Erik ten Hag | 2024/25

[USREDEVIL]

The writing is on the wall and has been there since last year. I was ambivalent about keeping him but the options were not great so I was fine with giving him another season and with hopefully some more steel in midfield and hopefully Shaw would come back and Hojlund would kick on. Most of that didnt happen so here we are again.

I don't think ETH is a bad manager, but at the end of the day, the results are what matters most. We had a horrible UCL and were shit in the league, those are the real markers for success, not the Carabao cup. For whatever reason it is not working out. There is nothing to suggest we will kick on from here with ETH. He will continue to have bad/mixed results until December and INEOS will get rid. I'm pretty certain of this.

 

[George The Best]

I don't think there's any chance in hell of us finishing above any of City, Arsenal and Liverpool but under normal circumstances we should be capable of fighting it out for 4th with Chelsea, Tottenham, Villa and maybe a couple others.

We have the squad now to challenge for 4th - but, sadly, we don’t have the manager to achieve that.

 

[saik]

The changes are not marked enough to overcome the plethora of issues that are tied to the manager like an anchor.

If you're talking about being objective, then answer these questions objectively:

1. Has his in-game management improved, at all? If yes, in what way(s)? Early days into the season but no

2. Has he shown improvement in 2nd half of games' management? Same as above. Early days, but this season he has the options on bench to make changes that can help us push on to win the game and he has so far failed to do that.

3. Do you think it is finishing alone that would change our season, up 'til now, around? Yes, with better finishing we would have won games against Brighton and Palace and the game against Fulham would have a more convincing scoreline.

4. Is he doing well with the squad at his disposal? No, he can do better

5. Has he outcoached any team outside of the Barnsley game? I'd say he outcoached Brighton, Palace, Fulham, Southampton, even City(if we are taking CS into account). Against, Liverpool we were in the game until 23rd minute where Casemiro went nuclear and after that we didn't deserve anything, even if we had couple of chances. Same story against Twente, controlled the first half fairly well, but didn't do nearly enough to say we deserved a win.

Now if you are being objective, you'll answer these with no spin or self-serving regardless of what that concludes as.

Not the poster you asked but I'll have a go at it. Assuming we are only talking about this season, as ETH essentially been given another lifeline to show he has something about himself and that this season might be different.

 

[Ichabod Ferguson]

But this simply isn’t true. This is what I don’t get. Assuming we all watch our games, this season we’ve played a lot better in general, it’s been nothing like last season.

I get the results have not matched but it seems some on here are so committed to him being shit, they can’t assess the performances of this season alone which have been a marked improvement. Read the article Sky have just done on us, the difference between this season and last season is night and day.

But no one on here is saying.
‘To be fair we look a lot better but he needs results now’

It’s always:
‘I’ve been ETH out since (insert ancient date to show deep football knowledge), then add some slur about him being a fraud, then say something about how it’s the same as last season.

He may well get sacked but it is demonstrably better from all the underlying stats than last season.

Because the improvement is from literally relegation worthy underlying stats, to a team that finishes 8th place on merit underlying stats. Better, but wasteful, attacking stats and the same, but improved to mid table rather than relegation form, weaknesses at the back.

You can't have it both ways. If you're going to argue these stats are important then you genuinely need us to believe that a Manchester United manager should not be sacked for delivering relegation quality performances over the course of a season according to these metrics. If you don't think they're important and the 'results' ten Hag achieved in spite of the underlying stats last season save him, then you can't complain now when people are pissed off that the results continue to be shit.

But I think you and I both know this. The simple fact is ten Hag started the season on borrowed time and had to hit the ground running. With the best will in the world he hasn't done that and unless he can string together performances and results immediately he's not going to last much longer. The bar is as low as it's ever been for a United manager, and he simply doesn't have the credit in the bank not to reach it.

 

[Crimson King]

You think that's being ruthless?

In the history of Man Utd managers it was seen to be.

 

[Crimson King]

It's not the only factor granted but it's been a major one.

And we've been anything but ruthless. Ruthless would have been sacking Moyes in December, Jose and Ole in July when it was clear they weren't going to make us challengers instead of letting it get worse and worse in the hope they could turn it around.

I think a big part of that was the unwillingness of the Glazers to sack and replace people. It gets expensive.

 

[George The Best]

But this simply isn’t true. This is what I don’t get. Assuming we all watch our games, this season we’ve played a lot better in general, it’s been nothing like last season.

I get the results have not matched but it seems some on here are so committed to him being shit, they can’t assess the performances of this season alone which have been a marked improvement. Read the article Sky have just done on us, the difference between this season and last season is night and day.

