I highly doubt ETH has much say in whether we keep Greenwood or not. And if he did, then that’s a pretty damning indictment of how our club is run. ETH’s opinion should be solely about whether he would or wouldn’t want Greenwood here based on his football. The decision in the round about keeping Greenwood is, whether we like it or not and whether it’s fair or not, a PR and commercial question. And these shouldn’t be up to ETH, we should have more qualified and appropriate people at the club who weigh up the pros and cons of such a debate.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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the scouts put together a list and Erik chose his guy. There are about 25 wingers in the EPL alone with better offensive productivity than Antony.....
As some will know, I’m typically not a great fan of all this ‘structure’ talk at clubs - but I do feel Ten Hag represents a perfect example of that. Clearly a brilliant manager, but doesn’t inspire me with confidence in many other ways. Firstly, he actually saw fit to bring Wout Weghorst to Manchester United, which is plenty reason enough to doubt him. His squad rotation has also raised some eyebrows and I have little idea about what sort of team he wants to build, stylistically speaking. The profile of many of his signings make little sense and contradict what everyone tells me his footballing philosophy is supposed to be. A Casemiro, Mount, Bruno midfield = 50% possession. It’s a Liverpool midfield, although we don’t have the explosive forwards that prime Liverpool had. It’s all a little mix and match to me.
This is where people get this signing wrong and quite frankly how the team can be set up to play. It's not as simple as saying we have those three in the midfield therefore we won't have possession. We have Martinez who will step into the midfield from the defensive line. Is he a poor passer? We have Shaw who can step into the midfield. Is he a poor passer? Malacia basically becomes a midfielder. Is he a poor passer? Dalot comes into the midfield. Is he a poor passer? Its about creating numerical advantages that assist in progressing play and is not down solely to three midfielders. Mount and Bruno like to get forward and go out wide to link with the winger to create numerical advantages. That will help both Rashford and Antony in progressing play into the opposition box. You might say Bruno and Mount being too far forward will hamper us defensively and progressing play but it won't because there are nine other players on the pitch to assist with that. Five if you exclude the forwards. Like I mentioned in my first few sentences we will have players who step into the midfield to assist in those areas against counterattacks as well as progress play. Do people somehow not remember the terrific City side of a few years ago with a midfield of KDB, Silva, and Fernandinho? That really isn't that much different that the three you just ridiculed. Bruno is just as good a passer as KDB and also likes to go wide. Mount (not as good as Silva) can turn under pressure to beat his man much like Silva. And Casemiro is far superior to Fernandinho. It's really nowhere near the workhorse trio of Liverpool's yesteryear because man for man ours are all superior on the ball.
Surely he can do that in a preseason though. If we are going to play him I see zero reason to loan him out as quite frankly he's still going to be one of the most talented players in world football and plays in a position we're in dire need of bodies but that's if we are going to play him. I personally suspect we will as he is an extremely valuable talent and his presence could be used by the owners as justification to not go and sign a Kane, or Osimhen.
Exactly, and add Onana to those soon hopefully who is basically another center back with great distribution. People think it is that midfield of 3 and that's it, that we will have huge hole between midfield and defense for some reason.
Yeah exactly, add him into the mix and he will plug the holes left by Shaw, Dalot, Martinez etc. If people want to get an idea of how we will play, the last few games of the season were kind of a barometer in that we saw Eriksen moving away from Casemiro at times to form a two with Bruno behind the striker. Malacia does extremely well in these scenarios as he will completely leave the wing and come into the midfield.
Edit: Just thought of this as well. I think its because people get hung up on formations as if they dictate how your going to play. Formations are extremely fluid and depend on the phase of play your in as well as the style of play you wish to instill. I first learned this after England played Iceland at Euro 2016, they had Hoddle on the tele talking about the mistakes England made during the game specifically talking about the fullbacks and how they didn't push high enough up the pitch, but the infographic they used showed perfectly how even though we would be a "4-3-3" on paper, it would really turn into a 3 at the back or even 2 at the back depending on the phase of play as the fullbacks would get forwards etc.
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Some reasonable points, although you brushed past the David Silva/Mason Mount thing far too casually.
Anyway, Mount isn’t a bad player at all. In fact, he’s a good one. Just not good enough. And you have to be careful about filling your team with good but nothing special players as sooner than later, you just hit a ceiling and the team can’t be much better than good but not good enough.
