Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Cheimoon]

I cant ever see this working for so many reasons. We would need a new goalkeeper, an attacking RB, a striker and a DM that can drop into CB. Kane/Oshimen, Frimpong, Rice and Maignan/Costa. Even if we magically did that then it wont work because where are the back ups? We dont have suitable cover in any of those positions. Add to that there is no way Rashford and Antony work in this system. They are the wrong style of player. Sancho and Amad are the closest we have. You could even question if Casemiro and Bruno are lacking for this system in a sense they arent exactly passing/technical wizards and can they hold the midfield on their own when needed

That has to be the long-term goal though, build towards the ideal squad for the perfect style (or at least a suitable squad for a strong style ). Obviously that style can't be implemented right away, and Ten Hag has shown he realizes that by improvising all over the place this season. But the goal must remain the same, otherwise you can never have a coherent transfer strategy and tactical gaps will persist.

Yes, that's a multi-year project, but that coherent long-term vision is exactly why De Zerbi can come to Brighton and immediately do well: all the pieces were already in place, including Potter previously himself now. City did something similar, basically prepping for Guardiola already well before his arrival (although that didn't stop them from overhauling the squad anyway). Something like that should be every club's goal - although obviously results are required in the meantime as well, it's not an excuse for years of mediocrity.

 

[Cheimoon]

From what I saw at Ajax during Erik ten Hag's tenure, when he had the double pivot of Frenkie de Jong and Lasse Schone at the base of the midfield. He didn't invert the fullbacks as much but instead had the wide forwards inverting in-field with the fullbacks providing width and hence the fullbacks were bombing forward like wingers. And it was easy to see why he would do that due to Schone and de Jong providing deep lying play-making qualities along with positional discipline in deeper roles in midfield.

Out go Schone and de Jong and the team dynamic changes with Daley Blind and Mazraoui now occupying the fullback positions as inverted fullbacks with the wide forwards holding width. Tagliafico is hence relegated to the bench due to Blind being superior on the ball in possession and hence his play-making qualities are better suited to the team as a inverted fullback or as a 3rd CB in possession. Losing de Jong meant Tagliafico lost his place in the team and exerting on the ball control meant that the fullbacks would now have to play their part in midfield aswell due to the quality that was lost when de Jong and Schone departed. So Erik ten Hag tweaked the system without compromising on his principles by maintaining on the ball dominance with the fullbacks getting involved centrally in midfield or as the ball playing CB in a 3, which Blind was very good at. And the midfield of Alvarez and Gravenberch wasn't comparable qualitatively to de Jong and Schone but the quality of the fullbacks on the ball made up the short fall where ten Hag would again develop the team to be competitive and attractive to watch.

So if the news about ten Hag wanting Frimpong turns out to be correct. Then I foresee the fullbacks providing width and the wide forwards inverting in-field. Because from the little I've seen of Frimpong, he's got electric pace and good close control to be a real threat as a winger with Antony and Rashford inverting in-field and Bruno as the attacking midfielder ahead of a midfield double pivot. Luke Shaw has potential to both invert into midfield or be part of a three man defence in possession in a 3-2-5 in possession.

I think the plan is to develop the team to be proactive with and without the ball. And having players who are comfortable in possession will allow for positional rotation and a more fluid play-style developing with the defensive and midfield lines being in close proximity to the forwards, which will create compactness and hence the pressing and counter pressing will also be more effective. Bruno Fernandes will then have the platform to take risks in the final third and will be expected to create plays that will lead to goals. And the same applies to even Frimpong (if we sign him) who will be expected to deliver going forward with players in rest defense facilitating for him by defending in 1v1 situations.

I think something similar to the below is what I'm thinking with a 424 shape in build up. So the GK and fullbacks need to be very good on the ball and the likes of Martinez, Shaw and Todibo have the technical ability to step into midfield and create both numerical and qualitative superiorities due to their technical level on the ball. And Todibo is strong at defending the channel in 1v1 situations, so he can potentially facilitate the attack minded approach of Frimpong on the right with help from Casemiro and Antony who is also very good at tracking runners.


