Erik ten Hag | 2024/25

Erik ten Hag

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Drainy said:
No we lost so everything is the same as last season
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No, we pressed well, so even though we still lost and created fewer chances everything is all great this season
 
Clearly something is developing in terms of our style have play, although the loudest pundits (whether it’s due to thickness, bias or just a desire to kick the clubs like Scholes, Carragher etc don’t want to acknowledge it.

The frustrating thing for me though is his win or die approach to games - take a fecking point sometimes. Losses harm the teams morale and invite more pressure on them in a way draws don’t.

A point away at Brighton is not terrible, and putting together a few games unbeaten will build the teams confidence when we really need it.

A loss two games into the season in such a fashion is really damaging, he needs to realise when to just park the bus and accept a point.
 
Chance creation is the bigger problem than chance conversion. Our players aren’t good finishers, but it looks worse because they get so few chances a game in contrast to other top sides. Both of our no.9s (Martial, Hojlund) under this manager have had good conversion rates with very few shots — mostly because we don’t create anything.

Three seasons deep and our substantial way of creating chances is to let Fernandes or Casemiro launch a risky over the top ball into the channels.
 
DWelbz19 said:
No, we pressed well, so even though we still lost and created fewer chances everything is all great this season
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Understood.

We should wait beyond 2 games that mean anything after half your team missed preseason to see how the side develops.

A reasonable and mature take.

Thank you for helping me calm down from my strop
 
Drainy said:
Understood.

We should wait beyond 2 games that mean anything after half your team missed preseason to see how the side develops.

A reasonable and mature take.

Thank you for helping me calm down from my strop
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Well yes, waiting beyond two games is a very reasonable take
 
Drainy said:
Understood.

We should wait beyond 2 games that mean anything after half your team missing preseason to see how the side develops.

A reasonable and mature take.

Thank you for helping me calm down from my strop
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Understood.

We should ignore the previous entire two seasons of football which set clear patterns — lack of chance creation, poor in game management and substitutions, consistently conceding late goals (typically at the back post) — see these patterns emerge for a third season running, and disregard them because half the team didn’t get to play on a pitch in California?

When are we allowed to start critically assessing him? Once we’ve signed de Jong, Tadic, and Tagliafico next season? Oh and only if they’ve all had preseason?
 
UnitedSofa said:
Very interesting thread on Twitter, quite promising despite the doom & gloomers

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Stuff like this is pointless

Jugen Klopps Liverpool had a winning mentality

In extra time, Brighton played for a win and United played for a draw - inevitably we lost

Play however you like. We aren’t winning with that mentality
 
Judas said:
I'm not totally disheartened yet, I want to see a few of the future starters start and a better first 11 before I totally lose it. But as someone who still thought long term it made sense for Ten Hag to go even after the cup win, I think I'm already viewing this season through a different lense anyway.
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Yep, I agree with this. I am pretty sure this season will devolve into something similar to last season because nothing big has changed. I'll reserve full judgement until we're into September and players are fitter but all the signs are there again and we can continue making excuses or we can realise where the problem really lies.
 
Borys said:
The bolded part is very valid point. I'd argue one time our pressing worked really good was with Fred and Weghorst in the team, it caused a lot of turnovers that led to goals or at least dangerous situations. That was EFFECTIVE pressing, not bodies running around for the sake of it (Bruno, Hojlund kind).

Now, I still question this "we want to press high" approach. It's very clear our pressing structure relies on Mount, but once everyone is fit there isn't even a place in starting XI for him (although I would suggest rotating him and Bruno). So are we going to be a high pressing team only for the period when Mason is playing? Not that it's super effective anyway as you pointed out.
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Mount pressing at the moment seems to be game plan A until he goes off and it’s annoying as others such a Bruno and our wingers needs to be doing it also. Yes Bruno does do it a bit but then when all do it we are exposed in the middle a bit, hence why we need a general in midfield, someone who reads the game great, pick up the second balls, closes down etc. fitness is the issue then, once our press is broken, Mount an Co need to get back quickly, it shouldnt be pressing just in the final third, it should be all over. Quick transitions all over, That has been quoted by ETH so many times, I’ve only seen glimpses so far. He’s trying to implement in a way, pep like football, problem is he hasn’t the players, or he does but they don’t listen, I go with the latter.
 
