However. That is the first time in almost two years I’ve seen him set us up in a way to control games. So I consider that as the outlier not the rule of thumb.
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25
- Thread starter Cheimoon
- Start date
feels like 60-70% of people here have trouble grasping the concept of a rebuild. Wouldn't we all want to be instantly perfect..
We are top of the league,
I said we are top of the league,
We are top of the league,
I said we are top of the league by big chances created,
We are top of the league
With fans like Goldbridge, who needs enemies anyway
Progress isn't measured by how many points you got in 5 games. You are also being controversial if you say that stats and performances have been poor recently. It really wasn't a poor performance against Palace, we were a bit unlucky with converting chances into goals but it was one of the best away performances in months and (until last 30mins) we played completely different style to last season.
It is an anomaly that we didn't score a single goal against CP. Another anomaly is that we scored 10 in the 2 previous games, that's why it all evens out in the end if you throw this all into a big pool of chances scored/missed, but obviously what happens in a game matters.
There's definitely a progress, we might argue if this is because we're seeing 700m squad playing together finally, or some new coaches instant impact, but a progress it is.
I’m not entrenched whatsoever. I’m happy to be objective about what I see. I’m not convinced EtH is going to be ‘the one’ but I’m also able to see the positives too. My biggest issue is in game management along with the seemingly lack of ability to achieve consistency.
Feels like 30-40% of people don't see that this so called "rebuild" goes totally the wrong way. With ten Hag we lost already 2 years and counting, thanks to his crap signings, useless, mediocre players "because they are dutch, or played in Ajax, or in Holland" so our dutch genius knew them well. A bunch of useless, mediocre (or even worse) peg legs arrived with the recommendation of ten Hag. Just a few. Antony, probably the biggest flop of the history of PL. Malacia. Anybody saw him at all? While he was healthy he was still bad. Weghorst, the guy who was probably the worst attacker ever wore a United shirt, luckily he was on loan. Zirkzee. He simply isn't prolific enough, definitely not what we needed. Amrabat. Simply mediocre, at least he was also on loan. And so on. Maybe Martinez was the only one who turned out to be good but he's really injury prone unfortunately. And Onana, but that's debatable as he's making ridicilous mistakes sometimes. So, his bad signings and clueless tactics (resulted in poor results) can be called anything but rebuild, sorry. We have to get rid of him ASAP.
There's enough proof to show that we've been absolutely shite for over a decade now. It's very draining indeed.
I understand what he’s saying. I just don’t think it’s necessarily true, at least to a degree that will prove good enough.
Yes, improvements in performance are very welcome. We all hope they bring a huge improvement in results.
But this assumption that our current improvement in performances will automatically bring better results just because we’re playing better football and creating more chances won’t necessarily hold true over the long term when some of our most glaring issues remain. It’s a step in the right direction, but there’s still a lot of improvement that’s needed elsewhere to ensure we get results consistently enough for meaningful progress in the league.
Take the Palace game. It was one of the best first half performances we’ve seen in ages and we created loads of chances, but do you really think we win that game 9/10 times? I don’t.
Despite the dominant first half we still let Palace back in to the match in the second half and still gave them some big chances to snatch a win. I still had that all too common feeling of dread that they were more likely to snatch it than we were. Despite our improvement, it still only ended up 6-4 shots on target in our favour. And this is a Palace side that have not had a great start to the season.
An inability to score enough goals, a susceptibility to letting games get away from us and conceding soft chances/goals, and in game changes that make us worse, not better, are all recurring themes across last season and the games so far this season. So forgive us for wanting to see improvements in those areas too before we’re fully convinced the requisite improvement in results will definitely come.
Yeah without a doubt if they're consistently harming the overall team performance. That's why it was also the right decision to sell Ronaldo (top goalscorer) and De Gea (golden glove winner)
There's only so much makeup you can put on a pig before it starts looking silly.
Playing beautiful without goals has already been proved bad by arsenal. We're out of PL race in the 5th round. Rashi being benched after his best time in years, and for what reason? He Rested the whole summer! He could play 20 games before being rested. ETH is 2/10 in man management.
How about a hair transplant and Turkey teeth?
That's true, results aren't great, and they do matter, but performances have definitely improved. Last season one of the biggest complaints was that we looked worse than our results suggested, which was something you personally raised in last season's thread on the manager.
I actually think your final paragraph after the first sentence is perfectly reasonable, and I'm not even sure if I disagree with you about whether Ten Hag is the man to take us forward, you seem to be going to great lengths not to acknowledge the obvious improvement in our play - we clearly look more cohesive this season than last, are creating more chances more reliably, are retaining the ball better, and are conceding fewer and lower quality chances.