But no one on here is saying.
‘To be fair we look a lot better but he needs results now’

It’s always:
‘I’ve been ETH out since (insert ancient date to show deep football knowledge), then add some slur about him being a fraud, then say something about how it’s the same as last season.

He may well get sacked but it is demonstrably better from all the underlying stats than last season.

The stats don’t really matter, but the results do. The table doesn’t lie. We’ve had a relatively easy fixture list so far, with only Liverpool that should have been our only real test. As we stand today Newcastle, Brighton. Forest and Fulham are all above us. That’s a disgrace.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

We have the squad now to challenge for 4th - but, sadly, we don’t have the manager to achieve that.

Agree on the manager, and the squad is quite strong but our attackers are horribly overrated. No chance of top 4 when we have mid table wingers and strikers.

 

[Sarni]

Agree on the manager, and the squad is quite strong but our attackers are horribly overrated. No chance of top 4 when we have mid table wingers and strikers.

I don’t think they are overrated. Nobody rates them.

 

[Ichabod Ferguson]

In the history of Man Utd managers it was seen to be.

Isn't that the issue though? As a club we believe our own bullshit about who we are to the point that two sackings, which I think any other big club in world football would have made, are seen as 'ruthless' and since then have allowed situations with Mourinho and now ten Hag to fester long past the point the relationship is salvageable.

I really don't think ten Hag survives to Christmas last year at any other big club in world football. And when we're an outlier in terms of how much we underperform, perhaps an area where we are also an outlier is contributing.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Agree on the manager, and the squad is quite strong but our attackers are horribly overrated. No chance of top 4 when we have mid table wingers and strikers.

Been saying throughout the summer that was suicide going into the new season with the same set of wingers, when everyone else and every poll showed DM, CM, and even fullback being a higher priority in peoples minds. Garnacho is ace but expecting double figures in goals from him is a big ask, same with expecting Amad to suddenly start producing, Rashy to get back to his best, or Antony to contribute anything remotely useful.

 

[stevoc]

I think a big part of that was the unwillingness of the Glazers to sack and replace people. It gets expensive.

Well yeah giving Jose and Ole new contracts months before they had to be sacked wasn't great and probably extended their stay.

It looks like we may have made the same mistake this summer.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Both games were done at 50th minute mark - fact
We created absolutely nothing before the game was done in both games - fact

Matters very little if they chose to stop playing at 3-0 or 5-0, both performances were utterly embarrassing.

But…one was much worse than the other?

 

[Zumbi]

There’s no need to rewrite history. The recent game was nothing like the 0-5, that was the ultimate piss take. The 0-3 was just us being shit at finishing coupled with some truly awful mistakes to give them 2 goals.

The overreaction on here is amazing to see. We drew a home game in the group stages of the EL…it was a dull game that we should have won but we didn’t. I couldn’t give a hoot about EL games as long as we progress, I care about league games. We need to put a run together now in the league but drawing to Twente in a boring game means jack shit.

Only winning 1/9 in our last nine games in Europe under Ten Hag absolutely means something. Why are you acting like this is a one off failure when it’s actually a damming pattern of failure?

 

[Sarni]

But…one was much worse than the other?

Well let’s call 5-0 absolutely pathetic and 3-0 this year utterly embarrassing for good measure then.

 

[Ichabod Ferguson]

Been saying throughout the summer that was suicide going into the new season with the same set of wingers, when everyone else and every poll showed DM, CM, and even fullback being a higher priority in peoples minds. Garnacho is ace but expecting double figures in goals from him is a big ask, same with expecting Amad to suddenly start producing, Rashy to get back to his best, or Antony to contribute anything remotely useful.

That's another black mark against ten Hag. We had virtually nothing to play for in the league, Garnacho had started about 4000x games in a row, and Rashford and Antony were, yeah.

Enter Amad scoring the winner against Liverpool and... He barely gets a kick for a month. I simply don't believe he's improved so much over the summer that he's gone from not being able to be blooded in the first team to our first choice right winger. A completely wasted opportunity to get Amad up to speed and ready for more responsibility.

 

[tomaldinho1]

The changes are not marked enough to overcome the plethora of issues that are tied to the manager like an anchor.

If you're talking about being objective, then answer these questions objectively:

1. Has his in-game management improved, at all? If yes, in what way(s)?

2. Has he shown improvement in 2nd half of games' management?

3. Do you think it is finishing alone that would change our season, up 'til now, around?

4. Is he doing well with the squad at his disposal?

5. Has he outcoached any team outside of the Barnsley game?

Now if you are being objective, you'll answer these with no spin or self-serving regardless of what that concludes as.