There's different ways he can set up and having Shaw either bombing forward, holding width, or having him inverting infield or having him playing in a back 3 in possession is what is required of players within the positional play principles. You obviously need players with a high level of touch and technique along with the right attitude and personality. But you also need intelligent players who understand the principles of play.


-----------------ST------------
--LB----LW--------RW-----RB---
-------------CM-----AM-------------
------CB------CM------CB---------

I think this post possibly answers your question aswell @Isotope

Yes, lots of different ways to get to similar results - grear overview! And Ten Hag might actually make further tweaks based on the more profound exposure to the EPL he has had now, and changes that people like Guardiola and De Zerbi are introducing this season. As I said, I think his exact intentions will be clearest once the summer transfer window has closed - provided sufficient budget and the right players are available obviously.

 

[NLunited]

Each of these managers have stubborn ego, but not the results to back it up.

Ole couldn't see beyond Maguire and McFred. Ten Hag is equally stubborn when it comes to Sancho, Weggy and Martial, and not playing Pellestri.

Be stubborn all you like after you've won a league or two.

Ten Hag is not stubborn, he is managing the squad he has. Don’t act like there are all these amazing options. There aren‘t.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

Each of these managers have stubborn ego, but not the results to back it up.

Ole couldn't see beyond Maguire and McFred. Ten Hag is equally stubborn when it comes to Sancho, Weggy and Martial, and not playing Pellestri.

Be stubborn all you like after you've won a league or two.

Stubborn when it comes to Martial? In what sense?

 

[roonster09]

Each of these managers have stubborn ego, but not the results to back it up.

Ole couldn't see beyond Maguire and McFred. Ten Hag is equally stubborn when it comes to Sancho, Weggy and Martial, and not playing Pellestri.

Be stubborn all you like after you've won a league or two.

Sancho and Martial barely played, also Weggy was benched the moment Martial is available.

Not playing Pellestri doesn't make a manager stubborn. Also playing Martial doesn't make him stubborn either, he is our best CF available.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Ten Hag is not stubborn,

you must not know him at all

 

[b82REZ]

Why is Pellistri being held up as an example of ten Hag getting it wrong?

He's shown nothing, he's easily pushed off the ball and his end product is inconsistent, at best.

I get people struggle with Antony, but he does exactly what ten Hag wants from him. Yes he can improve but he's orders of magnitude better than Pellistri and probably always will be. Pellistri will likely end up as some mid table club in Spain.

 

[NZT-One]

Ah yes the deepest squad in world football, and I'm not talking about games played (reading comprehension?) but an unprecedented number of consecutive weeks with midweek fixtures. Where you'll go next is probably Liverpool last year, but those fixtures were spread across a larger time period as there was no World Cup, and no postponed fixtures as a result of the passing away of a royal family member.

The reading comprehension thingy wasn't directed to you but a different poster. And sure, City for sure has a deeper squad and Pool had its games better spread out. No denying. But finding reasons for things isn't hard, if you go out, I am sure you will find a couple of good reasons of the Liverpool misere this year. Or the one of Chelsea. Such factors are always there and they will always hurt this or that team. Especially those teams who go deep into competitions. It certainly is something, that made ETHs challenge even bigger than it would have been but, and I only speak for myself here, don't think it should be used as some sort of bonus point. If you see this differently, thats totally fine.

 

[UpWithRivers]

That has to be the long-term goal though, build towards the ideal squad for the perfect style (or at least a suitable squad for a strong style ). Obviously that style can't be implemented right away, and Ten Hag has shown he realizes that by improvising all over the place this season. But the goal must remain the same, otherwise you can never have a coherent transfer strategy and tactical gaps will persist.

Yes, that's a multi-year project, but that coherent long-term vision is exactly why De Zerbi can come to Brighton and immediately do well: all the pieces were already in place, including Potter previously himself now. City did something similar, basically prepping for Guardiola already well before his arrival (although that didn't stop them from overhauling the squad anyway). Something like that should be every club's goal - although obviously results are required in the meantime as well, it's not an excuse for years of mediocrity.

