Fine margins with enough time in the game to create more chances but nope let's take off Bruno says Erik
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Erik ten Hag | 2024/25
- Thread starter Cheimoon
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Fine margins with enough time in the game to create more chances but nope let's take off Bruno says Erik
They have had 3 managers in that time as well.
Definitely chickened out
3 seasons and still no visible plan on how we want to play. But sure maybe he'll get it right next week
Pep Guardiola is my idol
Pep Guardiola is my idol
You certainly aren't, "dude". I'm sure you'll defend Mr. "Standards" after Liverpool. Hopefully you'll have something more substantial to say.
When you have no system, you're relying on players delivering stroke of geniouses. Sadly we have very little player who can deliver.
A good system made a better sum of their part, they can get by with mediocre winger because the other 10 are making movement to allow them to perform. We'll have to either hope our Rashboy dribble through 3 players to score or nothing at all.
This.
It was hilarious how some were deluding themselves after a wallpaper over cracks win last week that ETH has changed the system (when he himself admitted that the system is actually from last season) and that he has fixed up alot of issues from last season which as we saw yesterday, is a load of rubbish. Marginal improvements aside, it is the same old issues from last season that are still evident.
He hasn't learnt a single thing about what it takes to have success in the league, and instead of adapting/innovating, he is doubling down on a flawed game plan.
Guardialo like spending, Moyes like football and results.
Nothing in these 2 seasons+ shouts that this man is a Manchester United football manager. I am a Fergie worshiper and it's unfathomable to me a United team dropping deep in the last quarter of a 1-1 game and not going for a win. We have done this consistently under ETH and it's no wonder we have conceded so many late goals to draw or lose matches. It's irksome watching a defender or a defensive midfielder come in when we should be going for it at that time. What was the point of the Maguire sub anyway? He is one of our better defenders and headers of the ball. Tailor made for situations where we pussy out and try to defend the last part of the game. It's mindbogglingly stupid and counter intuitive to take him out of the game at that stage.
Also, he doesn't rotate and will run the first team into the ground again. I was sceptical from the Community Shield itself. Mainoo, Licha and Fernandes just had come back from the international break. They were regulars for their teams during the break and two of them went far in the respective tournaments they participated in. They had about a week of training. Why did they all start in that glorified friendly? Even if they did, why did Mainoo play 60 minutes and Fernandes & Licha play the entire length of the game in their first games out? Don't we usually give players 45 minutes in a game to begin with? He is going to keep playing the same XI until someone breaks down and then they'll be replaced. That has been his way and that'll remain his way.
We have a good squad now and we need a good manager to get the best out of them. I know "it's only 2 games", "Kneejerk reaction" blah blah blah. We have seen him repeat the same things again & again for more than 2 seasons now and we'll continue to see them this season too. May be there will be a favorable cup draw and another mickey mouse cup win (this time after spending 600m+), but this man is not going to take us anywhere in the league or in the Champions league. He is the Dutch Moyes.
Nothing in these 2 seasons+ shouts that this man is a Manchester United football manager. I am a Fergie worshiper and it's unfathomable to me a United team dropping deep in the last quarter of a 1-1 game and not going for a win. We have done this consistently under ETH and it's no wonder we have conceded so many late goals to draw or lose matches. It's irksome watching a defender or a defensive midfielder come in when we should be going for it at that time. What was the point of the Maguire sub anyway? He is one of our better defenders and headers of the ball. Tailor made for situations where we pussy out and try to defend the last part of the game. It's mindbogglingly stupid and counter intuitive to take him out of the game at that stage.
Also, he doesn't rotate and will run the first team into the ground again. I was sceptical from the Community Shield itself. Mainoo, Licha and Fernandes just had come back from the international break. They were regulars for their teams during the break and two of them went far in the respective tournaments they participated in. They had about a week of training. Why did they all start in that glorified friendly? Even if they did, why did Mainoo play 60 minutes and Fernandes & Licha play the entire length of the game in their first games out? Don't we usually give players 45 minutes in a game to begin with? He is going to keep playing the same XI until someone breaks down and then they'll be replaced. That has been his way and that'll remain his way.
