Agree on the manager, and the squad is quite strong but our attackers are horribly overrated. No chance of top 4 when we have mid table wingers and strikers.
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Votes can now be changed
- Thread starter Cheimoon
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
I don’t think they are overrated. Nobody rates them.
Isn't that the issue though? As a club we believe our own bullshit about who we are to the point that two sackings, which I think any other big club in world football would have made, are seen as 'ruthless' and since then have allowed situations with Mourinho and now ten Hag to fester long past the point the relationship is salvageable.
I really don't think ten Hag survives to Christmas last year at any other big club in world football. And when we're an outlier in terms of how much we underperform, perhaps an area where we are also an outlier is contributing.
Been saying throughout the summer that was suicide going into the new season with the same set of wingers, when everyone else and every poll showed DM, CM, and even fullback being a higher priority in peoples minds. Garnacho is ace but expecting double figures in goals from him is a big ask, same with expecting Amad to suddenly start producing, Rashy to get back to his best, or Antony to contribute anything remotely useful.
Well yeah giving Jose and Ole new contracts months before they had to be sacked wasn't great and probably extended their stay.
It looks like we may have made the same mistake this summer.
But…one was much worse than the other?
Only winning 1/9 in our last nine games in Europe under Ten Hag absolutely means something. Why are you acting like this is a one off failure when it’s actually a damming pattern of failure?
Well let’s call 5-0 absolutely pathetic and 3-0 this year utterly embarrassing for good measure then.
That's another black mark against ten Hag. We had virtually nothing to play for in the league, Garnacho had started about 4000x games in a row, and Rashford and Antony were, yeah.
Enter Amad scoring the winner against Liverpool and... He barely gets a kick for a month. I simply don't believe he's improved so much over the summer that he's gone from not being able to be blooded in the first team to our first choice right winger. A completely wasted opportunity to get Amad up to speed and ready for more responsibility.
Happy to.
1. This seems like it’s also No2? Just to check.
To answer, what i perceived as the same question, this is probably my biggest concern with ETH. The nous to smell when things need to change and how to do it.
I think this is something I expected more from him but then I also think it is fair to say he is quite limited by the bench, maybe this season that has changed a little. I also think this point gets built up to more than is realistic, it’s not that common managers make huge tactical decisions mid game.
With my disappointment, as above, I will say he navigated a difficult FA cup run (City, Pool) and middling Carabao run the season before. So there is at least some proof of him setting up correctly for games there.
3. Define change? We’ve underperformed that’s for sure - I would say we’d have beaten Palace for sure, that is pretty unarguable, and then we’d have drawn or beaten Brighton. It doesn’t change the league position but if we are top 4 for all the stats as per the article, we’re clearly underperforming in front of goal.
4. Currently we are below where I think we should be but the performances have been better than where we are. I’m a believer in watching the trend and the stats will even out come seasons end. Whether he lasts that long is another question.
5. I don’t really get this question. We were much better than Fulham, Palace, Soton, Barnsley and better than Twente. Pretty even with Brighton and poor versus Pool. So yes, unless you think we were lucky to win (or draw v Palace) any of those?
Garnacho is quality but the rest are average yeah. I like Amad but I don't see a top class talent there. Rashford is a busted flush, we've already seen his peak.
Sorry can you rephrase this. As I read it you are saying:
We’ve changed from relegation to 8 to place? I don’t understand, we finished 8th last season, this season we are 11th. I’m lost what I am trying to have both ways.
The underlying stats last season had us somewhere near 14th, now they have us 5th.
But in the same way results are all that matter, you don’t know the final results until the seasons end.
If we had won every game but been completely outplayed in every one, no one would think we were going to sustain that. In the same way, stats are helpful to see the broader trend. Obviously you can only ignore the results for so long but it’s so early in the season a win fires you right up the table and the opposite for a loss.
It’s interesting that last year seemed to be a tactical failure while this season seems to be individuals letting the team down. Both attacking and defensive stats are improved but ultimately we are relying on inconsistent players.
Now for what it’s worth if this was ETH’a first season I think you look at performances and the underlying stats and you say we’ve been a bit unlucky. Compare that to last year where even when we won we seemed to be the team getting away with things.
The problem is though that even if the model says we are underachieving our xG or whatever that’s likely to be ongoing. Our forwards are likely to consistently under-perform xG because there isn’t a reliable goalscorer amongst them. Any one of them could have a purple patch but you wouldn’t bet on it.
All we can do is hope that we keep creating lots of chances because we need to for this group to score goals. We also need to hope that we can add some more set piece goals because we need as many from all sources as we can get.
Now for what it’s worth if this was ETH’a first season I think you look at performances and the underlying stats and you say we’ve been a bit unlucky. Compare that to last year where even when we won we seemed to be the team getting away with things.
The problem is though that even if the model says we are underachieving our xG or whatever that’s likely to be ongoing. Our forwards are likely to consistently under-perform xG because there isn’t a reliable goalscorer amongst them. Any one of them could have a purple patch but you wouldn’t bet on it.