I agree with this, it certainly was the best first half performance in a long time, whether that was just from Palace sitting back intentionally or us just outplaying them. And you're right we've seen plenty of these games under ETH where we start strong, maybe even get a goal - actually sometimes more so if we get a goal - and then drop back and let the other team into the game.
The Palace game we at least still kept creating chances throughout the game, even though Palace the bigger chances overall. The Southampton game also we were able to continue creating chances after scoring and see out the game, instead of all too often dropping back. Ofcourse Palace and Southampton being the two teams at the bottom of the table plays a lot into this. But hopefully it is a sign to come, we'll see when facing stronger teams.
Being short of being 100% convinced he’s not up to the job is hardly a ringing endorsement. Plus they may have just not been able to come to an agreement with the potential replacements they wanted (for example, it’s been reported Tuchel rejected them).
I hope the results come soon. But they need to come in enough volume for there to be meaningful progress in the league.
Far better on Saturday. Just a shame between finishing and goalkeeping we weren't 3 up by HT. Still good start of second half but feel like his subs stopped our momentum and attack. But defence looks a lot more solid. So yeah, slight improvement but worried about goalscoring still.
Yeah last weekend really has me interested in how we look going forward (for the first time in I don’t know how long). Because there were clear logical ideas and an approach that made sense that we hadn’t seen in 2+ years yet, both from our willingness to dictate the tempo of the game as well as how we looked to build both in and out of possession.
It was a far cry from the suicidal, ultra direct shit I’ve watched of the past year. I said it directly after the game but if that’s how we continue to look moving forward I’ll be more inclined to change my stance on ETH as a coach. Because how we played Saturday is something that’s actually sustainable.
I’ve repeatedly acknowledged the improvements in performance?
I’ve just also been explicit in saying that several years in, improvements in performance alone are not sufficient for me. Improvements in performance should have come long ago. We absolutely have to start seeing an improvement in results too, and quite a few of the recurring issues that frequently cost us points under Ten Hag last year are still apparent this season. As a manager he has to show a better ability to pick up points whether we’re playing well or badly.
This thread was missing the good old ‘you need years before you can judge him’ and ‘any manager will be amazing if they are given lots of time’ reiterated in some capacity. Thank you.
The issue I have with this, is if this is ETH's vision, why is it so different from the way we were playing last year, i.e. playing with one deep isolated midfielder, and a huge gap between lines, pressing high and defending deep? this season we now have defenders available who are able to push up and play a high line defence, make line breaking passes and allow the team to execute a high press.... and instead we are finally playing with 2 deeper mids, retaining possession and covering the defence, I mean thank god that penny has finally dropped, but why did it take an entire season for ETH to rectify this basic error.
The other issue I have is that Zirkzee has effectively replaced Weghorst, (ok he is a massive upgrade), but he is playing deep as a 10 at best and dropping deeper, seems to me that for an ETH version of our team to function we have to play effectively with an extra midfielder and no striker, i.e. a 4-2-4, as soon as we switch to playing an actual striker then the system fails, our midfield is over run and we struggle to retain possession beyond the half way line, maybe that is a personnel problem? maybe Bruno is too wasteful with the ball, but cannot be dropped (I dunno, I like Bruno so not advocating this really), I think Hoijlund will continue to struggle with ETH as a manager, he does not seem to have a system which supports a proper number 9.
I love playing on the break, I love Ole-Ball, I mean this was the football I grew up on, Giggs, Sharpe, Kanchelskis, Cole etc... and I absolutely despise ticci-tacca yeah it is effective but so dull what is the actual point! but I watch an ETH side and it looks like slowed down ticca-tacca which resorts to long ball because the midfield is unable to retain possession beyond the half way line, irrespective of coaching and philosophies football is always going to come down to moments of individual brilliance, seems to me that we are trying to control matches by limiting individuality, something that players like Rashford, Bruno and Hoijlund thrive on.
He lost me after 7-0 drubbing so my vote won't be changing, also in game management is a huge fault of his as well but conflicted because want the team to succeed even though it keeps him
You can still remain relatively consistent while rebuilding, and win games against the odds. He showed some of that in his first season here, in fairness. Well up to March 2023 anyway, then everything went downhill.
It was an encouraging game on the whole, but one problem I've always had with him is how he is apparently incapable of adapting in-game.
