Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Dominos]

Ball retention is everything.

If you make 30 avoidable simple errors in possession in a game, that's 30 potential attacks for yourselves wasted, which over the course of the season which have a huge effect on the amount of goals you end up scoring. That's also 30 counter attacks/transitions you've gifted to the opposition, which will have a huge impact on the number of goals you concede. Every time you lose the ball that's a potential for the opposition to go win a corner, free kick near your box, which are opportunities for them to score and opportunities for them to have a spell of pressure. Every time you lose the ball in an away game that brings the crowd into the game which can turn momentum against you.

If the teams above and around you are making less basic errors in retaining possession that will bare out in the points tally over the course of the season.

De Gea's time should be up, but I do think there's an over-focus on De Gea when it comes to how bad we are on the ball like getting rid of him will fix everything. We lose far too many easy balls in attack and midfield when we already have established possession.

 

[dalriada]

The over-focus on DDG is becoming almost an obsession for some commentators and supporters. I get the argument about signing a more modern keeper with better distribution but he's also just won the Golden Glove award (yes, our defenders play a big part, but that will be true of any keeper) and he's still a top keeper at the things he does well. The glaringly obvious priority is a CF and improving our poor passing and control, the weaknesses of some of our wingers .... I could go on. DDG may be approaching the end of his time with us but the Idea that a new keeper is our top priority after the CF and solves our problems is easy but naive.

 

[Crimson King]

Rashford has more goals centrally this season than from out wide.

The idea that Rashford is a poor option up top now is completely baseless.

No, it isn't baseless at all. He's not a poor option up front, but you're also not going to win the league playing him there all season, because he's not a striker. He's far more productive from the left for 90 minutes.

We've spent too long trying to turn Rashford into something he isn't. It needs to stop.

 

[Amar__]

Rashford has more goals centrally this season than from out wide.

The idea that Rashford is a poor option up top now is completely baseless.

It's mostly from the Wout IN crowd, they do everything just so they can prove that playing Wout is better option.

I would actually argue that he's had far more terrible games left wide than he had up front. At least when he is playing centrally he is not trying stupid dribbles through players and stuff like that and tries to involve others into play more.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

It's mostly from the Wout IN crowd, they do everything just so they can prove that playing Wout is better option.

Are you for real?! There is no 'Wout IN crowd'. What is your basis for claiming this? There are rational people who can see the bigger picture who might suggest why he is picked (largely due to a total lack of other options I would say), but there are no people with a pro-Wout agenda as you seem to be suggesting? I suspect even Wout's family would concede that he's probably not cut out for the highest level of football.

 

[JuriM]

Loving the ETH's inner transfer muppet His cheeky answers are everything!

 

[Xaviboy]

I'm hoping he gets in 2 midfielders that can make a difference in to the squad along with CF.

Still think De Gea is number 1 next season.

 

[NLunited]

It's mostly from the Wout IN crowd, they do everything just so they can prove that playing Wout is better option.

I would actually argue that he's had far more terrible games left wide than he had up front. At least when he is playing centrally he is not trying stupid dribbles through players and stuff like that and tries to involve others into play more.

What nonsense, no one is arguing that Wout is more than an emergency loan signing.

 

[Thisistheone]

A very encouraging first season from him. Let’s hope he gets his number 9 in the summer (and maybe a keeper)

 

[The United]

A Haaland-lite and a good goalkeeper this season and he'd have challenged for the title. Hopefully we get that and more in the summer.

Doubt it would have given us 20 more points. A decent striker would have been great but we still need to score as a team a bit more than what we have as well.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

No, it isn't baseless at all. He's not a poor option up front, but you're also not going to win the league playing him there all season, because he's not a striker. He's far more productive from the left for 90 minutes.

We've spent too long trying to turn Rashford into something he isn't. It needs to stop.

Literally never said we should use him exclusively up top.

 

[Pronewbie]

Doubt it would have given us 20 more points. A decent striker would have been great but we still need to score as a team a bit more than what we have as well.

A good striker would give the others more room to play, on top of an additional 15 - 20 goals. Also, a better goalkeeper would help us in the build up and concede fewer howlers.

We can respectfully disagree, but IMO we weren't that far off from sustaining a serious title challenge before our complacent players gave up. Personally think we'd be ahead of Arsenal.

 

[edcunited1878]

Since when was the back only considered the goalkeeper? Isn't the defensive line called the backline?

There was a long-standing affair for de Jong for a reason...he is the type of player that was to build from the back. Connect the back through midfield into the attacking 3rd. We've seen the connections between Eriksen and Bruno.

