Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked

[Andy_Cole]

I've always blamed the player culture at United in recent years for our failures and not the manager.

Even with ETH, I have put the blame on the players for failing another manager but that cannot surely be the case anymore.

A lot of the players that started vrs Spurs where players he has brought in so we cannot solely blame the players this time.

Our shape compared to Spurs where poles apart and that comes down to coaching i'm afraid.

I looked at both line ups before the game and I thought we had by far the superior line up and would win this game but it showed a well drilled side can brush aside a side that has no shape whatsoever.

The players should be ashamed of themselves again but the manager has had enough time by now to address the previous failings.

Yup it's hard to blame the players every single time.

I'd like to compare the starting 11 for Moyes, LVG, Jose, Ole's and Hag's final games.

Moyes:

1D De Gea
12C Smalling
4P Jones
6J Evans
28A Büttner
16M Carrick
24D Fletcher
17Nani
8J Mata
26S Kagawa
10W Rooney (c)

LVG:
1D De Gea
25A Valencia
12C Smalling
17D Blind
5M Rojo
16M Carrick
8J Mata
27M Fellaini
10W Rooney (c)
9A Martial
39M Rashford

Jose
1D De Gea
36M Darmian
3E Bailly
2V Lindelöf
18A Young (c)
20D Dalot
21A Herrera
31N Matic
10M Rashford
14J Lingard
9R Lukaku

Ole
1D De Gea
29A Wan-Bissaka
2V Lindelöf
5H Maguire (c)
23L Shaw
39S McTominay
31N Matic
25J Sancho
18B Fernandes
10M Rashford
7C Ronaldo

Hag
24A Onana
3N Mazraoui
4M de Ligt
6L Martínez
20D Dalot
37K Mainoo
25M Ugarte
17A Garnacho
8B Fernandes (c)
10M Rashford
11J Zirkzee

Moyes > LVG 6 different starters
LVG > Jose 9 different starters
Jose > Ole 7 different starters
Ole > Hag 10 different starters

I know this doesn't paint the whole picture as there's players in there who were part of the previous regime, just didn't start in that final match. However it does show that on a whole the players are generally different by the time they down tools by the end of the regime.

 

[stevoc]

Tactical setup definitely yes, squad building no.

Fair enough maybe the latter aspect is where we're struggling.

It's why we need to keep ten Hag for the foreseeable. This crazy mindset about managers won't change until we prove that having many years and a squad full of their own players does not turn someone into Sir Alex.

Sack him now and we'll be hearing the same about the next guy regardless of how poor he is. It will always be "the players got him sacked" even though the majority of the managers post Fergie have had a terrible record with their transfers, but getting them more of their men is supposed to change things for the better.

All the players bought by José that he needed to make his own squad were immediately a problem for Ole, so he needed his own players. Then, all the players bought for him immediately became a problem for ten Hag, so he needed his own players. Now, he's being let down by all the players who were here before him as our best performing players are all of his signings of course, so we need to keep rewarding him with his own players because if we sack him now, all of his signings that have been great business up until this Wednesday will be considered a problem by Thursday because they are not the next guys players. That's how this apparently works. It's not like we've only had one period of decent form under him that lasted a few months out of over two years solely down to a player who's been in the first team since 2016 being in world class form.

I'm still not convinced that would cause the penny to drop with a lot of United fans.

 

[stefan92]

What, we have to do something really, really stupid for a long time, because that's the only way we can stop being stupid?

Anyone with half a brain already knows that having many years and a squad full of their own players does not turn someone into Sir Alex.

You are absolutely right. But as long as we see people write here "but SAF was given time and came good" @Yagami has a point. It's beyond stupid that this seems a good idea, but still it is true.

 

[CM]

What?! We didn't offer him a new contract, did we?

There was rumour of it but I think it was perpetuated more by the people who wanted to believe something had changed with the new structure, i.e. a new contract with different terms on transfer strategy.

They ended up activating the one year extension on the same terms, presumably to give the illusion of trust after looking elsewhere, which was almost as braindead.

 

[stevoc]

Well if he wasn’t, then why are we giving him shit for not doing it at United? He’s the guy who sets them up tactically to play that way, no?

I was asking a genuine question mate.

 

[Dannn411]

Opta prediction after 5 rounds puts us in eighth spot again, sounds about right, maybe a bit positive.