Well if we are building a set style over 3/4 years then we cant half arse it. That means we should sell Rashford, Bruno and De Gea asap because they dont fit the 3 year project and we should get as much cash as possible for them now. We should also target the oldies Casemiro, Varane etc because in 3/4 years he wont be any use. And we should definitely not be buying the likes of Kane. We also as fans need to accept 6th place and no cups might be likely and also accept the United way of sticking by youth players might not be the best solution if they dont fit the style of play. Like what happens with Garnacho? Do we just shove him into this style of play even if it doesnt really work for him or do we sell? The reason why City and Brighton can shift easily and Liverpool, United and even Arsenal to a lesser degree, have taken years to adapt to new ways of playing and new structures etc is because we have a tradition and an ethos that is written in stone. Its hard to shift. Just ask United fans if they would sell Rashford to implement a new style of play and see how far you get.

 

[nickm]

Just ask United fans if they would sell Rashford to implement a new style of play and see how far you get.

I would sell Rashford at the right time for this, for sure. I don't think the right time is likely next season, but as part of a step by step process, putting in place the foundations over time, then why wouldn't you buy the ideal forward line at the right time and sell the appropriate players to enable it? I think we have more immediate priorities though (and who says Rashford can't evolve, he's still 2-3 years off his peak).

I am pretty sure Ten Hag wants to be our Cruyff, and embed the Dutch school in our club. I hope he pulls it off, it's what we need post Fergie.

 

[NZT-One]

Imagine a United fan feeling triggered by reading other fans praising the club's new manager in a season where we have already won a trophy and are in the final of another? I mean kudos to you for admitting it because it certainly explains why you feel the need to respond to any bit of praise with detailed reasons why that poster is wrong and do your best to smother any bit of positivity like piss on a bonfire.

I am not triggered by praise, I am triggered, when people who don't join in the praise are called names and they are assumed to have some evil intentions. It has been a bit like that 3 years ago. People got ridiculed, told to follow different teams, all that. All I do is trying to bring a little perspective into things. I don't accomplish that all the time and if you consider such a stance as extremist, I am worried but it is what it is. Lets leave it at that - all I can do is invite you to not be too judgemental about posters and their motivations as soon as you read something that doesn't align with your own position. I'll (continue to) do the same.

Going back to the original point of fatigue, doesn't this then basically affirm that? It's not a 'great argument' but a pretty solid one if the only comparable examples are a doped up Man City and a historically great team in a two horse league that pretty much had nothing to play for other than the cups a few months ago. ETH absolutely could have played everything perfectly and rotated more but for his first season, he's done bloody well and he's a victim of his own 'success' in an unprecedented season of games, postponements and a winter world cup.

De Zebri has been massively and rightly lauded for the job he's done in his first season with Brighton but even he has struggled with mid week games where he's literally said the game against us in the FA cup semi final took it toll on their players. They subsequently lost against Forest and then got beat by Everton at home 1-5 after their league game against us. Yet they have only play 42 games.

It's not binary. Fatigue is absolutely a factor and ETH's lack of rotation is one also but you'd give him benefit of the doubt on that because there simply isn't an example of a manager coming into a new club with the same set or similar issues and delivering on every single standard. The fact you had to 'but no that doesn't apply to Utd' or ETH is a harsh and clinical take; it's very easy to see why people take issue with your opinions.

You're right, I can understand that too. Sometimes, in discussions points get too much emphasized and you get caught in your own stance. Of course the schedule has been crazy and of course a schedule like this will take its toll from any team. To me it just doesn't feel right to award a "Fantastic Job" batch for that. Had he done that by incorporating Mainoo or Iqbal or whatever youngling, it would be a slightly different matter but I felt, he more or less picked the best team available (bar maybe 5 or so games), heck I think, Eriksen and Bruno even played in that one cup dead rubber 2nd leg... You know what I mean? And the season isn't over, a few days ago you could have argued that we would be limping over the finish line to end the season.

I happily give the "Fantastic Job" batch to the physios though, the amount of injuries we had is pretty damn good considering the schedule. Kudos to Bruno as well, whose fitness levels are staggering. Maybe thats a common ground for everyone.