Happy to.
1. This seems like it’s also No2? Just to check.

To answer, what i perceived as the same question, this is probably my biggest concern with ETH. The nous to smell when things need to change and how to do it.

I think this is something I expected more from him but then I also think it is fair to say he is quite limited by the bench, maybe this season that has changed a little. I also think this point gets built up to more than is realistic, it’s not that common managers make huge tactical decisions mid game.

With my disappointment, as above, I will say he navigated a difficult FA cup run (City, Pool) and middling Carabao run the season before. So there is at least some proof of him setting up correctly for games there.

3. Define change? We’ve underperformed that’s for sure - I would say we’d have beaten Palace for sure, that is pretty unarguable, and then we’d have drawn or beaten Brighton. It doesn’t change the league position but if we are top 4 for all the stats as per the article, we’re clearly underperforming in front of goal.

4. Currently we are below where I think we should be but the performances have been better than where we are. I’m a believer in watching the trend and the stats will even out come seasons end. Whether he lasts that long is another question.

5. I don’t really get this question. We were much better than Fulham, Palace, Soton, Barnsley and better than Twente. Pretty even with Brighton and poor versus Pool. So yes, unless you think we were lucky to win (or draw v Palace) any of those?

 

[Blood Mage]

Agree on the manager, and the squad is quite strong but our attackers are horribly overrated. No chance of top 4 when we have mid table wingers and strikers.

Garnacho is quality but the rest are average yeah. I like Amad but I don't see a top class talent there. Rashford is a busted flush, we've already seen his peak.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Because the improvement is from literally relegation worthy underlying stats, to a team that finishes 8th place on merit underlying stats. Better, but wasteful, attacking stats and the same, but improved to mid table rather than relegation form, weaknesses at the back.

You can't have it both ways. If you're going to argue these stats are important then you genuinely need us to believe that a Manchester United manager should not be sacked for delivering relegation quality performances over the course of a season according to these metrics. If you don't think they're important and the 'results' ten Hag achieved in spite of the underlying stats last season save him, then you can't complain now when people are pissed off that the results continue to be shit.

But I think you and I both know this. The simple fact is ten Hag started the season on borrowed time and had to hit the ground running. With the best will in the world he hasn't done that and unless he can string together performances and results immediately he's not going to last much longer. The bar is as low as it's ever been for a United manager, and he simply doesn't have the credit in the bank not to reach it.

Sorry can you rephrase this. As I read it you are saying:

We’ve changed from relegation to 8 to place? I don’t understand, we finished 8th last season, this season we are 11th. I’m lost what I am trying to have both ways.

The underlying stats last season had us somewhere near 14th, now they have us 5th.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Well let’s call 5-0 absolutely pathetic and 3-0 this year utterly embarrassing for good measure then.

 

[tomaldinho1]

The stats don’t really matter, but the results do. The table doesn’t lie. We’ve had a relatively easy fixture list so far, with only Liverpool that should have been our only real test. As we stand today Newcastle, Brighton. Forest and Fulham are all above us. That’s a disgrace.

But in the same way results are all that matter, you don’t know the final results until the seasons end.

If we had won every game but been completely outplayed in every one, no one would think we were going to sustain that. In the same way, stats are helpful to see the broader trend. Obviously you can only ignore the results for so long but it’s so early in the season a win fires you right up the table and the opposite for a loss.

 

[sparx99]

It’s interesting that last year seemed to be a tactical failure while this season seems to be individuals letting the team down. Both attacking and defensive stats are improved but ultimately we are relying on inconsistent players.

Now for what it’s worth if this was ETH’a first season I think you look at performances and the underlying stats and you say we’ve been a bit unlucky. Compare that to last year where even when we won we seemed to be the team getting away with things.

The problem is though that even if the model says we are underachieving our xG or whatever that’s likely to be ongoing. Our forwards are likely to consistently under-perform xG because there isn’t a reliable goalscorer amongst them. Any one of them could have a purple patch but you wouldn’t bet on it.

All we can do is hope that we keep creating lots of chances because we need to for this group to score goals. We also need to hope that we can add some more set piece goals because we need as many from all sources as we can get.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Only winning 1/9 in our last nine games in Europe under Ten Hag absolutely means something. Why are you acting like this is a one off failure when it’s actually a damming pattern of failure?

If you believe we won’t get out the group, let’s bet?

 

[sparx99]

Garnacho is quality but the rest are average yeah. I like Amad but I don't see a top class talent there. Rashford is a busted flush, we've already seen his peak.