Extremely optimistic. I struggle to find a team we are comfortably better than right now. Maybe Southampton? Its a toss up with the other 19. That's how bad things are.

 

[soapythecat]

I was asking a genuine question mate.

Sorry, wasn’t a dig but also my thoughts on it. I’m in the camp it’s absolutely on him.

 

[Vault Dweller]

How is this stuff actually predicted? For example they have City 10 points clear of Arsenal which feels...off.

Yeah I'm an analyst by trade and I'm not sure how they can predict a series of games like that. I understand using previous years data, as you would normally. But just seems like trying to do that in sport, especially football, doesn't really work.

 

[laughtersassassin]

So I think all sane people agree it shouldn't matter if we win both of our next two games he should be fired either way.

But I reckon as long as he wins one of 2 he gets to keep his job.

 

[2 man midfield]

So I think all sane people agree it shouldn't matter if we win both of our next two games he should be fired either way.

But I reckon as long as he wins one of 2 he gets to keep his job.

Play like we have been and we’ll lose both. The only thing that’ll save him is us miraculously deciding to turn up, like the 3-0 spurs win under Ole that everyone thought was going to be the final nail.

 

[pocco]

There’s a full season to play for to write off a season in September/early October would be crazy

How anybody can think that changing now has 'little sense' is crazy. Writing off another season has little sense.

 

[SilentWitness]

Yeah I'm an analyst by trade and I'm not sure how they can predict a series of games like that. I understand using previous years data, as you would normally. But just seems like trying to do that in sport, especially football, doesn't really work.

Indeed. Would be interesting if they did a breakdown of metrics and models they use to predict each game!

 

[Yagami]

I've been advocating for the same thing. I've been at the point of apathy for well over a year now.

We now need to see this through for an actual real cultural change within the club. If holding onto him long enough pushes Old Trafford over the edge into vocally asking for his head, that'll do us more good long term than another season in the EL next season.

Yep, I agree. I've been critical of ten Hag since his first transfer window indicated to me he wasn't set on playing possession football, and have wanted him out for a while, but we've made our bed by keeping him, and I want us to lie in it. Backing out may save this season from embarrassment but won't help in the long run.

It's like the Phoenix rising from the ashes. We need to hit rock bottom to force a cultural change that will allow us to compete at the top long term.

I'm still not convinced that would cause the penny to drop with a lot of United fans.

Probably not, no, but it's better than going round in circles like we have been doing for over a decade now.

You are absolutely right. But as long as we see people write here "but SAF was given time and came good" @Yagami has a point. It's beyond stupid that this seems a good idea, but still it is true.

It's not just people on here. It's a significant portion of the worldwide fan base. I'm from Manchester and go to games and that opinion is a very popular one. We need something drastic like this to change that mindset. After the final against City, the majority wanted to keep ten Hag. Let's give them what they want until they see that it's not going to benefit the club, and then if future managers are clearly out of their depth, there will be no hesitancy in criticising the job they're doing.

 

[stevoc]

Sorry, wasn’t a dig but also my thoughts on it. I’m in the camp it’s absolutely on him.

No worries mate.

I'd agree at United its definitely mostly Ten Hags fault for our struggles.

 

[stefan92]

It's not just people on here. It's a significant portion of the worldwide fan base. I'm from Manchester and go to games and that opinion is a very popular one

Sure, I believe that it's a broader issue. Just for me this forum is the only place where I regularly talk to United fans, so I just think of this

 

[laughtersassassin]

Play like we have been and we’ll lose both. The only thing that’ll save him is us miraculously deciding to turn up, like the 3-0 spurs win under Ole that everyone thought was going to be the final nail.

I expect even if we don't play well we will fluke one win and he keeps his job for another few weeks/months.

That's what happened constantly with him so far

 

[Statue of Limitations]

85.3% say sack, that's fairly conclusive.

 

[stevoc]

Probably not, no, but it's better than going round in circles like we have been doing for over a decade now.

I get what you're saying but personally I'd prefer to look forward and if we at least try to get back to the top under a different manager. In a relatively short period of time.

Just ignore the people who waffle on about give the manager time, give him until Xmas/Summer, Fergie got 6 years, breaking cycles and all the rest of the shite they spout. Once the new managers in place the majority will just switch their allegiance to him anyway. And the faith in the new messiah will begin.

