Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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roonster09 said:
It's obvious who is. I called it long back, spot on.
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A CF back up came on to play no 10, pushing Bruno to the wing, where there are midfielders, wingers stay unused sub?

Why is it well received that captain Maguire only have couple appearances since Sevilla when our best LB had to play CB?

You're spot on about you're detached from a reality that Weghorst having playing a good amount of minutes even as sub, where he had negative influence on the team, and the outcome of the game.
 
ti vu said:
A CF back up came on to play no 10, pushing Bruno to the wing, where there are midfielders, wingers stay unused sub?

Why is it well received that captain Maguire only have couple appearances since Sevilla when our best LB had to play CB?

You're spot on about you're detached from a reality that Weghorst having playing a good amount of minutes even as sub, where he had negative influence on the team, and the outcome of the game.
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Because you don't sub-in a CB like you sub-in attacker, it's not really that hard. How many teams changes their CBs in the last few mins of the game?

Yes I know I'm spot on. Anyone who expects 0 mins for a back up CF when main CF is injury prone player is detached from reality.
 
Wout Weghorst is a short-term place holder due to Ronaldo's ego getting the better of him. And I'm actually quite surprised why one would be angry at a emergency loan signing.

And in the game yesterday we had become very predictable, and bringing Weghorst wasn't the worst decision, especially at a time Bournemouth were about to defend high up the pitch and hence we were going to go direct because our problems in the first phase meant going direct is the best ploy against teams who pressure us high. Hence ten Hag mentioned pre match that our problems away from home are to do with our inability to play out from the back.

When you have amongst the deepest defensive lines in the league due to the problems at the back, which resonate from the goalkeeper. Then kicking it long via the keeper against coordinated pressure is a ploy that suits players who are weak on the ball at the back and hence ten Hag has played Weghorst in the space off the front line to try and win the second balls. Weghorst isn't great in that regard but he's much better than Bruno and the rest of the options in attack when attempting to win second balls due to the issues at the back.

So we're playing a brand of football that is compromised and it's about getting to the check point that is the champions league qualification. And then Weghorst we'll be gone and we'll attempt to bring in the striker and goalkeeper, CM etc who will enable us to dominate the ball even against the press in our defensive third.

For ten Hag to implement his version of 'positional play' a goalkeeper will be a far bigger factor than a striker. Even-though a striker is absolutely needed and we're missing a top quality focal point. And that's because the key to dominating games via rondos (triangles) starts with the goalkeeper and the other players occupying positions in the defensive third, which requires a high level of technical security in possession.
 
Adnan said:
Wout Weghorst is a short-term place holder due to Ronaldo's ego getting the better of him. And I'm actually quite surprised why one would be angry at a emergency loan signing.
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I don't think the anger is coming from the loan itself, more so ETH's persistence in trying to prove it wasn't a mistake. He's out of his depth and possibly the worst striker that's ever played for the club. Unless he's going to be here next season what's the point in introducing him. Even worse pushing Bruno out wide to introduce him. At this point it's become a bit ridiculous he's not at least trying something different.
 
Conor said:
WhoScored had him at a 7.11 rating, and he was growing into the game(as someone that hasn't played a lot recently), but yeah let's whip him at 55 mins for a guy who should be playing League 1 football.
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You’d be in here pissing your knickers if Martial were to pick up an injury due to a lack of rOtAtIoN over the 90.

Weghorst gets minutes because we have few options. He barely starts a game now that Martial is in the first team, so any argument for a love affair is simply not grounded in evidence.
 
roonster09 said:
Because you don't sub-in a CB like you sub-in attacker, it's not really that hard. How many teams changes their CBs in the last few mins of the game?

Yes I know I'm spot on. Anyone who expects 0 mins for a back up CF when main CF is injury prone player is detached from reality.
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ETH made unforced subbed CB quite a fair few: Brentford away. Arsenal home. Southampton home. Leeds home and away. Newcastle away. Liverpool away. Nottingham home. Everton home. Manchester City home. Chelsea away... There are few more. You get the point?

The point being. Maguire rightfully got dropped after failing his job. He had feck all minutes because he was not needed. He had his sub to help defend the box which he's good at. ETH is commended to make this decisions even that's against the captain.