 

[Cheimoon]

Well if we are building a set style over 3/4 years then we cant half arse it. That means we should sell Rashford, Bruno and De Gea asap because they dont fit the 3 year project and we should get as much cash as possible for them now. We should also target the oldies Casemiro, Varane etc because in 3/4 years he wont be any use. And we should definitely not be buying the likes of Kane. We also as fans need to accept 6th place and no cups might be likely and also accept the United way of sticking by youth players might not be the best solution if they dont fit the style of play. Like what happens with Garnacho? Do we just shove him into this style of play even if it doesnt really work for him or do we sell? The reason why City and Brighton can shift easily and Liverpool, United and even Arsenal to a lesser degree, have taken years to adapt to new ways of playing and new structures etc is because we have a tradition and an ethos that is written in stone. Its hard to shift. Just ask United fans if they would sell Rashford to implement a new style of play and see how far you get.

I don't understand how you come to all these conclusions. I said squad building is a gradual process; why would all these players have to be shifted ASAP? And why would all of them not fit Ten Hag's style? He has clear principles of play, but has changed his specific team set-up significantly over the years to accommodate the players at this disposal. Specifically, I have no idea why you think Rashford, Bruno, and Garnacho would have to be shifted; and obviously Varane and Casemiro, while not being long-term solutions, are clear starters this year. Finally, why are you talking about 6th places without cups? This has clearly been a sub-standard season and United are on track to finish 4th with at least one cup.

As I said, I just don't understand how you get from my post to yours here.

 

[hobbers]

Just ask United fans if they would sell Rashford to implement a new style of play and see how far you get.

I would happily sell anyone in the squad if it meant finally breaking free of our Moments FC style of football.

 

[NZT-One]

Well if we are building a set style over 3/4 years then we cant half arse it. That means we should sell Rashford, Bruno and De Gea asap because they dont fit the 3 year project and we should get as much cash as possible for them now. We should also target the oldies Casemiro, Varane etc because in 3/4 years he wont be any use. And we should definitely not be buying the likes of Kane. We also as fans need to accept 6th place and no cups might be likely and also accept the United way of sticking by youth players might not be the best solution if they dont fit the style of play. Like what happens with Garnacho? Do we just shove him into this style of play even if it doesnt really work for him or do we sell? The reason why City and Brighton can shift easily and Liverpool, United and even Arsenal to a lesser degree, have taken years to adapt to new ways of playing and new structures etc is because we have a tradition and an ethos that is written in stone. Its hard to shift. Just ask United fans if they would sell Rashford to implement a new style of play and see how far you get.

Don't agree on all decisions but to me that seems to be the right mindset. Those harsh decisions have to be made and as you said, also the fans probably have to have the right mindset and be ready to take a few potentially painful steps on the way. I think you are a bit too absolute in a couple of areas - for example Rashford is still relatively young, there is a chance for sure that he is able to adapt and add new skills to his repertoire. Same applies obviously to Garnacho as well. And even Bruno showed a few glimpses of things I hadn't expected from him.
I agree though on your stance regarding Kane ^^ and to a degree also to Casemiro and Varane. Both players certainly have their value but in the grand scheme of things, I feel they aren't clear steps towards a certain goal but more of a sidestep. Not every way has to be straight though so as long as those side steps aren't so costly that they make other steps impossible, things are still fine.

Certainly big summer(s) ahead.

 

[Witchking]

What a season to forget after the mighty carling cup win. He said that time and there's more on offer with the Europa and the FA Cup. We looked very comfortable and then bottled the Europa and scraped through to the FA Cup to play city. We know how it will end. Expected a no stress finish to the top 4 and give away a 2 goal lead, lose to Newcastle, lose to Brighton, lose to West Ham and i am biting my nails thinking of what stupid way we will drop points and let Liverpool in. Was so confident in the team to get the job done post September, then March drubbing happened, stupid losses, unable to score goals. Just need to somehow get to the finish line in 4th and steal a win against City.

Would say that i am disappointed with his management since feb but trust him to get the players he wants and play some defining football next season. But again that hinges on how the sale goes and if we finish in the top 4 which is looking unlikely as Liverpool are in the front seat, a team who apparently has had a very bad season and might scrape to the top 4 over United who apparently is having a good season.