Having the outlet for the backline and goalkeeper, whether it be Shaw on the left or de Jong-type player in the center, then Antony on the right or preferablly the RB, is optimizing the play from the back during away games when teams are restricting space and any errant pass is going to be punished.

Yes, DDG has to be upgraded on, but so does the backline and midfield - it has to improve - in order to gain more control and assertiveness during away matches.

 

[The United]

A good striker would give the others more room to play, on top of an additional 15 - 20 goals. Also, a better goalkeeper would help us in the build up and concede fewer howlers.

We can respectfully disagree, but IMO we weren't that far off from sustaining a serious title challenge before our complacent players gave up. Personally think we'd be ahead of Arsenal.

Those players (whoever they are) still would not give us 20 more points in the league this season. We just had our purple patch for about two months in the whole season which happens to every team and it did not make us anything special. Remember that the EPL was not as competitive as it was the previous season. Matching City's consistency to achieve above 90 points and be in the title chase was and is going to be still a long way off, as long as they continue to be so consistent.

 

[edcunited1878]

Those players (whoever they are) still would not give us 20 more points in the league this season. We just had our purple patch for about two months in the whole season which happens to every team and it did not make us anything special. Remember that the EPL was not as competitive as it was the previous season. Matching City's consistency to achieve above 90 points and be in the title chase was and is going to be still a long way off, as long as they continue to be so consistent.

City be damned, United have to be able to reach 80+ points as a baseline. As in, yeah, this team should be 80+ points year in year out. It's very much attainable under EtH and with a few more key incomings and development of the team.

If United can reach that consistent level of 80+, then closing the gap to 90 points or there abouts is feasible. With a healthier Martial or just better conversion rate for most players on the current squad, United would have reached that 80 point threshold this past season. But it's all to see how United can improve then make the jump to 80 points, then more and more points to be competing at the top.

 

[Pronewbie]

Those players (whoever they are) still would not give us 20 more points in the league this season. We just had our purple patch for about two months in the whole season which happens to every team and it did not make us anything special. Remember that the EPL was not as competitive as it was the previous season. Matching City's consistency to achieve above 90 points and be in the title chase was and is going to be still a long way off, as long as they continue to be so consistent.

I'd say Arsenal was in a title challenge. No expectation of us matching City.

 

[The United]

City be damned, United have to be able to reach 80+ points as a baseline. As in, yeah, this team should be 80+ points year in year out. It's very much attainable under EtH and with a few more key incomings and development of the team.

If United can reach that consistent level of 80+, then closing the gap to 90 points or there abouts is feasible. With a healthier Martial or just better conversion rate for most players on the current squad, United would have reached that 80 point threshold this past season. But it's all to see how United can improve then make the jump to 80 points, then more and more points to be competing at the top.

Of course. Our immediate aim should be to go over 80 points next season.

But my point was to refute the claim that we would have been in the title race if we had a different goalkeeper and a good striker. We do need to play better as a team as well.

 

[Pronewbie]

Of course. Our immediate aim should be to go over 80 points next season.

But my point was to refute the claim that we would have been in the title race if we had a different goalkeeper and a good striker. We do need to play better as a team as well.

We were only 3 points behind City after 21 matches so yes, we'd have mounted a challenge with just a good goalkeeper and striker. Never said we'd go all the way against City. Not sure where you got that from.

 

[The United]

We were only 3 points behind City after 21 matches so yes, we'd have mounted a challenge with just a good goalkeeper and striker. Never said we'd go all the way against City. Not sure where you got that from.

Seriously? If you define being in the title race as being close to the top team or being the top team at some point, yeah, there would be a lot of teams in that race.

 

[Pronewbie]

Seriously? If you define being in the title race as being close to the top team or being the top team at some point, yeah, there would be a lot of teams in that race.

You seriously don't think Arsenal were in a title race just 2 weeks ago? Then yeah, no other team would be in a title challenge at all.

 

[The United]

You seriously don't think Arsenal were in a title race just 2 weeks ago? Then yeah, no other team would be in a title challenge at all.

We are talking about United here, no?

 

[Pronewbie]

We are talking about United here, no?

I did say that with a good GK and striker I reckon we'd have a similar point tally to Arsenal, no? This is turning circular, so have a nice day. Not every title challenge has to have Martin Tyler screaming Agueerrooooo on the final matchday.

 

[The United]

I did say that with a good GK and striker I reckon we'd have a similar point tally to Arsenal, no? This is turning circular, so have a nice day. Not every title challenge has to have Martin Tyler screaming Agueerrooooo on the final matchday.

A true title challenge for me would be like how Pool and City did it till the end for a couple of seasons recently, not just finishing second. If that is the case, you would have to say that Ole's team was in the title race in that 2020–21 season.