However, ETH rightfully raise people eyebrows with his judgement on Weghorst where Weghorst negatively affect the team and result, where he's neither good as CF nor no 10. His minutes are not meaningless. It's not like we're cruising with 3 goal lead.

A back up CF that came on against Tottenham to play as no 10 where Martial and Rashford were on the pitch. That's when the team still had the lead, only to end up losing the game.

Spot on. Off to the cuckooland with your delusion.
 
NLunited said:
We were playing well, the 1-0 was undeserved.
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Oh, I guess that's why we subbed him off at half time. Probably the only time we subbed player off at half time this season too.
 
NLunited said:
RR is a good manager who could not make an impact at United. No need to give him the nasty.
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In 38 years of management in football and 760 matches, he’s won one major trophy, a German Cup. Even that trophy was sort of contrived, he came in during the semifinals and beat a Bundesliga 2 team to win it. He’s not a good manager, never has been. He has the worst record as a United manager since Frank O’Farrell in 1972.
 
Shark said:
I don't think the anger is coming from the loan itself, more so ETH's persistence in trying to prove it wasn't a mistake. He's out of his depth and possibly the worst striker that's ever played for the club. Unless he's going to be here next season what's the point in introducing him. Even worse pushing Bruno out wide to introduce him. At this point it's become a bit ridiculous he's not at least trying something different.
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Always enjoy reading Caf presumptions.
 
Shark said:
I don't think the anger is coming from the loan itself, more so ETH's persistence in trying to prove it wasn't a mistake. He's out of his depth and possibly the worst striker that's ever played for the club. Unless he's going to be here next season what's the point in introducing him. Even worse pushing Bruno out wide to introduce him. At this point it's become a bit ridiculous he's not at least trying something different.
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Erik ten Hag isn't persisting with Weghorst imo, but is rather persisting with certain players who have made him compromise his playstyle. If we could play out from the back via the positional play principles and raise the defensive line, then Weghorst wouldn't be required to play centrally. He's being played centrally due to a lack of on the ball control against teams who apply pressure high up the pitch. And going direct from the back means we have to contest second balls, hence Bruno is moved in to the half spaces and Weghorst takes up the position centrally to attempt to win the second balls.

And imo, he made the right move bringing Weghorst on yesterday because Bournemouth had started to press higher and higher due to chasing the game. And in that situation going direct was a good move and hence we then needed someone to at least attempt to win the second balls in the air or on the ground.

We're a team who has the deepest defensive line in the league. And that tells us two things, 1: we can't progress play effectively against a coordinated press 2: we can't raise the defensive line. And it's the biggest reason we haven't scored enough goals in the last 10 years. Whilst teams who can maintain a high-line and play through the press, score the most goals in the league. Brighton with Danny Welbeck as their striker being one example this season.

And what that does, it effects us collectively where we can't implement a proactive attacking approach throughout a game consistently, hence we can't press high in a compact high block due to not being able to play out against coordinated pressure on a consistent basis. And hence compromises and adaptations have to be made by ten Hag to get the results now and then reassess in the summer to get closer to making us a team who dominates the ball.
 
Arguing with another member
ti vu said:
ETH made unforced subbed CB quite a fair few: Brentford away. Arsenal home. Southampton home. Leeds home and away. Newcastle away. Liverpool away. Nottingham home. Everton home. Manchester City home. Chelsea away... There are few more. You get the point?

The point being. Maguire rightfully got dropped after failing his job. He had feck all minutes because he was not needed. He had his sub to help defend the box which he's good at. ETH is commended to make this decisions even that's against the captain.

However, ETH rightfully raise people eyebrows with his judgement on Weghorst where Weghorst negatively affect the team and result, where he's neither good as CF nor no 10. His minutes are not meaningless. It's not like we're cruising with 3 goal lead.

A back up CF that came on against Tottenham to play as no 10 where Martial and Rashford were on the pitch. That's when the team still had the lead, only to end up losing the game.

Spot on. Off to the cuckooland with your delusion.
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feck off with your "OMG Weghorst played 6 mins vs Brighton when I expected him to play 4 mins" bs and while you are at it, take your head off your arse too, you might see some sense.