 

[Cheimoon]

I agree though on your stance regarding Kane ^^ and to a degree also to Casemiro and Varane. Both players certainly have their value but in the grand scheme of things, I feel they aren't clear steps towards a certain goal but more of a sidestep. Not every way has to be straight though so as long as those side steps aren't so costly that they make other steps impossible, things are still fine.

Certainly big summer(s) ahead.

Yeah, totally agree. No matter the size/depth of the overhaul, United need to win things in the meantime, or at least be competitive (and certainly play in the CL). In some cases, that might mean getting a placeholder player that doesn't meet the long-term goals, but fixes an urgent gap now at the quality level required.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah, totally agree. No matter the size/depth of the overhaul, United need to win things in the meantime, or at least be competitive (and certainly play in the CL). In some cases, that might mean getting a placeholder player that doesn't meet the long-term goals, but fixes a urgent gap now at the quality level required.

That's how the most consistent teams operate, no offence but people have a Football Manager view of things where you sign a bunch of young players who invariably develop to their full potential and jettison or ignore any +28 years old player. Top teams are consistent because they maintain a high floor, that high floor also allows your young players to have point of references.

 

[NLunited]

How we will play next year depends heavily on the transfer window. Ten Hag puts winning first ahead of development of style and will do so again next season. If we get the players he needs, he can work towards a more dominant playstyle.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

That's how the most consistent teams operate, no offence but people have a Football Manager view of things where you sign a bunch of young players who invariably develop to their full potential and jettison or ignore any +28 years old player. Top teams are consistent because they maintain a high floor, that high floor also allows your young players to have point of references.

think some, including myself, see team like arsenal where they have built a good base from a young side and can now work on tweaking/fine tuning that as the squad grows. Instead here we have a lot of older players being counted on that we wont be building off of for very long before needing to replace those players as well. Then hear more big options being targeted that also fit the older player model. I just want to see EtH start to do more with younger players vs continually relying on the players who are at the very tail end of prime.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

I am not triggered by praise, I am triggered, when people who don't join in the praise are called names and they are assumed to have some evil intentions.

a) you literally wrote that you get triggered when you "read stuff that I (you) consider as OTT praise", and
b) I have not seen anybody called a name for not joining in with praise (although I got called a cnut by someone who was ranting about Ten Hag's '6 months of poor form')

It has been a bit like that 3 years ago. People got ridiculed, told to follow different teams, all that.

There is a stark difference though - 3 years ago we had a manager who had been appointed in haste off the back of a run of 10 or 12 good results. His previous experience of Premier League management led to relegation, and then sacking the following season when the descent continued. He had never shown anything in his managerial career that gave the impression that he was (or could be) an elite manager with a clear modern style of play. When he had been at the club for a full year he had just taken us through our worst run of form for 40 or 50 years. Therefore, when people were being critical at that point it was totally justified, and the people that were sticking up for him to the extent that they were ridiculing other posters, or telling them to follow other teams, were doing so either out of blind hope based on him being an ex-player, or other reasons such as nationality.

To be overly critical of Ten Hag at his 12 month stage given what he has achieved so far and the context in which it has been achieved is completely different. And note that I am saying 'overly critical'. To complain about the odd team selection or poor performance throughout the season is absolutely justified, to point out that our away form needs to improve is absolutely justified, but some of the stuff I have read in this thread over the last couple of months goes waaaay beyond that.

All I do is trying to bring a little perspective into things. I don't accomplish that all the time and if you consider such a stance as extremist, I am worried but it is what it is. Lets leave it at that - all I can do is invite you to not be too judgemental about posters and their motivations as soon as you read something that doesn't align with your own position. I'll (continue to) do the same.

Well one man's 'a little perspective' is another man's 'consistent bonfire pissing' - when you are persistently writing detailed rebuttals of other people's positive points (and throughout his whole 12 months here, not just the last few weeks) it feels like more of a weird obsession. As you've said 'OTT praise' triggers you - but the fact is that should we qualify for the CL and win the FA Cup (and they are both ifs at the moment, but both are completely achievable) it will have been our most successful season for a decade, directly after our worst season for about 25 years, so there is bound to be a bit of OTT praise flying about - it seems an odd thing for a United fan to find annoying.