Plan A worked great, but Palace changed things at half time and we barely created another chance in the entire second half. I can't even remember the last time Ten Hag changed our personnel or tactics for the better during a game, unless it was "chuck McT on and hope he can nick a goal".
Plan A worked great, but Palace changed things at half time and we barely created another chance in the entire second half. I can't even remember the last time Ten Hag changed our personnel or tactics for the better during a game, unless it was "chuck McT on and hope he can nick a goal".
Yeah very true, good point
Yeah totally fair
I feel this is an interesting talking point among fans and probably should be brought up more- the split between having a squad that is very suited to quick transitions (Bruno, Rashford, Hojlund, even Casemiro with the way he's instructed to play) and more technical players that can keep the ball well, move it quickly, good first touch, awareness etc (almost the entire defence, Shaw, Mainoo, Eriksen, Zirkzee, Amad). There were rumors that EtH didn't want the Ugarte signing and wanted a creative midfielder and if it's true then this might highlight the issue.
Obviously it's not mutually exclusive, you can have players of both types, but i'd like to see us move away from always looking to be so direct. That first half against Palace was actually really fun to watch for me, it just had no goals but we passed the ball better than I've seen us do for a long time and we pressed really well. After last season it's sometimes easy to forget that this team has players that are actually good on the ball- it's a far cry from the days of McFred in midfield, AwB and De Gea at the back. We can really play!
You said you like Ole ball which is fine but for me personally after Jose, Ole, and EtH's first few years i'm so tired of watching United have no control in games. When Sir Alex was here we definitely had some fantastic counter attack options but we were never purely just a counter attacking team- we had midfielders like Keane, Scholes, and Carrick that could dictate tempo and work the opposition around. If we can add goals to that Crystal Palace performance then i'd definitely be happy watching a more possession focused United team.
I seem to remember this being a huge issue with Ajax fans as well even when they were winning constantly with him.
If we lose to Spurs this weekend, surely the board will have to consider his future.
"Ole ball" sounds like a gritty, South Korean revenge thriller.
The assumption is that we won't continue under performing what our underlying metrics suggest as they tend to balance out eventually. I've already acknowledged that we need to show this more consistently and soon for this to be any sort of meaningful progress.
And yes, I genuinely believe we would win that Palace game 9 times out of 10 if we performed at that level. In the first half, our play deserved a score of 2-0, if not 3-0. Had we taken that lead, given our control of possession, Palace would likely have had no incentive to attack in the second half, and we wouldn’t have felt the need to keep pressing for a goal allowing Palace to have the chances they had. It would have died down, much like the Southampton game did.
The Ajax supporters on here told us before he arrived to be wary as his in game management, subs etc. are often puzzling to poor and in truth, they have been totally right, and I don’t know if it’s something that will change at this point?
I agree, it isn’t. But, they also felt he deserved another chance in a better environment, which is why he’s still here. If improving the team were as simple as replacing ETH, they could have easily found someone other than Tuchel, given their best-in-class reputation. It’s not a matter of Tuchel or bust as that would be a bad way of running things.
I also agree with the second part of your post; I've expressed the same sentiment. The only thing we disagree on is that you don't believe it'll happen and I believe it will.
Have a consistent first XI helped somewhat with this in the first season. Especially defensively. Also having Rashford (or a forward) hitting what is expected.
I agree, it isn’t. But, they also felt he deserved another chance in a better environment, which is why he’s still here. If improving the team were as simple as replacing ETH, they could have easily found someone other than Tuchel, given their best-in-class reputation. It’s not a matter of Tuchel or bust as that would be a bad way of running things.
I also agree with the second part of your post; I've expressed the same sentiment. The only thing we disagree on is that you don't believe it'll happen and I believe it will.
Haha, fair.
And to be clear, I think our results will improve. But not enough to make the top four and we may even struggle for 5th/6th. I think the PL will ultimately prove too harsh an environment for Ten Hag’s flaws and limitations.
It wasn’t though, it was a brilliant performance. Probably the most we have looked like a top team in years. We completely controlled the game in a way we have never really managed. That’s the kind of control I’ve been looking for us to have for soo many years. It’s clear from performances this season we have been improving game on game. The issue is our attack is still someway off the top sides so even playing well we will be inconsistent at taking chances. What I don’t get is downplaying the performance though, not many will play better than that.
These ifs and buts are pointless. You only deserve a lead if you can actually put the ball in the back of the net, and we didn’t. Chances don’t count for anything in football unless you convert them. I could counter with “if Southampton scored their penalty…” but they didn't, so it’s a pointless hypothetical. Football rewards only those that take their chances.
Yeah, true.