It is meaningless, anyone with bit of sense or brain knows it but then it might be too much to expect. He averages around or less than 20 mins per game (since Martial came back, excluding Newcastle game as that was the game he was back,) and that's with injury prone CF, injured Rashford and Garnacho. That's nothing.

Even if you include Newcastle game, he averages 22 mins in league, and 23 mins overall. Excluding Newcastle game he averages 18 mins in league. Yeah that's nothing, no matter how much you twist and turn with nonsense like "he played 2 mins more in that game, 1.5 mins in one more game".
 
DSG said:
In 38 years of management in football and 760 matches, he’s won one major trophy, a German Cup. Even that trophy was sort of contrived, he came in during the semifinals and beat a Bundesliga 2 team to win it. He’s not a good manager, never has been. He has the worst record as a United manager since Frank O’Farrell in 1972.
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Sigh. I'm tired of this. RR had the short end of everything. The club didn't back him in January and everyone knew the club hadn't backed him. It's impossible to compare him with other permanent managers.

The fact that ETH, with the influence associated with being a permanent manager, has implemented a large number of the things RR tried to do should be obvious.

Now try doing those things with slabhead, ronnie, Pogba and lingard stinking up the dressing room
 
roonster09 said:
feck off with your "OMG Weghorst played 6 mins vs Brighton when I expected him to play 4 mins" bs and while you are at it, take your head off your arse too, you might see some sense.

It is meaningless, anyone with bit of sense or brain knows it but then it might be too much to expect. He averages around or less than 20 mins per game (since Martial came back, excluding Newcastle game as that was the game he was back,) and that's with injury prone CF, injured Rashford and Garnacho. That's nothing.

Even if you include Newcastle game, he averages 22 mins in league, and 23 mins overall. Excluding Newcastle game he averages 18 mins in league. Yeah that's nothing, no matter how much you twist and turn with nonsense like "he played 2 mins more in that game, 1.5 mins in one more game".
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Average 22 minutes are nothing? Especially in games you need result? Weghorst is getting minutes when he's not needed? So you love us to be one goal down against Newcastle, to lose 2 goal lead against Sevilla, to lose 2-1 lead against Tottenham, to lose against Brighton after defending for our lives for the whole second half?

Why do you get to choose ignore this game or that game? Why excluded cup competitions? Weghorst sat out couple games. Big deal. He made appearances for the rest even when it's not his position.

You didn't recall how many time ETH make unforced CB subs, which he made quite a few this season. You showed yourself up as someone who didn't watch the game. You totally forgot the Newcastle game and now try to bullshit your way out.

Strawman syndrome in display.
 
Weghorst doesn’t match the low expectations of fans. Ok, everyone gets it. But he did help the team in different games. People have short memory really and don’t remember why and how we signed him. Ronaldo produced a shit situation and we didn’t have money in January. He is one of a realistic player we could bring in within the short time window. Even in his case, we had to get multiple parties involved to get it done. It’s just difficult in January and the shit show Ronaldo did.
 
roonster09 said:
fecking hell, I want to call you thick but I already got 2 points in this conversation and that's way too many to waste on someone like you so jog on, not wasting any posts on you, wasted enough time as it is :lol:
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What is this post have anything to do with my previous post?

You can't debate. You earned your points. Don't pretend you're take the high way out.

22 minutes average is not feck all minute. You made a statement that you can't prove when as little as 10 minutes like his sub against Brighton, there was change in result.
 
ti vu said:
What is this post have anything to do with my previous post?

You can't debate. You earned your points. Don't pretend you're take the high way out.

22 minutes average is not feck all minute. You made a statement that you can't prove when as little as 10 minutes like his sub against Brighton, there was change in result.
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You are using goals conceded as a stick to beat Weghorst and you are talking about debating skills. Ironic.

Yeah it was Weghorst who made Shaw to handle the ball or defenders to lose their shit against spurs. It was always the striker who defends the goals, not the defenders or the GK.

22 mins average is a feck all min, you think it is not. Not my problem.

"Pretend to take the high way out" fecking hell wtf is that :lol:
 
roonster09 said:
You are using goals conceded as a stick to beat Weghorst and you are talking about debating skills. Ironic.