In terms of being judgemental, I would always try and avoid jumping to conclusions about a poster based on a post or two - but after a while you start to see the same names popping up again and again with criticism - at that point if the criticism runs counter to what I am seeing with my own eyes then it's entirely reasonable to formulate an opinion (or at the very least a hypothesis) about what is driving it. Often times with ETH the most unreasonable criticism has come from posters who were hugely supportive of Ole, and in that scenario it is reasonable to call out the double-standards. I don't particularly remember you being a staunch Ole fan and I haven't checked your posting history. My best guess, given your location, is that you are Ralf Rangnick's secret lover, still smarting from his cancelled contract

But yeah, I think we've both said our piece and no hard feelings.

 

[Cheimoon]

think some, including myself, see team like arsenal where they have built a good base from a young side and can now work on tweaking/fine tuning that as the squad grows. Instead here we have a lot of older players being counted on that we wont be building off of for very long before needing to replace those players as well. Then hear more big options being targeted that also fit the older player model. I just want to see EtH start to do more with younger players vs continually relying on the players who are at the very tail end of prime.

I wouldn't put too much stock in all of the rumours though. If you look at the transfer forum, United have been linked to literally dozens upon dozens of players. Those can't all be true; there must be a ton of inventions spread by clubs and agents to create attention for a player, and an equal amount of cases where United's attention to a player (and I suppose United scouts follow a great many players fairly closely) is presented as concrete interest. I'd be quite curious to see which set of players United really are considering to pursue (or pursuing already) - but that never seems to come out.

 

[roonster09]

Yeah, totally agree. No matter the size/depth of the overhaul, United need to win things in the meantime, or at least be competitive (and certainly play in the CL). In some cases, that might mean getting a placeholder player that doesn't meet the long-term goals, but fixes a urgent gap now at the quality level required.

Long-term goals part is always an interesting topic. I see all the time people coming up with "we shouldn't sign or rely on old players, we have to think long term", like there is some sort of template that suits every club.

Even ManCity relied on lot of old-ish players when Pep became their manager. Players like Otamendi, Kompany, Walker, Fernandinhoy, Aguero were all core players for couple of seasons and then they also signed young players who integrated to the team. They didn't rely on very young players, City and Liverpool followed sort of similar template where they had old-ish players but also signed players in the 24-27 range who were consistent and brought the team level up.

Also you see "player x should be sold for us to implement some possession playing style", if anyone said Walker would suit Pep style football when Pep had players like Alves, Lahm at his previous clubs then they are just lying. You have KdB who averages pass completion at high 70s and then you have Pep midfielders like Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Thiago, Kroos who all had pass completion at 90+%.

IMO long term goals should be product of short term results. You can't have ignore any of that. Also players are not robots, they adapt well except some players with extremely opposite skillset.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

I wouldn't put too much stock in all of the rumours though. If you look at the transfer forum, United have been linked to literally dozens upon dozens of players. Those can't all be true; there must be a ton of inventions spread by clubs and agents to create attention for a player, and an equal amount of cases where United's attention to a player (and I suppose United scouts follow a great many players fairly closely) is presented as concrete interest. I'd be quite curious to see which set of players United really are considering to pursue (or pursuing already) - but that never seems to come out.

yeah if anything im more worried about us not signing players than us signing too many old players. I just have about 5 percent hope we have an effective transfer window with the whole ownership shit dragging on. Only thing i take solace in is we could have about 10 outgoings to help free up the wage bill from worthless players out of contract alone. So at least dont have to rely on huge amount of sales or anything.

 

[JPRouve]

think some, including myself, see team like arsenal where they have built a good base from a young side and can now work on tweaking/fine tuning that as the squad grows. Instead here we have a lot of older players being counted on that we wont be building off of for very long before needing to replace those players as well. Then hear more big options being targeted that also fit the older player model. I just want to see EtH start to do more with younger players vs continually relying on the players who are at the very tail end of prime.