 

[Yagami]

Sure, I believe that it's a broader issue. Just for me this forum is the only place where I regularly talk to United fans, so I just think of this

Makes sense! I know you're a Hannover fan but, for the longest time, I thought you were a United fan, too! Either way, I think you're a great poster and make some great posts about United

 

[John XII]

It's not just people on here. It's a significant portion of the worldwide fan base. I'm from Manchester and go to games and that opinion is a very popular one. We need something drastic like this to change that mindset. After the final against City, the majority wanted to keep ten Hag. Let's give them what they want until they see that it's not going to benefit the club, and then if future managers are clearly out of their depth, there will be no hesitancy in criticising the job they're doing.

I think, to be fair, the argument is more that stability brings success. The first 2 seasons under ETH have been anything but stable what with the takeover and injuries so I don't think that theory has really been put to the test yet.

 

[Berbaclass]

85.3% say sack, that's fairly conclusive.

We all know it's when not if now.

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

85.3% say sack, that's fairly conclusive.

The other 15% are probably supporters from other clubs how would love him to stay.

 

[Adz_99]

I expect even if we don't play well we will fluke one win and he keeps his job for another few weeks/months.

That's what happened constantly with him so far

Winning away to Porto feels like a long shot and we are going to get absolutely trounced by Villa. 3 day turnaround from an away European trip, dreadful form, against a team in good form with a very good home record.

Imagine 10 years ago telling somebody that Aston Villa were a champions league side and we were mid table/bottom half club... thanks Glazers.

 

[Skills]

I get what you're saying but personally I'd prefer to look forward and if we at least try to get back to the top under a different manager. In a relatively short period of time.

Just ignore the people who waffle on about give the manager time, give him until Xmas/Summer, Fergie got 6 years, breaking cycles and all the rest of the shite they spout. Once the new managers in place the majority will just switch their allegiance to him anyway. And the faith in the new messiah will begin.

That'll put us back in the same mess again.

Ask yourself this, what happens if we get our Di Matteo and fluke a big trophy? How far someone like that be allowed to sink the club? Relegation?

We need completely destroy this mindset within the clubs fanbase. And that won't happen until we're willing to see this one out. We've already invested 600m and 2 years into this so let's get something out of it.

 

[pocco]

85.3% say sack, that's fairly conclusive.

Funny to see all these posters coming in to let us know they've finally changed to sack in the vote. Now we get to see who these 20% were. Mostly newbies by the looks of it, who don't post much. As expected.

 

[Yagami]

I get what you're saying but personally I'd prefer to look forward and if we at least try to get back to the top under a different manager. In a relatively short period of time.

Just ignore the people who waffle on about give the manager time, give him until Xmas/Summer, Fergie got 6 years, breaking cycles and all the rest of the shite they spout. Once the new managers in place the majority will just switch their allegiance to him anyway. And the faith in the new messiah will begin.

That's completely reasonable. I mean, that's the ideal way and I'd love it if it were to happen the way you say rather than what I'm saying. I just think we'll end up going round in circles again, so I'm all for the drastic action approach.

I echo @Skills post above.

I think, to be fair, the argument is more that stability brings success. The first 2 seasons under ETH have been anything but stable what with the takeover and injuries so I don't think that theory has really been put to the test yet.

This is another reason as to why I'm for keeping ten Hag. We need to keep him until there are no excuses left. Until the fan base can just admit that he himself was not good enough.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I'm still not convinced that would cause the penny to drop with a lot of United fans.

Correct.

There's still people defending some of our post-Fergie ex-managers, despite the fact that they were all monumental failures. The only argument to be had is who was the "least worst" of the lot. And, that's up to personal preference. I genuinely believe the weird affiliation to managers will continue unabated, no matter how much further we fall.

 

[stefan92]

Makes sense! I know you're a Hannover fan but, for the longest time, I thought you were a United fan, too! Either way, I think you're a great poster and make some great posts about United

Thanks a lot! I always had a soft spot for United as well (which is why I'm here). It's actually easy to be a fan of both as both clubs are operating in completely different spheres. Sadly in Hannover's case, I'd be happy if Hannover had United's problems

 

[John XII]

Correct.

There's still people defending some our post-Fergie ex-managers, despite the fact that they were all monumental failures. The only argument to be had is who was the "least worst" of the lot. And, that's up to personal preference. I genuinely believe the weird affiliation to managers will continue unabated, no matter how much further we fall.