We have a good squad now and we need a good manager to get the best out of them. I know "it's only 2 games", "Kneejerk reaction" blah blah blah. We have seen him repeat the same things again & again for more than 2 seasons now and we'll continue to see them this season too. May be there will be a favorable cup draw and another mickey mouse cup win (this time after spending 600m+), but this man is not going to take us anywhere in the league or in the Champions league. He is the Dutch Moyes.
This has similarities with LVG football. Too many pointless passing around GK and defenders and sideway passing even when we are chasing games. The build up for attacking is too slow and predictable. We wasted so many time with Onana taking forever to take simple kick. LVG used to have many 0-0 draws and struggling to score goal too. But one thing for sure, LVG has better defending.
Lvg didnt choose that. Our players are just too dumb to understand complicated total football.
To be fair his method is very complicated few teams managed to implement it.
I don’t blame INEOS, they had no choice after the FA Cup win. The fans were overwhelmingly on ETH’s side after that. If they fired him after that, the backlash would be huge and the new manager would have it very hard right from the start. Not extending his contract was the right thing to do, and it shows that they don’t really have much faith in him. He’ll be gone pretty soon, the only question is if they try out RvN first for a few months or go straight for Tuchel.
Arsenal won back to back fa cups under Wenger not long ago and that wasn’t considered success. Liverpool regularly won multiple cups in 00’s and wasn’t considered a success. How far have your standards dropped?
At least we competed well and almost earned a draw against a Brighton that we lost to quite resoundingly the previous 4 times. One has to see the improvements and the process that ETH is putting in place and the progressive patterns of play that are responsible for this instead of impatiently calling for his head and casting doubts on the team this early in the season.
Yep. He's a temp with a chance to make it permanent, but I really doubt he'll get lucky to pull this off one more time.
Not sure if this counts, but he's really good at solving problems he caused himself. For example he reverted back to Oleball in few last games of the season, what was enough to get some good results and win a trophy. But it's nothing we've not seen before as a style of football.
I really don't care about the results, we could go on a run and be in a good spot and all, my main worry is performance levels, I feel the some players aren't giving 100%, the collective performance levels is really low.
It really doesn't matter at this stage what tactics are employed or who starts and whatnot, the players themselves need to elevate their performance levels and Ten Hag should use his selections to ensure players who underperform are benched.
It really doesn't matter at this stage what tactics are employed or who starts and whatnot, the players themselves need to elevate their performance levels and Ten Hag should use his selections to ensure players who underperform are benched.
Eerily similar start to this season as last.
Somewhat unconvincing 1-0 win at home to a mid table club followed by a defeat in a tricky away game against opponents with a new manager in a game we played well In patches but ultimately probably deserved to lose.
ETH under pressure already. Can't get my head round some of his subs yesterday, and it was the usual chaos ball particuly in the second half. It's early season and there is plenty ty of football to be played but I'm worried already.
Somewhat unconvincing 1-0 win at home to a mid table club followed by a defeat in a tricky away game against opponents with a new manager in a game we played well In patches but ultimately probably deserved to lose.
ETH under pressure already. Can't get my head round some of his subs yesterday, and it was the usual chaos ball particuly in the second half. It's early season and there is plenty ty of football to be played but I'm worried already.
I think we need to sign perhaps another three of his ex players. Enough so we can field a full starting eleven with Hag players. Then it will be time to sack him and give the next manager something fun to work with. Heh.
BHA's coach has had two matches, whereas our coach is already on two trophies!
I'd say he removed Bruno because the attack had failed, and Mctom was a gamble. Depressing state of affairs but profligacy usually forces your hand.
If you want to try and win, that is.
Always disappointing to see our own shit on our achievements, only so they can crow 'I told
you so'.