All we can do is hope that we keep creating lots of chances because we need to for this group to score goals. We also need to hope that we can add some more set piece goals because we need as many from all sources as we can get.
If you believe we won’t get out the group, let’s bet?
The Sky article today shows Amad has been by far our most creative player. For me, the reason he’s starting and Garnacho/Rashford are rotating is because he’s more creative than they are. He’ll get a few goals but I’d like to think he’ll provide more assists than the other two. We’ve needed another provider as our strikers have often had no service while Garnacho, Rashford and Antony shoot from 25yards into the shins of a defenders.
He’s still going to have good and bad games but he offers something different to the other two anyway.
Yes, it's better than the almost relegation level underlying stats from last season. Now we are simply mid table, with a fully fit squad of handpicked players and another summer of big spending. We've also had a pretty comically easy schedule to start the season, and yet still are going toe to toe with Brighton and Twente.
Just because it's an improvement over "historically bad" doesn't mean it's good enough nor should supporters have the patience/faith that it will change, not in a manager's 3rd year.
I said you should care about not winning the first game, an easy one on paper, since all that matters is getting to the KO stages.
The result was terrible. Not sure what so hard to understand.
The ultimate aim should be to get back to the CL for all of us
Lose on Sunday and I think he loses the crowd, things get really toxic and he won't be manager again the next time we play at OT.
After last night I know a fair few reds who have backed ETH the entire time who have now given up with him and accepted the inevitable.
After last night I know a fair few reds who have backed ETH the entire time who have now given up with him and accepted the inevitable.
Don't know if anyone else listens to the Athletic podcast but Mitten was a bit scathing of Ten Hag's performance as manager, while saying he's a decent bloke once you get to know him.
If he's lost Mitten it really is game over.
This is like saying we've gone from completely crap to slightly less crap. Which games in particular have we played a lot better in general? Newly promoted Southampton, and that took a penalty save or things could've ended very differently. First half against Palace maybe, I can't think of any others really where we have shown a clear 'marked improvement'.
The underlying stats are demonstrably better than last season because, well, it would be extremely hard to be worse than last season. It is something we shouldn't be comparing our current performances against if we want clear improvement.
For me it's his lack of adaptation, it's the same formation each game with the same instructions, with the same results. We are predictable and not a good predictable. There seems to be no in game management when things aren't working, no tweaks, no new ideas and it shows.
There's a reason not many are saying 'we look a lot better'. Hopefully I'm eating my words by the end of the season and he comes a big success.
He is shit and his football is shit. The only fact that matters is he finished 8th last season, and we are 11th currently. Both are bad enough to get the sack.
But that is demonstrably not true from the article?
Being slightly better than last season is absolutely and obviously not enough to say he deserves to stay on as manager.
Last season was an embarrassment for about 99% of it. It would have been close to impossible to have been as bad as last season.
Last season was an embarrassment for about 99% of it. It would have been close to impossible to have been as bad as last season.
Reminder for those attempting to say people are over reacting after a few games.
What is "demonstrably not true" exactly?
Holy feck you lot that still defend this guy do my head in. Hope you enjoy another mid table finish!
You realize how pathetic "getting out of the group" is as a goal for Europa league though right?
- Laurie Whitwell
- 31m ago
- 5
- Manchester United chief executive Omar Berrada has told staff that the aim is to win the Premier League title in 2028, for the 150th anniversary of the club being formed.
- Berrada, who officially joined from rivals Manchester City in June, addressed employees during a meeting at Old Trafford last Wednesday and mapped out the ambitions shared by Sir Jim Ratcliffe and the football hierarchy.
- Berrada informed staff of “Project 150” — so called because it coincides with the major milestone of United’s existence. The club was founded, as Newton Heath, in 1878, before changing its name to Manchester United in 1902.
- That defined goal puts into context the work required on the team, with United currently 11th in the Premier League after two wins, one draw and two defeats. United also drew their opening game in the Europa League to FC Twente, the lowest-ranked side they will face at Old Trafford in the competition.
- Berrada also spoke about the women’s team winning their first title by that year, in equal prominence. He tried to strike an aspirational tone, accepting it would take lots of hard work, rather than come across bullish
- Ten Hag questions Man Utd mentality: 'We were too easy going'
- Berrada’s bold statements were received by an audience of staffers in a mixed mood in the wake of the the job cuts that are seeing the 1,000-strong workforce reduced by a quarter. People who have been at the club for several years have departed, prompting feelings of upset and despondency, while others are energised at the prospect of the club becoming more driven by sporting objectives.
- Ratcliffe’s arrival triggered the redundancies as a means of saving money the club says, but his main motivation is on United winning major silverware again. In his first round of media interviews in February after securing his 27.7 per cent investment he brought up the 150-year anniversary.
- “It’s not a 10-year plan. The fans would run out of patience if it was a 10-year plan. But it’s certainly a three-year plan to get there,” he said.