But are you looking at Arsenal properly? What you are describing isn't what they did, you are rewriting their process from the conclusion. Arsenal have continuously brought a mix of players, some young, some in their prime and other older. They didn't built a young team from the start, they brought players of all ages and when the younger players took their chance, which wasn't immediate, they pushed the older players aside.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

But are you looking at Arsenal properly? What you are describing isn't what they did, you are rewriting their process from the conclusion. Arsenal have continuously brought a mix of players, some young, some in their prime and other older. They didn't built a young team from the start, they brought players of all ages and when the younger players took their chance, which wasn't immediate, they pushed the older players aside.

one problem is we have had this squad forever it seems and havent pushed anyone out. Players like fred/mctominay are still around and reaching testimonial status ha. Honestly im all in on EtH just want to see things change at the club. Theres def no one right way to build a title team or anyone could do it easy. All i know is currently we have about 2-3 players id consider a "top talent" who i think will still be in their prime in a couple of years.

 

[Cheimoon]

Long-term goals part is always an interesting topic. I see all the time people coming up with "we shouldn't sign or rely on old players, we have to think long term", like there is some sort of template that suits every club.

Even ManCity relied on lot of old-ish players when Pep became their manager. Players like Otamendi, Kompany, Walker, Fernandinhoy, Aguero were all core players for couple of seasons and then they also signed young players who integrated to the team. They didn't rely on very young players, City and Liverpool followed sort of similar template where they had old-ish players but also signed players in the 24-27 range who were consistent and brought the team level up.

Also you see "player x should be sold for us to implement some possession playing style", if anyone said Walker would suit Pep style football when Pep had players like Alves, Lahm at his previous clubs then they are just lying. You have KdB who averages pass completion at high 70s and then you have Pep midfielders like Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Thiago, Kroos who all had pass completion at 90+%.

IMO long term goals should be product of short term results. You can't have ignore any of that. Also players are not robots, they adapt well except some players with extremely opposite skillset.

Yeah, totally! Well, I'm not sure long-term goals should be a product of short-term results, cause you do need some kind of fixed overarching vision (even if it should constantly evolve based on new insights); but the current situation and need to get short-term results should definitely feature heavily into long-term planning. And yeah, a good manager can recognize quality and is flexible enough to find a way to work with it!

 

[JPRouve]

one problem is we have had this squad forever it seems and havent pushed anyone out. Players like fred/mctominay are still around and reaching testimonial status ha. Honestly im all in on EtH just want to see things change at the club. Theres def no one right way to build a title team or anyone could do it easy. All i know is currently we have about 2-3 players id consider a "top talent" who i think will still be in their prime in a couple of years.

We haven't. Our current starting eleven is mainly made of players that are have been at the club for less than 24 months. Out of the long tenured starter we have our best scorer in Rashford, a great fullback in Shaw, a very good attackin midfielder in Bruno and then the two "oldies" that need to be challenged or replaced Wan Bissaka and De Gea.

So even that argument is based on reality.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

We haven't. Our current starting eleven is mainly made of players that are have been at the club for less than 24 months. Out of the long tenured starter we have our best scorer in Rashford, a great fullback in Shaw, a very good attackin midfielder in Bruno and then the two "oldies" that need to be challenged or replaced Wan Bissaka and De Gea.

So even that argument is based on reality.

maybe im getting that vibe from the possible depature list that includes about 10 players leaving easily on contracts that are just now finally getting gone. Then add in mcfred who have been around forever and yet people still want them back.

Guess my biggest issue is looking forward about 2-3 seasons, who on our current squad would be on a title challenging team? Not a whole lot for sure in my opinion. Yet weve spent so much damn money the last couple of windows.

 

[JPRouve]

maybe im getting that vibe from the possible depature list that includes about 10 players leaving easily on contracts that are just now finally getting gone. Then add in mcfred who have been around forever and yet people still want them back.

Guess my biggest issue is looking forward about 2-3 seasons, who on our current squad would be on a title challenging team? Not a whole lot for sure in my opinion. Yet weve spent so much damn money the last couple of windows.

The likes of Garnacho, Shaw, Martinez, Antony, Rashford, Sancho, Bruno could easily be on a title challenging team. But the most important thing is that you are looking too much forward 2 or 3 years is a long time in Football, in order to be a challenging team in 2 or 3 years we need to be good now, we need to improve every summer and you do that with a mix of players that fit your need, you don't do that exclusively with potential.