The Sky article today shows Amad has been by far our most creative player. For me, the reason he’s starting and Garnacho/Rashford are rotating is because he’s more creative than they are. He’ll get a few goals but I’d like to think he’ll provide more assists than the other two. We’ve needed another provider as our strikers have often had no service while Garnacho, Rashford and Antony shoot from 25yards into the shins of a defenders.

He’s still going to have good and bad games but he offers something different to the other two anyway.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

But this simply isn’t true. This is what I don’t get. Assuming we all watch our games, this season we’ve played a lot better in general, it’s been nothing like last season.

I get the results have not matched but it seems some on here are so committed to him being shit, they can’t assess the performances of this season alone which have been a marked improvement. Read the article Sky have just done on us, the difference between this season and last season is night and day.

But no one on here is saying.
‘To be fair we look a lot better but he needs results now’

It’s always:
‘I’ve been ETH out since (insert ancient date to show deep football knowledge), then add some slur about him being a fraud, then say something about how it’s the same as last season.

He may well get sacked but it is demonstrably better from all the underlying stats than last season.

Yes, it's better than the almost relegation level underlying stats from last season. Now we are simply mid table, with a fully fit squad of handpicked players and another summer of big spending. We've also had a pretty comically easy schedule to start the season, and yet still are going toe to toe with Brighton and Twente.

Just because it's an improvement over "historically bad" doesn't mean it's good enough nor should supporters have the patience/faith that it will change, not in a manager's 3rd year.

 

[kouroux]

Your reply made no sense though. I said I don’t care about the EL group as long as we progress and you said I should care about the EL as it’s our best chance of the CL…so you just posted to agree with me?

I said you should care about not winning the first game, an easy one on paper, since all that matters is getting to the KO stages.
The result was terrible. Not sure what so hard to understand.
The ultimate aim should be to get back to the CL for all of us

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Lose on Sunday and I think he loses the crowd, things get really toxic and he won't be manager again the next time we play at OT.

After last night I know a fair few reds who have backed ETH the entire time who have now given up with him and accepted the inevitable.

 

[crossy1686]

Don't know if anyone else listens to the Athletic podcast but Mitten was a bit scathing of Ten Hag's performance as manager, while saying he's a decent bloke once you get to know him.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Don't know if anyone else listens to the Athletic podcast but Mitten was a bit scathing of Ten Hag's performance as manager, while saying he's a decent bloke once you get to know him.

If he's lost Mitten it really is game over.

 

[Red4ever27]

But this simply isn’t true. This is what I don’t get. Assuming we all watch our games, this season we’ve played a lot better in general, it’s been nothing like last season.

I get the results have not matched but it seems some on here are so committed to him being shit, they can’t assess the performances of this season alone which have been a marked improvement. Read the article Sky have just done on us, the difference between this season and last season is night and day.

But no one on here is saying.
‘To be fair we look a lot better but he needs results now’

It’s always:
‘I’ve been ETH out since (insert ancient date to show deep football knowledge), then add some slur about him being a fraud, then say something about how it’s the same as last season.

He may well get sacked but it is demonstrably better from all the underlying stats than last season.

This is like saying we've gone from completely crap to slightly less crap. Which games in particular have we played a lot better in general? Newly promoted Southampton, and that took a penalty save or things could've ended very differently. First half against Palace maybe, I can't think of any others really where we have shown a clear 'marked improvement'.

The underlying stats are demonstrably better than last season because, well, it would be extremely hard to be worse than last season. It is something we shouldn't be comparing our current performances against if we want clear improvement.

For me it's his lack of adaptation, it's the same formation each game with the same instructions, with the same results. We are predictable and not a good predictable. There seems to be no in game management when things aren't working, no tweaks, no new ideas and it shows.

There's a reason not many are saying 'we look a lot better'. Hopefully I'm eating my words by the end of the season and he comes a big success.

 

[Ace of Spades]

He is shit and his football is shit. The only fact that matters is he finished 8th last season, and we are 11th currently. Both are bad enough to get the sack.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Yes, it's better than the almost relegation level underlying stats from last season. Now we are simply mid table, with a fully fit squad of handpicked players and another summer of big spending. We've also had a pretty comically easy schedule to start the season, and yet still are going toe to toe with Brighton and Twente.

Just because it's an improvement over "historically bad" doesn't mean it's good enough nor should supporters have the patience/faith that it will change, not in a manager's 3rd year.

But that is demonstrably not true from the article?

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Being slightly better than last season is absolutely and obviously not enough to say he deserves to stay on as manager.

Last season was an embarrassment for about 99% of it. It would have been close to impossible to have been as bad as last season.

 

[RedSky]

He won't. Our European form is abysmal, our PL form is abysmal. This is our PL form since the League Cup Win, his only hope was to have a positive European campaign. We have to get results in the next two PL games, failure to do so will be his end.