 

[Isotope]

It doesn't explain anything. Then why our home form is good then? Are we using a set of different players for home and away at behind?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

It doesn't explain anything. Then why our home form is good then? Are we using a set of different players for home and away at behind?

At our home, lot of teams tend to sit back more and do less high press. When we go away, those teams are not afraid to do high press which is why we struggled at away more. Some of our players especially the keeper can't play from the back against high press, as a result, our keeper tends to hoof the ball.

 

[Isotope]

At our home, lot of teams tend to sit back more and do less high press. When we go away, those teams are not afraid to do high press which is why we struggled at away more. Some of our players especially the keeper can't play from the back against high press, as a result, our keeper tends to hoof the ball.

If that's the case, more teams would just do high press on us, whether home or away, just like they did in the past two seasons before this. No reason not do it for them when it gives them more chance to win.

Nah, hard to buy it.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

If that's the case, more teams would just do high press on us, whether home or away, just like they did in the past two seasons before this. No reason not do it for them.

Nah, hard to buy it.

At home is different atmosphere to away. Because of that team is more brave to do it when they play in their own home ground. If you watch it, you can see it with your own eyes.

 

[Isotope]

At home is different atmosphere to away. Because of that team is more brave to do it when they play in their own home ground. If you watch it, you can see it with your own eyes.

I saw it with my own eyes, under RR and Ole, smaller teams playing high press and sometimes dominating us in our home games, just because they could and had believe they would get result with that tactic. I do think you also remember those days, man.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I saw it with my own eyes, under RR and Ole, smaller teams playing high press and sometimes dominating us in our home games, just because they could and had believe they would win with that tactic. I do think you also remember those days, man.

I'm not talking about RR and Ole. I'm talking about under ETH. We play different under ETH than compare to under RR and Ole, of course the opposition team's approach against those managers will be different. You just need to see it with your own eyes under ETH.

 

[Isotope]

I'm not talking about RR and Ole. I'm talking about under ETH. We play different under ETH than compare to under RR and Ole, of course the opposition team's approach against those managers will be different. You just need to see it with your own eyes under ETH.

Now we're back in circle. Why would teams come to OT with fear? just because our fans screaming in stadium? It's proven in those years that those smaller teams didn't fear our fans. WHat prevent them to do high press in OT?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Now we're back in circle. Why would teams come to OT with fear? just because our fans screaming in stadium? It's proven in those years that those smaller teams didn't fear our fans. WHat prevent them to do high press in OT?

We aren't going circle, you're just not reading. I don't know whether you play dumb that you can't see the difference between the home atmosphere and away atmosphere or you actually have no clue.

It's about mentality!!

If you play away from home, the home fans will give hostile atmosphere to the opposition players which can affect player's performance. This leads to mistakes means there is higher chance or possibility to make mistakes when playing away than playing home, which is why those teams tend to be less brave to approach the game when they away from home.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

We aren't going circle, you're just not reading. I don't know whether you play dumb that you can't see the difference between the home atmosphere and away atmosphere or you actually have no clue.

It's about mentality!!

If you play away from home, the home fans will give hostile atmosphere to the opposition players which can affect player's performance. This leads to mistakes means there is higher chance or possibility to make mistakes when playing away than playing home, which is why those teams tend to be less brave to approach the game when they away from home.

I kind of agree with both you and @Isotope . We cant ignore the home advantage thing but honestly, the performance being affected by screaming fans is something hard to digest. These are professional footballers to begin with.

I think it has more to do with familiar surroundings for the home team, the pitch staff setting up the conditions. Its important to also notice the pitch dimensions which I believe can be adjusted to some degree by the home team. I might be wrong but i remember reading that somewhere.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I kind of agree with both you and @Isotope . We cant ignore the home advantage thing but honestly, the performance being affected by screaming fans is something hard to digest. These are professional footballers to begin with.

I think it has more to do with familiar surroundings for the home team, the pitch staff setting up the conditions. Its important to also notice the pitch dimensions which I believe can be adjusted to some degree by the home team. I might be wrong but i remember reading that somewhere.

That's also part of it but what lead into this is the mentality. Just because they are professional footballers doesn't mean they are all strong mentally. Sport is actually more mentality than technical attributes. Lot of footballers out there couldn't handle pressure. The pressure isn't just media but also the actual fans on the football stadium. This pressure can lead into players making errors in the game, which lead into this idea where managers think twice to approach the away game.

 

[LordSpud]

The man sums up a decade of incompetence with this quote:

"When there is no strategy, or not the right strategy, the money doesn't work."