- “To think that we’re going to be playing football as good as Manchester City played against Real Madrid last season by next year is not sensible. And if we give people false expectations, then they will get disappointed. So the key thing is our trajectory, so that people can see that we’re making progress.
- United’s new hierarchy have mapped out their ambitions (Chris Brunskill/Fantasista/Getty Images)
- “I think it’s the club’s 150-year anniversary in 2028… if our trajectory is leading to a very good place in that sort of timeframe then we’d be very happy with that. Because it’s not easy to turn Manchester United into the world’s best football team.
- “The ultimate target for Manchester United — and it’s always going to be thus, really — is that we should be challenging for the Premier League and challenging for the Champions League. It’s one of the biggest clubs in the world.”
- Ahead of the Liverpool game earlier this month, which United lost 3-0, Berrada and Dan Ashworth, the club’s newly-appointed sporting director, addressed the media.
- “Erik has our full backing and we have worked very closely together in this transfer window,” Berrada said. “We’re going to continue working very closely with him to help him get the best results out of the team. Do we still believe in Erik? Absolutely. We think Erik is the right coach for us and we’re fully backing him.”
- Speaking before United’s return to Premier League action against Tottenham Hotspur on Sunday, Ten Hag said: “We are working and progressing. We have to sign players but we made a choice to sign very young players.
- “Last year (Rasmus) Hojlund, this year (Joshua) Zirkzee, Leny Yoro. We believe in them, this moment and also for the future, and we have to build them. We have to work with the squad and that takes time.
- “Also I am impatient and I want to go straight forward but also we had success in the last two seasons and we have to work hard to bring more success.”
After last season in the CL, makes sense to start by setting the bar there.
Thank you.
Nope. At best it's night and later that night.
Exactly. Its insane to treat a manager in his 3rd season like its his first season. He should be judged in concert of what happened last season. He doesn't get a blank slate every season other wise we will be stuck where we are forever. He had to start well because last season was a failure. The FA cup was a consolation prize. But missing out on top 4 and no discernable playing style meant last season was a failure
This is true. Twente came to OT, had their day out, their fans stayed after dancing and jumping up and down, their players celebrating and saying they could have won post-match - and hardly anyone finds it surprising or like there’s hardly any outrage or reaction, as you said.
Even Gullit was saying this doesn’t surprise anyone as it’s what we’ve come to expect under Ten Hag
I fecking hate his press conferences. Three years in and the cheeky knobhead still has the audacity to call his team “a work in process”.
I think what people don't truly understand is, to justify his stay, Ten Hag would have needed to have a drastically improved start to the season, both in results and performance.
Our fans seem to think that we have an obligation to will managers to success. We don't. It's business, where the results and performance directly affect our operations and finances. It's not sentimental and it should not be, unless the figure in question has shown quality to deserve that consideration. Arsenal under Wenger owed him that. In addition, he was producing good football, but did not have the funds required to deserve that level of expectation.
Ten Hag has actually proven that he is not qualified for the job. His performance last season, FA Cup or no FA Cup, was the worst by any Man United manager. The dispiriting impact it had on the club, fans and players cannot truly be explained. No other big club with our status would have tolerated even half of what went on last season. He doesn't deserve the time and I personally don't think that was the point. I think people like to think that INEOS did not find the right manager; I don't actually think this is true. I think INEOS didn't find the right manager that would justify replacing Ten Hag at the time of winning the FA Cup and prior to setting up the senior management structure. I believe they would have changed course if they believed there was a truly exceptional manager like a Klopp or Pep, who could handle the blowback of the sacking and not having a structure temporarily. Essentially, I think time rather than quality was the main factor in their decision. I believe they've given Ten Hag the opportunity to impress, whilst using the lack of fanfare and pressure to place structures and showcase their abilities in the market without distraction. They're able to focus on planning the new stadium, bringing in new signings and bringing in new personnel without the instability of a new manager.
This means, Ten Hag was nobody's choice, but rather a short term stopgap of stability. In addition, poor results have decimated any hostility that would have arisen from sacking Ten Hag at the end of the summer. United fans and the media tend to have short memories in regard to these type of things, and would quickly have turned on INEOS for taking that decision without giving Ten Hag a chance to turn it around. Noone can say that they haven't given him time now. Noone can say it was injuries or lack of support or lack of signings. This is not to say that they callously planned this out, but made the decision hoping that Ten Hag really would turn things around, with the safeguard that if he didn't, a lot of positive things would have taken place and any potential blowback would have dissipated.
Well he is not wrong about that. The team clearly is not a finished product and a work in process. He is atleast partly to blame for that though, the work he is doing on the team isnt really developing as fast as we would hope.
As per Berrada’s comments, he still has just under 4 years to deliver the title.
The team might not be a finished product, but I bet the next manager is going to look like a right genius when he gets them to perform a lot better that what Ten Hag is doing.