Yeah it was Weghorst who made Shaw to handle the ball or defenders to lose their shit against spurs. It was always the striker who defends the goals, not the defenders or the GK.

22 mins average is a feck all min, you think it is not. Not my problem.

"Pretend to take the high way out" fecking hell wtf is that :lol:
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So what Weghorst offered? A CF who couldn't score. Who doesn't create when deployed as no 10. Average fewest passes and touches per minutes. Why people mostly praise him for his defensive off ball effort. If not for his defensive work, what is the point of him getting the minutes?

Did you miss the part where Weghorst messed the clearance unchallenged from the freekick that went out for corner that led to Shaw handball?

The points are proof of your debating skill. Enjoy you problem. It means feck all of course
 
b82REZ said:
Are people actually making a case that Martial wasn't completely useless and ineffective yesterday? Wout isn't the answer but he offered far more than Tony did all game.

Looks like another case of using stats and ratings to form an opinion rather than actually watching the game.

As an aside, it does seem to be prevalent on here that a lot of posters don't actually watch the games; and then form their opinions from highlights, ratings and comments on here.
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Why don't you tag me if you are talking about me? Bit of a snide, pussy move otherwise.

Kag said:
You’d be in here pissing your knickers if Martial were to pick up an injury due to a lack of rOtAtIoN over the 90.

Weghorst gets minutes because we have few options. He barely starts a game now that Martial is in the first team, so any argument for a love affair is simply not grounded in evidence.
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I barely post in the football forums, and I'm not 12 years old, so unless you've mixed me up with someone else, I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion. If Martial had gotten injured, it would be because he's made of glass, not because he played an extra 35 mins.

I have also completely back Ten Hag, it's alright to question some decisions our manager makes while still being delighted with him, I know it goes against the usual reductionist shite in the Utd forum.
 
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ti vu said:
So what Weghorst offered? A CF who couldn't score. Who doesn't create when deployed as no 10. Average fewest passes and touches per minutes. Why people mostly praise him for his defensive off ball effort. If not for his defensive work, what is the point of him getting the minutes?

Did you miss the part where Weghorst messed the clearance unchallenged from the freekick that went out for corner that led to Shaw handball?

The points are proof of your debating skill. Enjoy you problem. It means feck all of course
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Messed the clearance unchallenged, now the lies. Winning header challenging Brighton player is "unchallenged header".

No points are for calling spade a spade or shit a shit. Happens sometime.

So you didn't get points on caf? Oh wait one more ironic point. Sums up your posts.
 
jem said:
Always enjoy reading Caf presumptions.
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I'm not sure what other way you could spin it, otherwise he'd try something different. He's painfully out of his depth in this league and it's been obvious for months now.
 
UnitedSofa said:
In hindsight

The fans would have been in uproar. Especially on here. “Jobs for the boys” & all that
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I mean he did well in his three games. But even without hindsight Ralf had barely managed in years. Was a bizarre appointment.
 
roonster09 said:
Whoscored rating rates both Martial and Weghorst season at around same, 6.56 for Martial and 6.39 for Weghorst. You agree with that too?
Weghorst also had better season than Garnacho.
Bruno had brilliant game vs Bournemouth when we all know he had a shit game.

Also that Bruno, Trippier, March bad better season than Odegaard.
Dalot as our 4th best player with Wan Bissaka 5th.
Antony had better season than Licha
Lindelof had better season than Varane
Sabitzer better than Varane.

If you agree with all of that then we can take these rating seriously.
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Its based on stats. The same kind of stats people use against DDG all the time and wants him out. People dont know in general how to view them , so they make up their own fantasy
 
Paul778 said:
Sigh. I'm tired of this. RR had the short end of everything. The club didn't back him in January and everyone knew the club hadn't backed him. It's impossible to compare him with other permanent managers.

The fact that ETH, with the influence associated with being a permanent manager, has implemented a large number of the things RR tried to do should be obvious.

Now try doing those things with slabhead, ronnie, Pogba and lingard stinking up the dressing room
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I don't disagree with your take on RR, but to be honest, the club hasn't "backed" any manager in the post-SAF era.

Giving a manager a pile of money and telling them "sign whomever you want" is not backing them. We're supposed to have a department of recruitment and football operations people helping identify targets that fit the philosophy and style of play desired in the team, and close deals in a timely and cost-efficient manner. We haven't done that and it's held back every manager since SAF retired.
 
