the squad. Our form took a nose dive after that with the squad being rattled, but also all of a sudden we had a shortage of attackers so it was difficult to do anything
- The second we lost to Atletico, the season was over
ETH cannot go out and buy 5-6 quality players but hopefully 3. There is enough quality in the squad to build a decent team boosted by first class coaching, for a change. But to overtake City or Pool will take at least 3 seasons, probably longer or even much longer and then we have Newcastle on the rise. I am convinced that we have finally got ourselves a great manager so from that perspective I am very positive. On the other hand there are few players in the squad whom I rate as indispensable.
I've no arguments for giving a manager full control over transfers. And though I think LVG wasn't as bad a manager as Ole, in terms of the market he was dire. We sold a lot of decent players for almost no money at all.
I do want a manager to have full control over whether a player is shipped out or not though, as that will roll back this player power. That doesn't mean we should be giving away players as we did with Hernandez, Nani, Evans, Rafael, Zaha, etc. It's healthy that both the recruitment team and the manager have a veto on incoming players. I would like him to liaise with Rangnick (who is best placed) over the characters in the dressing room, and I don't think there should be any contract renewals without the go-ahead from ten Hag.
I agree that we're a commercial club, more than a football club, but my take is perhaps very different to van Gaal's reasoning. Rangnick really a good point about needing those physical players, with aggression. He was being quite polite, but those players aren't traditionally the higher profile ones. In hindsight, most of our bigger transfers post SAF have been more about image than about footballing vision, more about the short-term than a long-term vision.
In any case, I expect ten Hag to be quite intelligent, he'll be well aware of the shit show this club has been for years now and he'll be aware of the managerial position being a bit of a poisoned chalice, so he'll have asked for certain assurances. I don't believe he'll come in here and give everyone a their fourth new opportunity.
Can anyone tell me what the main principles of ten Haag are, with evidence ? Feel like we have one of the most legendary pressing managers of all time and aren't pressing. I think people had an idea of what lvg, Mou and even ole had done prior and it looked nothing like what we saw at United. Is eth possession focussed numero uno or press or what? I hope people don't say he is all things, because that just won't fly in such a tough league in my belief, hopefully be excels at one thing
Those are questions that have been going through my head as well, and it's not easy to predict what ten Hag will do. And I say that because the way he's shifted certain players around from position to position to add more variety to his attacking arsenal is very impressive and a idea straight out of Rinus Michels and Cruijff's total football play book, which was to disrupt the opponents defensive structure via positional rotation.
So if i'm to give you my opinion (take it with a pinch of salt), i'd say that we have to first try and understand what ten Hag will attempt to implement. And what he will try and implement is a set of ideals, which he will want to build the team around, and not build the team around any individual player(s). And those ideals are a coming together of different footballing cultures that form a brand of attacking football that requires the team to dominate the ball with purpose in possession, whilst maintaining a high octane/high intensity game both with and without the ball in a vertical axis with counter pressing capabilities. And he will want to do that ideally with the aim to play the game in the opponents half.
So from the players we have at the club, we have to try and understand who fits best into the above way of playing the game. And the above requires players who will have to provide a certain level of technical ability, as well as a certain level of intensity for the idea in question to manifest itself on match-days. So I will attempt to give you my opinion on what he will attempt to do with players already at the club. And i'm going to assume Pogba will have left us by the time ten Hag arrives.
It wouldn't surprise me if de Gea is left out in favour of Henderson who has the edge over de Gea when it comes to sweeping and playing out from the back. Neither are great in that regard though.
I think the fullbacks are a problem for us in different ways imo, and we could do with a fullback who can potentially provide the half-back option, as well as the wide overlapping threat in the wide space. Shaw I think is likely fine for now, but it wouldn't surprise me to see Ethan Laird potentially challenge for a spot at RB starting from the preseason tour.
I think the McFred duo will run it's course as a mainstay in midfield, but that will come about with the signing of a DM which will open up opportunities for Jimmy Garner and Hannibal Mejbri, who could be utilised next to the DM in a slightly more adventurous role, along with Fred who will likely also be a option.
It'll be interesting to see what ten Hag does with Fernandes because such a risk taker is probably best utilised on either flank cutting in or in a false #9 role. Hannibal as the AM with Fernandes on the right/left or in a false #9 role could be a option.
And i'm probably in the minority here but it also wouldn't surprise me to see Martial come to life as the centre forward under the guidance of ten Hag.
I'm obviously going to be wrong with several new signings that will come into the first 11. But from the players already at the club, i'd go with the below. Maguire and Lindelof could easily be flipped around.
----------------Henderson-------------
Dalot---Varane---Lindelof---Shaw
----------Garner---------Fred------
Bruno------Hannibal-------Sancho
--------------Martial--------
Agreed.