Someone has to be special, and decide games at the top level. Bruno, who you basically inferred was some sort of equal to De Bruyne is miles behind him in terms of impacting games on the biggest of occasions. Someone has to do it. Bruno has not been able to do it. Mount won’t in my opinion. We can be as organised as anything but we’ll quickly just become the Marcus Rashford team unless we add real top quality. We’ll just be there hoping that he ‘does something’. Bruno makes impact on games, but De Bruyne wins games against Chelsea, Arsenal, United etc with very high frequency. I’ve said it before, but I’d have been going after Szoboszlai instead of Mount, who has the attributes to be that player. Or even Caicedo who we know can show up and make the difference in those games. I just don’t see that with Mount, good player that he is. He’s basically another one hoping someone else will do it, but we’re running out of someone else’s because only Rashford seemingly can. Or a Casemiro header or something.
That's my hope but he needs to do it in a big league (Spain / Italy / England).
First off yeah Mason Mount is not as good as David Silva was for sure, but he doesn't have to be. That's the exact benefit of the system as the whole is greater than the sum. Remember a lot of City players don't look good once outside of that system, same as we have found with Dortmund for instance.
Second, Bruno is one of the most productive players in world football and never gets a rest. In the last two seasons alone, Bruno has played 1000 more minutes in the Premier League per season than KDB, and he is usually the sole presser from the midfield into the forward line (Martial was never going to press nor was Ronaldo, neither does Rashford really) so that has to factor into why he doesn't do the business at the end of the season. Also, the quality of player he plays with dictates how good he's going to be. KDB played with Silva x2, Aguero, Haaland, Mahrez etc. Bruno until this season was playing with a three of McTominay and Fred with Rashford out on the left and Dan James on the right and Ronaldo up front with Ighalo before that (I'm not leaving Cavani out but while good, still wasn't Aguero or Haaland good) and even then Bruno has 76 g+a in 124 Premier league games while KDB has 169 g+a in 242 Premier League games. Both are astonishing.
Third, how can you say that Mount can't make the difference? He literally got the game winning assist in the Champions League final two seasons ago against City of all teams. His first two full seasons at Chelsea showed him get 12 g+a in 36 games and then 21 g+a in 32 games. Even this season where he was supposedly terrible he was one of Chelsea's most productive players. Even if you don't want to talk figures like those, his underlying stats show he's one of the best progressers of the ball within the league. To compare him to Caicedo who predominately sits behind their creative player shows you completely disregarded what I said about the midfield being the be all end all in regards to possession. I understand we need players who can produce that bit of magic and we most certainly do, but we still have Bruno, we still have Rashford, I believe that Antony will show more next season but that remains to be seen, and I am sure we will sign a striker this summer otherwise we will most likely have Greenwood coming back who is someone who can produce magic also (I won't get into merit arguments about having him back or not).
I don't think De Bruyne wins games on his own. The dude plays for a team that on any given weekend, one of their offensive players will win them a game because of the numerical dominance thet impose and how many chances they create. Compare Bruno's impact for Portugal with KdB's for Belgium and therein a fairer comparison. As for dominating midfields, Arsenal managed to do it with Xhaka and Partey. On paper that was barely considered a Europa League midfield but with the way they played and intelligence of players moving in and out of positions, they still managed to create consistent passing lanes and patterns to create numerical advantages all over the pitch. We just really don't know the intricacies on coaching well enough to know what profile of players would work and in what way.
He hasn't played for two years nearly, he's going to need regularly gametime which we can't afford from the off. I imagine it'll be Garacho-Rashford-Antony the forward line that plays the majority of the first cluster of games as we need to hit the ground running.
To be completely fair as the head coach its ETH's job to put the football first. I say this as someone who does not want MG back in the team. It's not ETH's responsibility to deal with that, that's on the higher level club management to make that call. His job is to work with the players that he has available. Something outside of that scope, such as the ethical dilemma of letting MG back or not should be up to the upper management.
The hyperbole regarding De Bruyne on here has hit new heights. I think people on here(not aiming this at Rozay either) seem to think he's a mix of Xavi/Zidane despite him being a very careless passer as well(his passing accuracy compared to Bruno's is eerily similar) and having plenty of stinkers that go unnoticed(which is normal, he's not infallible).
I also agree with the broader part. A system to create numerical overloads that our players/coaches maximize will help us in possession recycling against the best teams. We've already seen the use of Shaw/Malacia and Dalot coming inwards to create a numerical advantage in midfield. Martinez can also come into midfield if Ten Hag wishes to employ that during build-up phases. The hopeful signing of Onana also helps our possession recycling and it'll help our pressing, because we can push our defensive line up higher and Mount + Bruno should excel in this system. I'm sure we'll see an improvement in ball recycling versus the best teams this season. There were already some positive signs in certain games last season
Our potential midfield being deemed 'workman-like' was fairly off the mark too I'd say. Bruno's chance creation numbers are up there with De Bruyne's and far better than any Liverpool midfielder in the past. Also Casemiro is fairly productive for a DM.