UnitedSofa said:
Very interesting thread on Twitter, quite promising despite the doom & gloomers

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This has become the possession debate from 10 years ago. "We lost the game but we had 80% possession. We're onto something!".

As always, there's only one stat that counts. Goals.

You can press all you want but if you don't win the ball back and you don't score you're just chasing shadows and leaving gaps in behind. People need to stop convincing themselves we have to play this way to win games of football.
 
He needs to see the light and drop wingers and pack the midfield with Casemiro, mainoo, mount, Fernandes, Eriksen and have one up top. Allow mainoo to get forward. I'm utterly sick of seeing us play with wingers that have no end product. Yes Amad scored yesterday but he was infuriatingly offside all the time and his passing was wayward. Rashford was horrific yet again. Garnacho can't dribble. I hate our wings. It's really dreadful
 
Yet again the excuse is players not available or not yet fit, these players are magically going to solve all our issues. It's always system before players. You have the system and then you fit the players in. There is no system, so it doesn't matter who we buy, they are going to fall ill to the same shortcomings of this team.

Zero control in what we do, it's too chaotic and not sustainable. "The pressing is better" ok they press better and then what? What do they do with the ball? What's the plan? We bought a keeper because of his feet but yet we play long balls constantly. The midfield is bypassed so much, we just keep giving the opposition the ball only to press them to get it back and give it back again, rinse and repeat. Things need to change quickly, can't keep making excuses for Eth, INEOS gave him another shot, you'd think he'd switch things up. I personally don't think he'll reach November in charge.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Understood.

We should ignore the previous entire two seasons of football which set clear patterns — lack of chance creation, poor in game management and substitutions, consistently conceding late goals (typically at the back post) — see these patterns emerge for a third season running, and disregard them because half the team didn’t get to play on a pitch in California?

When are we allowed to start critically assessing him? Once we’ve signed de Jong, Tadic, and Tagliafico next season? Oh and only if they’ve all had preseason?
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Football is meant to be enjoyed.

If you enjoy popping a blood vessel every time the ball is given away or when a sidewards pass is made go for it.

I want us to start winning, but can see that the squad is not there to compete as we've not got enough goals so unless there is a major development in one of our attackers that kicks us up a notch we're going to have frustrating games..
 
Judas said:
People mentioning fine margins etc. Yep yesterday nearly went our way. But so many games being fine margins isn't a plan, isn't sustainable, and after three years to still have so little control in matches is woeful coaching and management.
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I’m beginning to think Ten Hags idea of transitional football and control are mutually exclusive concepts. He’s eschewing the idea of control in favour of rope-a-dope.

I think that could be successful if teams weren’t familiar with your approach, as was more the case when he had Ajax and they were a fresh iteration with some exciting young and unknown players. But when you’re on record as saying this is what the aim is, I’m not convinced it’s ever going to be successful.

The game plan relies on an element of surprise which isn’t there. One or two quick defenders to cover the balls over the top, and either avoid passing it round at the back, or be good at it, and the game plan is nullified.
 
Vault Dweller said:
I don’t understand why we still don’t make many chances. The final pass or decision is so fecking poor. We still don’t create anywhere near enough.
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Because we still haven’t been coached any sort of attacking/final third combinations or patterns.

Still heavily relying on Ole type transitional moments.

Look at the way Ange’s team attacks. With the heavy emphasis on quick wing combinations and low driven cut backs.

Emery’s team attack with central combinations and midfield ball carriers from deep and in the channels combining towards the final third.

What about ETHs Utd? Apart from the press which is significantly better after 2 years? It’s make or break time, and he’s been given more time than most.
 
Werd. said:
This.

It was hilarious how some were deluding themselves after a wallpaper over cracks win last week that ETH has changed the system (when he himself admitted that the system is actually from last season) and that he has fixed up alot of issues from last season which as we saw yesterday, is a load of rubbish. Marginal improvements aside, it is the same old issues from last season that are still evident.

He hasn't learnt a single thing about what it takes to have success in the league, and instead of adapting/innovating, he is doubling down on a flawed game plan.
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He has changed the system. We were playing 4141 last season, whereas this season so far we're playing more a 4222 or 4231.