A good post as it's a timely reminder of the dangers of reactionary hyperbolism.
You should blame Ineos if they put their reputation first, especially to quell fan disquiet.
Tuchel would absolutely be the best candidate to replace EtH, yes.
This post is an excellent example of why the sole reason behind the ETH support is the genuine fear of being one of those "ETH out" when he inevitably turns into Sir Alex. It's a specially designed PTSD just for United fans. Because after 600m spent as we have started his year three, where being on course to losing 1/3 of league matches and failing to hit double-digits GD+ on average, any negativity towards ETH should arrogantly be met with references to the run-of-the-mill Sir Alex. Even if you don't genuinely believe he is a new Sir Alex, always leave the door open to the scenario that "just give him time, look at Sir Alex in '89" is all it takes. After all, we are a brilliant and successful cup team, making progress every single day.
I wouldn’t attribute it to performance levels.
Theres 3 men unmarked at the back post for the Brighton winner yesterday. Maguire and Martinez leave Welbeck unmarked in the middle for the first. Like why does Martinez not step across because Welbeck is always going to get the cross before the man at the back post. Defensive coaching is obviously lacking. I cant imagine league 2 teams leaving 3 men unmarked at the back post at a 95th minute corner.
Looking at the match of the day footage they highlight multiple times where our players missed easy balls to put people through one on one with the brighton keeper, or where the forwards made runs and the midfield and defence didn’t play the ball to them and they ended up offside.
This seems symptomatic of players just making ad hoc runs and the rest of the team not being trained to be actively looking for them. Brighton were playing a high line which suited Rashford and Garnacho but we just never made use of it. If there was any structure to the attack then those runs would have been deliberate and we’d have looked to play them in time and time again.
Coaching at the business ends of the pitch just looks horrible at the moment.
This is a year liverpool without klopp and chelsea struggling. We seems to have amassed some decent players at last. We having top footballing upper management too. This season is a great opportunity to cement top three spot and go for guaranteed CL. That will improve the clubs pull of elite players, but we have ETH still on the helm. With him, 10+ goal difference would be a miracle. Nevermind title challenge. Qe never learn.
Fair comment.
A club leadership making decisions based on fan opinion and something as random as a cup run is not fit for purpose.
The November international break (11–19 November) will be when Ineos take stock and make some decisions, I reckon. We'll be 11 games into the Premier League and will have completed 4/8 of the league phase Europa League matches at that point - more than enough to gauge how the season is likely to go if everything remains the same and probably the last point at which Europa League and top 4 will potentially still be salvageable under a new manager.
Everyone has made the assumption that RVN will be first in line to replace Ten Hag and that's a distinct possibility (although René Hake is arguably the more accomplished manager of the two). If someone like Tuchel is still jobless, though, he might prove a tempting option to stabilise performances and bring some control to games (his reputation as a cup manager might also make him more tempting, if we still fancy our chances in the Europa League at that stage).
I never feel comfortable saying we should fire a manager because none of have any idea what is going on behind the scenes. However, I really fail to see what positive impact he’s having on game days. There’s nothing promising in how our play has developed since he joined and his decisions have been highly questionable.
I gave him plenty of leeway knowing how badly run the club was when he joined and because he sounded like he had exacting standards in interviews, so much so that Keane seemed to like him, but my patience had run out.
I think INEOS were obviously keen to replace him in the summer but not better candidate emerged.
He’s never going to get us dominating games. Time to gamble on a young prodigy who just might elevate us to that level
I gave him plenty of leeway knowing how badly run the club was when he joined and because he sounded like he had exacting standards in interviews, so much so that Keane seemed to like him, but my patience had run out.
I think INEOS were obviously keen to replace him in the summer but not better candidate emerged.
He’s never going to get us dominating games. Time to gamble on a young prodigy who just might elevate us to that level
Now that’s it’s nearly 24hrs since our loss and I’ve calmed down a bit I’ll give a bit more of my opinion.