For a first season, top 4 finish and 1 (or two cups) is an amazing achievement. You couldn't ask any better especially after the last season debacle. But a lot of revamp is needed to turn this team into a successful one. There's too much crap and players whose mentality is just not up for a title winning squad. And for that we need the rats to feck off finally and for the new owners to start investing in the club.
 
DSG said:
In 38 years of management in football and 760 matches, he’s won one major trophy, a German Cup. Even that trophy was sort of contrived, he came in during the semifinals and beat a Bundesliga 2 team to win it. He’s not a good manager, never has been. He has the worst record as a United manager since Frank O’Farrell in 1972.
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It just underscores the chaos we were in last season that we brought in a coach who we knew wasn't a great manager, for the sole purpose of becoming sporting director, and then we decided against that.

Compared to this time last year, attending the Palace game and watching how awful we were, where we are now is fantastic. Last August I would have accepted a season where we just showed some progression. I wasn't expecting to finish fourth.
 
calodo2003 said:
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So annoying that 2 of those 3 draws came against the definition of relegation fodder. Although looking at how things have panned out, those extra 4 points on their own wouldn’t have really changed much.
 
Frosty said:
I think our poor away form has really distracted from how well we have done at home after the first day of the season.
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Yeah, we have 5th best away record but with -11 GD. Our record is terrible, something to really focus next season.
 
Shark said:
I'm not sure what other way you could spin it, otherwise he'd try something different. He's painfully out of his depth in this league and it's been obvious for months now.
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Weghorst may well be out of his depth, but your inferring that ETH continues to play him out of some misguided sense of personal pride is a bit much, in my opinion.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
I don't disagree with your take on RR, but to be honest, the club hasn't "backed" any manager in the post-SAF era.

Giving a manager a pile of money and telling them "sign whomever you want" is not backing them. We're supposed to have a department of recruitment and football operations people helping identify targets that fit the philosophy and style of play desired in the team, and close deals in a timely and cost-efficient manner. We haven't done that and it's held back every manager since SAF retired.
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I see your point that "to back a manager" in the best case scenario it isn't only by providing funds but also by providing infrastructure, expertise and so on. This is certainly true and yes, it applies to all managers since SAF but as it applies to all, maybe it isn't the best idea to widen the opening of the meaning of "backing the manager". RR wasn't allowed to add any player in winter. I even get the whole "interim manager" thing where you don't want to bring in players for a manager who will be gone at a certain point in the future. But this United team lacked a few players. For example bringing in a DM, even one in the 15-20mio region, would have never been a mistake because that skillset wasn't existing at the club at all. We've seen ETH bring in two players on loan this winter - pretty sure something like that would have been possible a year before as well.

No manager has an easy challenge at United. Applies to all from Moyes to ETH. It still triggers me a bit though, reading how bad RR has been and that it was a mistake to bring him in to begin with because he was so bad and did do feck all in his time here. His time was set up to fail at least after the winter with the club clearly not opting for him as permanent manager, too many players on his way out and no transfers. I was very critical of Ole, he should have left earlier but the point in time when he left, I didn't think it was good timing halfway through the season. I hoped RR could implement some bits here and there but it wasn't happening for many reasons. He acted a bit snide in the process, surely didn't depict himself as a sympathic manager so I don't want to exclude him from criticism. I just find it odd how many people appear to lay a big chunk of the failure of last season in front of his door. Some people that in Oles case were hyperventilating when people dared to critisize him when he hadn't had two full transfer windows plus pre-seasons under his belt...
 
Shark said:
I'm not sure what other way you could spin it, otherwise he'd try something different. He's painfully out of his depth in this league and it's been obvious for months now.
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You don't think it's just because WW and Martial are the only two strikers in the squad? Since Martial has been fit he's gotten more minutes than Wout, but it's understandable that ETH would limit his minutes a bit given his injury problems.

With all the recent injuries you're basically arguing for Elanga at striker when Martial can't play.
 
One more point and for me it's a successful first season and a particularly impressive one given the clusterfeck, not really of his own making, that has been our centre forward options.
 
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