Does that mean we're playing well? Absolutely not. But we're also not as chaotic and ridiculously easy to play through for the opposition. It'll still happen, especially late on in games as our midfield tires (neither Casemiro nor Mainoo can play at high tempo for a full 90), but it's not a fundamental problem with our entire structure like it was last season.
 
Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
Because we still haven’t been coached any sort of attacking/final third combinations or patterns.

Still heavily relying on Ole type transitional moments.

Look at the way Ange’s team attacks. With the heavy emphasis on quick wing combinations and low driven cut backs.

Emery’s team attack with central combinations and midfield ball carriers from deep and in the channels combining towards the final third.

What about ETHs Utd? Apart from the press which is significantly better after 2 years? It’s make or break time, and he’s been given more time than most.
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I absolutely agree with this. And I said as much to mates during the game. If this style is meant to work, then surely the wide players have to be taking their man on nearly every time, to at least pin their opposite player back which provides the room for the central players or full backs to move into space? It just doesn’t happen, constant stopping the ball wide, recycle into the middle, and start again. Three or four times even in the first half yesterday where there was great chances to get the ball along the wings and allow for runners through the middle and nowt happens because of stopping the ball in transition. I genuinely haven’t a clue why they do it.
 
UnitedSofa said:
Very interesting thread on Twitter, quite promising despite the doom & gloomers

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If it were Klopp-esque we would have intercpeted many more passes, would have created better traps, would have been able to move the ball from our centre mid to a free attacker with much more eficiency and conviction. We are nowhere near that.

I was just thinking to myself that ETH essentially wants us to look like a Klopp team, and a couple of seconds later I bumped into your post.

This will be great on paper. I can't see a chance he manages to implement it.
The midfield is crap bar Mainoo, the mentality of the team is not there for the most part [elusive a term as that may be].

We're not a possesion based team nor do we wish to be.
We're not a '10-men-behind-the-ball-and-lightning-counter-attacks' team nor do we really wish to be.

We're a hybrid of these 2 ends of a scale, which is fine seeing as most teams are somewhere in the middle,
but we're all over the place. We do not excel at anything.
 
Structure on and off the ball is improved on last season.

We have been wasteful and EtH has brought in a fresh set of coaches. Part of Ruuds remit is surely to help improve the sides finishing and decision making. It's not going to happen over night.

Unfortunate yesterday that Mount picked up an injury as he was working well in the system 1st half.
 
I think there have been improvements pressing wise, we definitely put more pressure on than before (though it’s a low bar). I can only presume the starting xi was because the subs who came on were not fit enough for 90 mins.
I wouldn’t judge our attacking combinations on yesterday to be honest. The best way to take on Brighton is to nick it off them and break fast, they’re very open to that. We did try this and had success in the second half, just couldn’t finish it off.

I would be worried about the defence. Starting to wonder if the manager knows how to put one together at all. If he doesn’t then who is responsible for it? Fergie recognised improvement was needed back in the day and got Queiroz in to properly fix this. Feel like similar action needs to be taken at United today.
 
MadDogg said:
He has changed the system. We were playing 4141 last season, whereas this season so far we're playing more a 4222 or 4231.

Does that mean we're playing well? Absolutely not. But we're also not as chaotic and ridiculously easy to play through for the opposition. It'll still happen, especially late on in games as our midfield tires (neither Casemiro nor Mainoo can play at high tempo for a full 90), but it's not a fundamental problem with our entire structure like it was last season.
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You are talking about formations. The system/style or whatever you want to call it is essentially the same. Also, ETH last week said he used 4-2-2-2 last season as well.

I dont know what games you have been watching but the football is still chaotic and lacking control and we are still open in midfield to play through for long periods with limited creativity so the same exact issues are still there.
 
3rd season in and we're kinda getting our head around pressing from the front but even that needs more work.
 
EdinburghDevil said:
Structure on and off the ball is improved on last season.

We have been wasteful and EtH has brought in a fresh set of coaches. Part of Ruuds remit is surely to help improve the sides finishing and decision making. It's not going to happen over night.