Yes I do see a bit more structure on what he wants to implement. The press was good for about 30mins or so especially Mount, he was leading that. But from it we really didint cause them issues, no clear cut chances but making mistakes happen out of our press.
It was a bad lineup yesterday, Amad I feel sorry for the loss of his mam, but should not have started. Rashford just has not got that pace anymore and looks like he just doesn’t want to be there. The PR won’t stand this year, he has to play much better and score more this season, he’s 27 now, prime years beginning.
Its as clear as daylight midfield is where we need reinforcements, a Roy Keane type, someone to control the game but also someone to speed it up. There were times last weekend and yesterday, we had the ball and we just played the slow pass, or when onana had it we wouldn’t put on the boosters and run for him to launch it to one of our players. Just the slow pass out to Martinez or Maguire. Not convinced on Onana also.
Mazza has played two games now and De Ligt off the bench. he has had game time now but De Ligt needs to start over Maguire, he’s more agile and a better round defender. This Maguire resurgence is a myth, he will always be slow.
ETH needs to sort this out, possession is good but what you do with it counts. He brought in RVN to sort out the attack and I saw only glimpses of it yesterday. Yes I know it’s early in the season but if we are to get top 4 we need everything to click a lot more and quickly, otherwise we will fall behind the other contenders and that is simply not good enough two years in a row. If we don’t see it soon, Oct/Nov it’s p45 time.
Ashworth and Co I’m sure will have thought of this, we have pool next weekend, Southampton and Palace after the break. Games after the break we should be winning and winning comfortably.
Yes I do see a bit more structure on what he wants to implement. The press was good for about 30mins or so especially Mount, he was leading that. But from it we really didint cause them issues, no clear cut chances but making mistakes happen out of our press.
It was a bad lineup yesterday, Amad I feel sorry for the loss of his mam, but should not have started. Rashford just has not got that pace anymore and looks like he just doesn’t want to be there. The PR won’t stand this year, he has to play much better and score more this season, he’s 27 now, prime years beginning.
Its as clear as daylight midfield is where we need reinforcements, a Roy Keane type, someone to control the game but also someone to speed it up. There were times last weekend and yesterday, we had the ball and we just played the slow pass, or when onana had it we wouldn’t put on the boosters and run for him to launch it to one of our players. Just the slow pass out to Martinez or Maguire. Not convinced on Onana also.
Mazza has played two games now and De Ligt off the bench. he has had game time now but De Ligt needs to start over Maguire, he’s more agile and a better round defender. This Maguire resurgence is a myth, he will always be slow.
ETH needs to sort this out, possession is good but what you do with it counts. He brought in RVN to sort out the attack and I saw only glimpses of it yesterday. Yes I know it’s early in the season but if we are to get top 4 we need everything to click a lot more and quickly, otherwise we will fall behind the other contenders and that is simply not good enough two years in a row. If we don’t see it soon, Oct/Nov it’s p45 time.
Ashworth and Co I’m sure will have thought of this, we have pool next weekend, Southampton and Palace after the break. Games after the break we should be winning and winning comfortably.
You are not wrong about the coaching but what I observed since last season and it persists this season is performance levels, players make mistakes all the time in attacking and defensive situations and it can happen to anyone, but what really upsets me is throughout the game we didn't threaten them enough or dominate by winning our duels and pressing properly as a unit, it feels like opponents find it easy to play against us simply by application and hard work and some focus, mid table teams are able to pin us down for long periods and I am just like wtf is going on, you said yourself Brighton were playing highline and to me, that sounds like they are confident we won't cause them enough trouble if they deploy such tactic, I suspect they would go deeper when they face City or Arsenal or even Villa.
Or, it could be EtH is shit at coaching, I mean see this new coach at Brighton, they are performing very well in the short time he's been there, maybe a new coach is what we need.