Games​	Win %​	W​	D​	L​	GF​	GA​	GD​
57​	49.12%​	28​	9​	20​	79​	78​	+1​

Reminder for those attempting to say people are over reacting after a few games.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

But that is demonstrably not true from the article?

What is "demonstrably not true" exactly?

Holy feck you lot that still defend this guy do my head in. Hope you enjoy another mid table finish!

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

If you believe we won’t get out the group, let’s bet?

You realize how pathetic "getting out of the group" is as a goal for Europa league though right?

 

[Licha-Vidic]

• Laurie Whitwell
• 31m ago
• 5
• Manchester United chief executive Omar Berrada has told staff that the aim is to win the Premier League title in 2028, for the 150th anniversary of the club being formed.
• Berrada, who officially joined from rivals Manchester City in June, addressed employees during a meeting at Old Trafford last Wednesday and mapped out the ambitions shared by Sir Jim Ratcliffe and the football hierarchy.
• Berrada informed staff of “Project 150” — so called because it coincides with the major milestone of United’s existence. The club was founded, as Newton Heath, in 1878, before changing its name to Manchester United in 1902.
• That defined goal puts into context the work required on the team, with United currently 11th in the Premier League after two wins, one draw and two defeats. United also drew their opening game in the Europa League to FC Twente, the lowest-ranked side they will face at Old Trafford in the competition.
• Berrada also spoke about the women’s team winning their first title by that year, in equal prominence. He tried to strike an aspirational tone, accepting it would take lots of hard work, rather than come across bullish
• Ten Hag questions Man Utd mentality: 'We were too easy going'
• Berrada’s bold statements were received by an audience of staffers in a mixed mood in the wake of the the job cuts that are seeing the 1,000-strong workforce reduced by a quarter. People who have been at the club for several years have departed, prompting feelings of upset and despondency, while others are energised at the prospect of the club becoming more driven by sporting objectives.
• Ratcliffe’s arrival triggered the redundancies as a means of saving money the club says, but his main motivation is on United winning major silverware again. In his first round of media interviews in February after securing his 27.7 per cent investment he brought up the 150-year anniversary.
• “It’s not a 10-year plan. The fans would run out of patience if it was a 10-year plan. But it’s certainly a three-year plan to get there,” he said.
• “To think that we’re going to be playing football as good as Manchester City played against Real Madrid last season by next year is not sensible. And if we give people false expectations, then they will get disappointed. So the key thing is our trajectory, so that people can see that we’re making progress.
• United’s new hierarchy have mapped out their ambitions (Chris Brunskill/Fantasista/Getty Images)
• “I think it’s the club’s 150-year anniversary in 2028… if our trajectory is leading to a very good place in that sort of timeframe then we’d be very happy with that. Because it’s not easy to turn Manchester United into the world’s best football team.
• “The ultimate target for Manchester United — and it’s always going to be thus, really — is that we should be challenging for the Premier League and challenging for the Champions League. It’s one of the biggest clubs in the world.”
• Ahead of the Liverpool game earlier this month, which United lost 3-0, Berrada and Dan Ashworth, the club’s newly-appointed sporting director, addressed the media.
• “Erik has our full backing and we have worked very closely together in this transfer window,” Berrada said. “We’re going to continue working very closely with him to help him get the best results out of the team. Do we still believe in Erik? Absolutely. We think Erik is the right coach for us and we’re fully backing him.”
• Speaking before United’s return to Premier League action against Tottenham Hotspur on Sunday, Ten Hag said: “We are working and progressing. We have to sign players but we made a choice to sign very young players.
• “Last year (Rasmus) Hojlund, this year (Joshua) Zirkzee, Leny Yoro. We believe in them, this moment and also for the future, and we have to build them. We have to work with the squad and that takes time.
• “Also I am impatient and I want to go straight forward but also we had success in the last two seasons and we have to work hard to bring more success.”

 

[erikcred]

You realize how pathetic "getting out of the group" is as a goal for Europa league though right?

After last season in the CL, makes sense to start by setting the bar there.

 

[Buster15]

It actually shows that we've improved and that our attacking stats are top 5. Buster with the own goal..

Thank you.

 

[erikcred]

But this simply isn’t true. This is what I don’t get. Assuming we all watch our games, this season we’ve played a lot better in general, it’s been nothing like last season.

I get the results have not matched but it seems some on here are so committed to him being shit, they can’t assess the performances of this season alone which have been a marked improvement. Read the article Sky have just done on us, the difference between this season and last season is night and day.

Nope. At best it's night and later that night.