Unfortunate yesterday that Mount picked up an injury as he was working well in the system 1st half.
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Damn it is this confirmed? Really enjoyed what he brought to the team in the first half.
 
If looking at it in terms of thirds I think we have significantly improved in playing out in our first third. We are fairly comfortable playing around a press and in general maintaining control of the ball between our defence and Onana. Yeah we still go long sometimes but I think thats by design to beat a midfield press and see if we can get a Rashford in behind, but in general we are a lot better and comfortable.

In the final third whilst the finishing needs to improve drastically we are still very good at counter attacking as always and when we do get into the final third and our team pressed up we are being creative as seen against Fulham and even City, by making chances. So if we can keep that up we will get goals once /if the finishing clicks.

Where the biggest issue is, and where I think will be either the making or breaking of Ten Hag, is the middle third. Teams at the moment know they can pack out the midfield and we will struggle to push them back into their middle third. One of the biggest culprits is Casemiro who just struggles in packed midfields. We've seen when Kobbie drops to receive the ball how much of a difference it makes as he can dribble past a press and is leagues better than Casemiro at moving in those tight spaces. For these tactics to work I think we need another midfielder alongside Kobbie who can operate in those tight spaces and keep the ball. Especially when you have a Bruno who treats the ball like a hot potato. Ugarte looks like he can operate in those tight spaces, however, it remains to be seen how he would adapt to the league.

Additionally, it is just going to be harder in general to keep the ball when you have players like Bruno, Rashford and Garncho who lose/give away the ball very cheaply and often in silly positions at silly points in a game. Whilst I don't think Kobbie's stamina is the greatest, to be fair to him by the time he gets upfield to support the attack, one of Garnacho/Rashford/Bruno has already given the ball away causing us to get counter-attacked. Its why I think playing Amad is important, whilst he had a poor overall match, in general he is better at keeping the ball and helping us with possession.
 
Werd. said:
You are talking about formations. The system/style or whatever you want to call it is essentially the same. Also, ETH last week said he used 4-2-2-2 last season as well.

I dont know what games you have been watching but the football is still chaotic and lacking control and we are still open in midfield to play through for long periods with limited creativity so the same exact issues are still there.
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If he wanted us playing 4222 last season, he utterly failed to implement it as we certainly weren't playing that. We basically played one midfielder and expected him to cover half the pitch by himself and opposition teams could just run through us all game, every game. This season so far we're playing more compactly, so it is different than last season.

Like I said, we're not playing well. It's just that saying that this season is the same as last season is understating just how incredibly bad he set us up last season. From the start of preseason through to the last couple of games of the season was literally one of the worst managerial performances I've ever seen, and he is unbelievably lucky that we didn't sack him. It wasn't just the coaching and the style of play; the entire structure and set-up of the team was broken on a fundamental level and simply could not ever work. This season (so far at least) we've still got significant issues but I wouldn't say that the entire set-up is broken. Over the course of the season I expect us to perform a fair bit better, even though the signs are that it still won't be as good as what it should be.
 
eamonhigh said:
Did not get that at all from the posts.

Thought 'eamonhigh' was clever enough to state EtH was not some new Ferguson and clarified any comparison was based on the religious cultists amongst our support, who would demand a manager, in his first season with so much nonsense going on around him, be sacked a week after he won the club's first trophy in six years.

It's the same as those devout supporters demanding Ferguson be removed in the late 80s.

I've noticed the poster bemoans 'tactical naivety', indeed, 'the biggest tactical naivety he'd ever seen' whilst demanding we sack a manger and not recommend a practical replacement. Refused outright to assess the role of injuries, too. Likely thinks that is on the 'medical team'.



Encouraging Ineos to 'gamble' with managers is dangerous folly, and would justify the likes of Ashworth in hiring Southgate. Or Woodward giving Ole the job full- time.

Practical solutions, only, not knee-jerk sackings and hopeful punts.

The serious problem at United is chance conversion.

It's all well and good to dominate midfield, but we need to put whatever we create away.

Happens often. We'll not take chances and eventually get punished as the frustration grows. Leaving three players unmarked at a corner yesterday is not something coached.