Genius.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

That's also part of it but what lead into this is the mentality. Just because they are professional footballers doesn't mean they are all strong mentally. Sport is actually more mentality than technical attributes. Lot of footballers out there couldn't handle pressure. The pressure isn't just media but also the actual fans on the football stadium. This pressure can lead into players making errors in the game, which lead into this idea where managers think twice to approach the away game.

It's mad that you're even having to explain this tbh!

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

It's mad that you're even having to explain this tbh!

 

[Isotope]

We aren't going circle, you're just not reading. I don't know whether you play dumb that you can't see the difference between the home atmosphere and away atmosphere or you actually have no clue.

It's about mentality!!

If you play away from home, the home fans will give hostile atmosphere to the opposition players which can affect player's performance. This leads to mistakes means there is higher chance or possibility to make mistakes when playing away than playing home, which is why those teams tend to be less brave to approach the game when they away from home.

Once again, despite your petty insults, you're ignoring facts that in years under Ole and RR, smaller teams could come to OT and did high press and some just dominated the game, despite all these "home game advantage". So what gave them that mentality?

Because we were worser team in those years than now, most likely. Now we are better and can dominate opponents. So it's back to question of why we can't replicate home form of playing from behind in away form with same set of players.

Would City forgot how to play from the back if they're in away games?

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

Once again, despite your petty insults, you're ignoring facts that in years under Ole and RR, smaller teams could come to OT and did high press and some just dominated the game, despite all these "home game advantage". So what gave them that mentality?

Because we were worser team in those years than now, most likely. Now we are better and can dominate opponents. So it's back to question of why we can't replicate home form of playing from behind in away form with same set of players.

I don't think it's any coincidence that our run of fantastic away form under Ole came when we were playing in empty stadiums due to Covid. So much of the advantage of playing at home is due to the pressure that a home crowd can put on opposition players, management, and the referee, plus the extra motivation they can bring to their own team. Sure most of it is mental, and some of it is subconscious, but there is no doubt whatsoever that most sides will approach games differently away from home.

 

[Isotope]

I don't think it's any coincidence that our run of fantastic away form under Ole came when we were playing in empty stadiums due to Covid. So much of the advantage of playing at home is due to the pressure that a home crowd can put on opposition players, management, and the referee, plus the extra motivation they can bring to their own team. Sure most of it is mental, and some of it is subconscious, but there is no doubt whatsoever that most sides will approach games differently away from home.

That's reasonable, with home advantage. If you follow our conservations, I was more interested in that EtH's comment about the reasons of our away form, it's because we can't control the game and it's start from behind. So why we can't control the game? UA argued that because we're high pressed in away games. Yes it's understandable.

Our difference is on why away team comes to OT and press lesser, or stop doing high press especially this season. I argued that away teams had came to OT in the past under Ole and RR (both even seasons with fans in stadium) and kept high pressure. Just because they thought they had chance to get result by doing that. Didn't those teams also get the fans pressure?

Most probably because our team play much better football right now, that away teams just didn't have believe of getting result by pressing high. If they believe they could get result by pressing high, they would do it regardless of home or away. Or perhaps they've done it but our play is still too good at home games. So why couldn't we replicate that control in our away games? Is it because the away teams mentality, or just our team mentality, or tactic, or like @ayushreddevil9 about familiarity with environment (pitch size, etc) or combinations of all?

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

That's reasonable, with home advantage. If you follow our conservations, I was more interested in that EtH's comment about the reasons of our away form, it's because we can't control the game and it's start from behind. So why we can't control the game? UA argued that because we're high pressed in away games. Yes it's understandable.

Our difference is on why away team comes to OT and press lesser, or stop doing high press especially this season. I argued that away teams had came to OT in the past under Ole and RR (both even seasons with fans in stadium) and kept high pressure. Just because they thought they had chance to get result by doing that. Didn't those teams also get the fans pressure?

Most probably because our team play much better football right now, that away teams just didn't have believe of getting result by pressing high. If they believe they could get result by pressing high, they would do it regardless of home or away. Or perhaps they've done it but our play is still too good at home games. So why couldn't we replicate that control in our away games? Is it because the away teams mentality, or just our team mentality, or tactic, or like @ayushreddevil9 about familiarity with environment (pitch size, etc) or combinations of all?

Do you not think it's largely cos we press less away from home and are more likely to try play on the counter attack? That's fine until you lose control of the game through silly errors and getting caught on the ball - and maybe lackign the mentality to deal with the xtra pressure. At home we play more on the front foot, and it is the away team (especially the ones who aren't strictly coached into a way of playing) that is under pressure and liable to panic?