That time to gamble should have been in the summer, for me. There will be no more elite managers suddenly available within 6 to 12 months, probably less options as there were quite a few options in the summer. What are they going to do, go back to Tuchel cap in hand? Go to De Zerbi and tell them that he's the man they actually wanted without looking like they're just out of ideas now? It was a stupid decision in my opinion.
Until he fixes the midfield he has no chance of being successful. Right now his solution is to play Mount alongside Bruno in this double press formation to provide some cover and legs for Mainoo and Casemiro. Either we play much better when Zirkzee or Rasmus lead the line and Mount gets dropped or much more likely it starts to look like last season where thanks to Bruno roaming and losing the ball in dangerous areas our midfield get shredded easily and we end up with end to end Ping pong/kamikaze style football.
Did not get that at all from the posts.
Thought they was clever enough to state EtH was not some new Ferguson and clarified any comparison was based on the religious cultists amongst our support, who would demand a manager, in his first season with so much nonsense going on around him, be sacked a week after he won the club's first trophy in six years.
It's the same as those devout supporters demanding Ferguson be removed in the late 80s.
I've noticed the poster bemoans 'tactical naivety', indeed, 'the biggest tactical naivety he'd ever seen' whilst demanding we sack a manger and not recommend a practical replacement. Refused outright to assess the role of injuries, too. Likely thinks that is on the 'medical team'.
Encouraging Ineos to 'gamble' with managers is dangerous folly, and would justify the likes of Ashworth in hiring Southgate. Or Woodward giving Ole the job full- time.
Practical solutions, only, not knee-jerk sackings and hopeful punts.
The serious problem at United is chance conversion.
It's all well and good to dominate midfield, but we need to put whatever we create away.
Happens often. We'll not take chances and eventually get punished as the frustration grows. Leaving three players unmarked at a corner yesterday is not something coached.
Yesterday's subs were curious. Went in a goal down despite playing well. EtH made the right subs but bringing on McToM was quite clear the forward line had busted, and needed The Lancastrian Highlander to emerge and nick one for us. It's worked before but really ought never have to. But profligacy will force our hand.
Hiring RvN is quite clear EtH does not trust the forward line, and nor should he. We are still profligate.
Sacking EtH and taking a hopeful punt on, for example, Glasner, doesn't and won't change the clear mentality issues at play.
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Chance conversion is a problem. Rashford, Bruno, Garnacho and Rasmus/Zirkzee are our main goal threats and they are all wasteful. The latter three can hopefully improve but I have little hope for the other two, I was ok with the Mctom and Antony subs , Amad looked gassed and Bruno was playing like crap. Didn't like the defensive subs though. Added uncertainty and confusion into the defense which cost us big time.
Plus it's perfectly arguable that if Bruno had played last season in his usual position, without being shifted countless times and at times he would play four positions in one game, McTominay wouldn't even match his impact. Bruno is our most creative and impactful player but the way he is managed is horrific.
People mentioning fine margins etc. Yep yesterday nearly went our way. But so many games being fine margins isn't a plan, isn't sustainable, and after three years to still have so little control in matches is woeful coaching and management.
Very much feeling apathy and indifference for the season. Just a question of when, not if.
I'm not totally disheartened yet, I want to see a few of the future starters start and a better first 11 before I totally lose it. But as someone who still thought long term it made sense for Ten Hag to go even after the cup win, I think I'm already viewing this season through a different lense anyway.
The bolded part is very valid point. I'd argue one time our pressing worked really good was with Fred and Weghorst in the team, it caused a lot of turnovers that led to goals or at least dangerous situations. That was EFFECTIVE pressing, not bodies running around for the sake of it (Bruno, Hojlund kind).
Now, I still question this "we want to press high" approach. It's very clear our pressing structure relies on Mount, but once everyone is fit there isn't even a place in starting XI for him (although I would suggest rotating him and Bruno). So are we going to be a high pressing team only for the period when Mason is playing? Not that it's super effective anyway as you pointed out.
Very interesting thread on Twitter, quite promising despite the doom & gloomers