Yesterday's subs were curious. Went in a goal down despite playing well. EtH made the right subs but bringing on McToM was quite clear the forward line had busted, and needed The Lancastrian Highlander to emerge and nick one for us. It's worked before but really ought never have to. But profligacy will force our hand.

Hiring RvN is quite clear EtH does not trust the forward line, and nor should he. We are still profligate.

Sacking EtH and taking a hopeful punt on, for example, Glasner, doesn't and won't change the clear mentality issues at play.
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Southgate would be the polar opposite of a gamble. It’d be the most nailed on 8th place finish possible.
 
I don't think we're good at counter attacking at all. We've lost that edge.
That directness.

The indecision amongst our forward players, when a counter arrives, is another frustrating aspect in our play.

Honestly, I swear people only watch United games sometimes. If they're content with this, then there's no hope for the club getting back to any form of success.
 
The fact that at 1-1 we were the team hanging on, and ultimately losing it is a big concern. His tactics in the last 15/20 mins of games has been generally pretty poor.

We are looking better off the ball and look more like a football team in that regard, but on the ball we create so fecking little. A lot of pointless possession and passing back to Onana yesterday.
 
MadDogg said:
If he wanted us playing 4222 last season, he utterly failed to implement it as we certainly weren't playing that. We basically played one midfielder and expected him to cover half the pitch by himself and opposition teams could just run through us all game, every game. This season so far we're playing more compactly, so it is different than last season.

Like I said, we're not playing well. It's just that saying that this season is the same as last season is understating just how incredibly bad he set us up last season. From the start of preseason through to the last couple of games of the season was literally one of the worst managerial performances I've ever seen, and he is unbelievably lucky that we didn't sack him. It wasn't just the coaching and the style of play; the entire structure and set-up of the team was broken on a fundamental level and simply could not ever work. This season (so far at least) we've still got significant issues but I wouldn't say that the entire set-up is broken. Over the course of the season I expect us to perform a fair bit better, even though the signs are that it still won't be as good as what it should be.
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Fair enough mate. I can see where you're coming from.
 
giggs-beckham said:
But I'm worried that they're giving him these players that suit counter attack football, Thus making it hard for the next guy. I hope they have this long term plan as you say but I'm not sure
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De ligt, yoro, maz Zirkzee all just as suited to possession. Only ugarte isn’t.
 
There are some acting like is pressing is something new, when we did it last season as well. We just are not leaving that huge space in midfield anymore. Our biggest problem has always been on the ball, and creating good chances, that is still largely the same and has not change.

We press, get the ball and promptly lose it in an idiotic way, and then have to do the running all over again. It is no mystery we let so many late goals in, the players are tired after all the running we do at the start that we are vulnerable at the end.
 
FireballXL5 said:
I'm not buying it, his laughable ineptitude is there for everyone to see.
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Yep. Anyone trying to find positives out of that yesterday is kidding themselves on.

I could see us getting slapped by Liverpool next week. 3 points out of 9 to start the season. Grim.
 
FrankDrebin said:
I don't think we're good at counter attacking at all. We've lost that edge.
That directness.

The indecision amongst our forward players, when a counter arrives, is another frustrating aspect in our play.

Honestly, I swear people only watch United games sometimes. If they're content with this, then there's no hope for the club getting back to any form of success.
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Agreed, we seem to have lost the one thing we were good at, our swift and great counter attacking.

The number of offsides indicated that players are hesitating, unsure of what to do with the ball.
 
Last year it was the fault of the injured, yesterday we lost against Milner and Gilmour with the full squad. It's his third season and we're still not sure of getting an opportunity in the game.
 
Bwuk said:
Yep. Anyone trying to find positives out of that yesterday is kidding themselves on.

I could see us getting slapped by Liverpool next week. 3 points out of 9 to start the season. Grim.
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If Liverpool don't go full on attack and lure us in, then yes. But I think we'll park the bus and try to hit on the counter, and we'll just be more balanced as a result. We seem to be exploited more when we move up the pitch and they turnover the ball. But I'm not sure Liverpool will be willing to put the brakes on enough to set those types of traps.

Basically, I think it helps teams open us up if they draw us out. But the bigger teams usually try to overwhelm us and, recently, have instead left us with openings instead.
 
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