He regularly decides big games for City. He’s the one that often steps up when they need him in the big moments.
The nonsense about Bruno invalidates the whole post.
Seen.
That is just not true. Unless we have a very different understanding of the word regularly.
I also don't think Greenwood should be back but I agree on this.
The guy has 0.25 of a fit forward at best in Martial and it's looking like he'll get one good potential striker in Hojlund if we don't mess that up.
At worst, we should have a Kane and Greenwood type behind him for competition or rotation (could be Hojlund, could be Ferguson) and at the moment we're not even close.
Greenwood has shown be can also play on the right as well, so he's perfect for EtH's image of having a versatile front line.
I think Erik‘s plan for MU is a good fit, so it is very possible to do so.
I think the idea was to do this with LvG, but it never got off the ground, the patient possession style he was implementing was rejected.
Then we fecked up miserably by appointing Mourinho instead of a more modern manager who prefers attacking football. Mourinho‘s style was anti-football.
I think we are back on track now with an exciting playstyle not based on possession but fast transitions and pressing.
Makes sense. Loan him out and gauge the public’s reaction while getting to see how his ability has been affected by being out for so long.
Yeah I think Antony should be given more time. To make a comparison: Grealish cost the same or more and didn‘t play much the first season.Yes exactly, the choice wasn’t between Antony and nobody, but between Antony and someone better *and* cheaper (maybe even someone with two feet).
ETH should get credit for successful signings like Martinez, and for getting more out of players like AWB, but we should also be honest and recognise that his record hasn’t been 100%, and the signing of Antony could be placed in that negative column (so far).
Antony played almost everything for us out of necessity and did alright for the most part. Whether he was worth 90 million determines to be seen. I believe the potential is there.
Is that not what is happening? EtH wants to keep him for football reasons, the rest is up to the club.
My post was more in reflection of some of the discussion about ETH in this thread.
No one here knows how the conversation went. Someone at board level may just have asked ETH how he thinks about Greenwood in terms of ability, suitability to his system, etc. Greenwood has not played or trained a single minute under ETH after all. ETH most likely said a match fit Greenwood would be a real asset to him, he rates him highly as a footballer, etc.
For journalists that would be enough to write ETH does not want to sell him.
For journalists that would be enough to write ETH does not want to sell him.
I have not seen anything so far that indicates that the club is not handling the issue well. For some this is a clear-cut situation, but for me it is nuanced.
Disagree strongly with Erik on this one. Bin him off, no way should he ever step foot on the pitch in a United shirt ever again.
It's the right thing to do. We spend millions on our academy and have invested a lot into Greenwood.
If we sold him now we would get peanuts but of he goes somewhere on loan and is their best player. Which say he went to Spurs after they sell Kane would be a reasonable guess. Then we could ask something like what he's worth based on footballing ability.
He should never play for us again on principle but we don't have to be martyrs.
My definition is the most common I imagine. De Bruyne seems to score a lot of goals, often winning goals, against teams like Chelsea, Arsenal, United. Big goal in the Bernabeu this season. He’s regularly a difference. When City aren’t playing well there have been plenty key 1-0 De Bruyne games, or even 2-0 De Bruyne x2 games over the years. Big free-kick at Leicester jn the run-in last season.
I don’t see it as a controversial take in the slightest. He turns up in these moments very often.
Bruno has never played in a champions league semi final in his life, has never won a league title in his career yet he's 28 years old but he's so important in some form of ways.
How do we as United been drawn this down that we rave over players who have achieved nothing in their careers, and continue to do so in their United careers with zero real accomplishment other than stats padded narratives.
Bruno has never been involved in a highly decisive club game in his career where he has performed anything meaningful, never.
KDB has delivered for city in Premier League in ways Bruno can only wish in his dreams.
This season alone double header against Arsenal, KDB scored 3 goals, + 1 assist to tilt the title to City's favour.
2021-2022 season the decisive last game against Villa, KDB made the last assist for Gundogan 3rd goal, to win the title. The matches against Liverpool(main challengers) he scored also. Those are stats in big big games, decisive games with genuine rewards.
Look at someone like Rodri,
2021-2022 season he scored the Vital equalizer against Villa to drag is team back to the title.
This season he scored the vital winning champions league goal.Its not luck, it's being a big game player.
Big game players generally win big titles. Etoo, Sneijder, Drogba come to mind.That's what we lack now.
We are full of very ordinary players, who have achieved absolutely nothing big, but are being treated like some big game players who will bring big titles to Old Trafford.
I've said in this forum frequently, what we need is to support ETH when he decides to ship out 95% of these players that we have. We need new players who can achieve the big game player levels by the 27-28 years period with ease.
I think KDB is better, but City won the league on a couple of occasions in season he struggled with injuries and missed significant time.