It's not correct to just single out the managers imo. The club has been an absolute disaster from top to bottom for years.

 

[Berbaclass]

Can’t afford not to sack.

 

[stefan92]

I think, to be fair, the argument is more that stability brings success. The first 2 seasons under ETH have been anything but stable what with the takeover and injuries so I don't think that theory has really been put to the test yet.

That's exactly the problem. It's not stability that brings success, it's the other way round. Success brings stability. If you prove that you are the right one for a job by being successful (and in this regard small steps forward can be counted as success) you deserve more time and can enter a phase of stability. If it turns out that you are not up to the job keeping you only deepens the trouble.

 

[pocco]

That's completely reasonable. I mean, that's the ideal way and I'd love it if it were to happen the way you say rather than what I'm saying. I just think we'll end up going round in circles again, so I'm all for the drastic action approach.

I echo @Skills post above.

This is another reason as to why I'm for keeping ten Hag. We need to keep him until there are no excuses left. Until the fan base can just admit that he himself was not good enough.

I get what you're both saying and wish I could be of the same mindset, as our fans deserve this. But for me personally, it's not good for my health watching this

I don't know how I'd get through another year or more of this. It was hard enough knowing early doors that both he and Ole weren't the one, but having to wait 12-24 months for the rest of the fans (some other fans also saw it early on and shared the same concerns) and media to realise it too. It's like torture when you can see what will happen and why, and it starts slowly playing out. But others just make excuse after excuse, whilst you're just ready for it to end and for us to move on.

 

[spwd]

85.3% say sack, that's fairly conclusive.

You'd probably get a closer representation if the poll was posted in the general so the newbies couldn't vote.

 

[Apokalips]

How can your desire for the direction of the club be based on a constant coin flip, one off game type of strategy? That's an incredibly shortsighted and dumb approach, and I'm sure you're a relatively intelligent person. Do people get caught up in backing an opinion to such an extent that they end up dead on that hill finding it hard to admit they were wrong?

It seems that way, people lose their logic over our managers for some reason. These same individuals would undoubtedly not treat their own businesses this way nor would they have the same opinion about other clubs managers but when it comes to ours there is this weird almost cognitive dissonance that happens.

 

[redcucumber]

That's exactly the problem. It's not stability that brings success, it's the other way round. Success brings stability. If you prove that you are the right one for a job by being successful (and in this regard small steps forward can be counted as success) you deserve more time and can enter a phase of stability. If it turns out that you are not up to the job keeping you only deepens the trouble.

Good post.

 

[John XII]

That's exactly the problem. It's not stability that brings success, it's the other way round. Success brings stability. If you prove that you are the right one for a job by being successful (and in this regard small steps forward can be counted as success) you deserve more time and can enter a phase of stability. If it turns out that you are not up to the job keeping you only deepens the trouble.

Yet we all know that there's not a single manager on the planet who could have been successful over the last 10 years with the way the club has been run.

 

[Yorkeontop]

I still believe in Erik. This 24 hour media cycle is monstrous, and it loves feeding on United.

 

[stefan92]

Yet we all know that there's not a single manager on the planet who could have been successful over the last 10 years with the way the club has been run.

I always argued that (most - Mou, LVG, Ole somewhat, even EtH) of United managers post SAF had decent success for a reasonable/normal amount of time and stayed in the job similarly long to most other top clubs in Europe. And that the club always messed up choosing the right successor to advance based on that, instead their choices meant rebuilding everything.

 

[Robbie Boy]

It's not correct to just single out the managers imo. The club has been an absolute disaster from top to bottom for years.

I wouldn't dispute that. But based on what also happens on the pitch, it's fair to say that we haven't appointed particularly well. A bigger problem though, is that we keep underperforming managers on far longer than we should.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I always argued that (most - Mou, LVG, Ole somewhat, even EtH) of United managers post SAF had decent success for a reasonable/normal amount of time and stayed in the job similarly long to most other top clubs in Europe. And that the club always messed up choosing the right successor to advance based on that, instead their choices meant rebuilding everything.

That's a good point too. If Jose and Ole had been let go after their second place finishes when it was clear they'd taken the team as far as they could, and then the club built on those seasons instead of throwing all the progress away, I think their respective tenures would be viewed much more positively today.