Imo that means he does care about what's the best for United. Regardless of how you hate Greenwood you simply can't deny his talent and potential. It's the best for us to not introduce him back now but who knows about the future. Especially looking at how dire the striker market is. So imo it's not a bad thing for us to keep possession of him.
Or maybe ETH does believe in second chance and the possibility for a person to change, to become a better one. There're many who did much worse and still got their second chance. I've seen some here argue because he's famous so things must be different for him, no second chance for him. But I'd bet those also complain about the privileges of famous people and want famous people to be treated the same as normal people, no privilege. That's a bit double standard imo and tbh I can't understand the logic behind.
And then we have Best who used to beat the shit out of his wifes and most here still consider him a legend and one of us. For me that's difficult to understand as well.
KdB scored one 7 league goals this last season. One of them being the winner against relegated Leicester. He scored twice once against Arsenal in their 4/1 win. The rest were goals in games where they won by a margin of 2 or more goals. In the CL, he had that goals vs Real Madrid. I wouldn't call that consistently coming up with the decisive goal.
But even if he did do it more regularly, that still wouldn't negate the point I and @Eddy_JukeZ are trying to make which is that we have to take into consideration the positions and flow KdB finds himself in compared to Bruno. I am not comparing their abilities here, I am saying that it's unfair to judge their output when one has been playing for a team that has been consistent in how it plays, dominates the ball most of the time and commit so many players forward every game. When KdB doesn't deliver, Gündogan would, when David Silva leaves, Bernardo comes in. It's reminiscent of our great midfield of Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Butt and Giggs. It seemed like every week one of them would pop up with the decisive pass or goal because we dominated so much and put teams under so much pressure that eventually the chance would fall for one of them brilliant players. Bruno is in a completely different situation, some games he has to defend, most of the time he has to make do with 30 or 40% possession against the top teams where we create very little. It's just an unfair comparison. My point about comparing them internationally is that there is a closer level of what's around them and how much that setup helps or handicap them. If KdB was a game changer solely because of skillset, he'd have transfered that elsewhere. That doesn't mean Bruno is better, it just means, let's give them similar platform consistently and then we can judge.
Anyone worried about not signing a back up for Casemiro? We can’t hang our hopes on Mcfred. Rice and now Caicedo are off the table. Who do we go for as a quality option? We can’t go with Casemiro alone into next season. Surely not?
Who was Rodri's backup? Or Busquets? Or Casemiro's at Real? Anyone that good will just not sign for you if they know they are there to play backup. It's one thing having different options for certain positions but when a position has a clear starter like the DM or main striker, it's really rare to get a top quality backup. The squad has to adjust and tactically be flexible to cover for the occasional game where Casemiro is not available.
See Pep is a weirdo. He can make it happen even without a DM. Also, Rodri is always present as was Busquets. We can’t say the same about Casemiro as we found out last season when he got suspended multiple times. On top of that, although injured but city did sign a back up in Phillips before that there was Fernandinho and Pep also deployed stones there with Rodri when he changed the set up.
It’s all well and good saying the squad has to adjust and tactically be flexible in Casemiro’s absence. Well we tried that last season and struggled badly without him. We have no one. Literally no one. Going into the season without a Casemiro back up would be suicidal in my opinion.
I agree.
But if we have no money available to buy another DM/CM, what can we do?
A cheap loanee will likely turn out like Weghorst - absolutely useless and worse that Scott McT.
I agree it’s a problem if we don’t have the money to buy a back up. That’s why I’m also worried. I don’t want to see mcfred as our options at all.
I was using the example of City, Barcelona and Real, not only to show that some of the best teams did fine without an official backup but also to illustrate that it's unrealistic to convince someone of top quality to come in as backup. There is a difference between a squad option and that your official role is to be backup for some who will always start when fit. Another example would be Liverpool with Fabinho or Chelsea when they won the league with Kanté. When you have someone everyone knows will always start, good enough options will just not be interested. Look at Alvarez now with City, he comes in with a humble profile, does well for one season and suddenly there are murmurs of him looking for a loan or a move.
Our record in the 8 games we played without Casemiro last season is 5 wins, 1 draw and 2 defeats to eventual 2nd and 4th in the league away from home. That's not a collapse by any means and you'd have to expect us to get better in the marginals and other areas on the pitch and have better squad options overall in the season. If our seasons hinges on not having a like for like backup for Casemiro, then we will have failed for other reasons.
Yes, it's very important. Need to get the keeper and striker sorted first, then backups for Casemiro and Martinez. McTominay isn't up to the job in my opinion and whilst Shaw is perfectly adept at covering for Martinez, it weakens us at left back. Rabiot would have been ideal, but he has just signed an extension.
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