The question that people need to ask themselves when they focus too much on age, unless the player is at the required level today what makes you believe that he will reach that level in 2 or 3 years? That's why you need to think about today and tomorrow, you need players that are good today because with the right players you could challenge today and you also need to think about tomorrow. Both timelines should work in conjunction.

In the case of Kane from an age and level he would near perfect for us, he is ready made and we could plan with him for the next 3-4 years as a starter and bring a younger backup/replacement within that timeframe. Now the reason I have argued that I would prefer a younger and cheaper player is simply because without a striker this season we have managed to settled in the top 4-5, a good but not great player should see us be even better and spending less for that position this summer could maybe allow us to improve several other positions instead of focusing on the striker. But that's riskier than bringing someone as good as Kane.

 

[b82REZ]

think some, including myself, see team like arsenal where they have built a good base from a young side and can now work on tweaking/fine tuning that as the squad grows. Instead here we have a lot of older players being counted on that we wont be building off of for very long before needing to replace those players as well. Then hear more big options being targeted that also fit the older player model. I just want to see EtH start to do more with younger players vs continually relying on the players who are at the very tail end of prime.

But look at what happened to Arsenal when the pressure started to build; they wilted because they had no experienced heads around them.

Listen to Neville and what he says about his first PL. The cool, senior heads dragged those faltering younger players through the final stages.

Real football isn't FM where can buy a crop of talented youngsters and win everything. As with everything balance is required and IMO ETH has nailed that balance. Our spine contains our oldest, most experienced players. Remove Casemiro, Varane or Bruno and look how disjointed we look. That can be attributed in part to their understudies being below standard, but it's also their knowhow on closing out games.

Look at cup final. We came into it after playing a high intensity game against Barca and we controlled the whole match. That was due to the huge influence of that spine and their game management as well as their management of the occasion. Something Newcastle lacked on the day.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

But look at what happened to Arsenal when the pressure started to build; they wilted because they had no experienced heads around them.

Listen to Neville and what he says about his first PL. The cool, senior heads dragged those faltering younger players through the final stages.

Real football isn't FM where can buy a crop of talented youngsters and win everything. As with everything balance is required and IMO ETH has nailed that balance. Our spine contains our oldest, most experienced players. Remove Casemiro, Varane or Bruno and look how disjointed we look. That can be attributed in part to their understudies being below standard, but it's also their knowhow on closing out games.

Look at cup final. We came into it after playing a high intensity game against Barca and we controlled the whole match. That was due to the huge influence of that spine and their game management as well as their management of the occasion. Something Newcastle lacked on the day.

i think arsenal wilted due to some key injuries, didnt saliba or someone in their defense get injured and the run pretty much went to shit. And tbh i dont really care about what neville says, dude living in the past still ha. This isnt the same old premier league from SAF times. Going forward think arsenal are in a much better spot than us right now for sure.

 

[roonster09]

you must not know him at all

Or you don't. EtH is stubborn just like any other professional manager, that's why they are at that level. Also not too stubborn to not change. If anything EtH has showed he is very flexible with tactical set up and team selection.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

The likes of Garnacho, Shaw, Martinez, Antony, Rashford, Sancho, Bruno could easily be on a title challenging team. But the most important thing is that you are looking too much forward 2 or 3 years is a long time in Football, in order to be a challenging team in 2 or 3 years we need to be good now, we need to improve every summer and you do that with a mix of players that fit your need, you don't do that exclusively with potential.

The question that people need to ask themselves when they focus too much on age, unless the player is at the required level today what makes you believe that he will reach that level in 2 or 3 years? That's why you need to think about today and tomorrow, you need players that are good today because with the right players you could challenge today and you also need to think about tomorrow. Both timelines should work in conjunction.

In the case of Kane from an age and level he would near perfect for us, he is ready made and we could plan with him for the next 3-4 years as a starter and bring a younger backup/replacement within that timeframe. Now the reason I have argued that I would prefer a younger and cheaper player is simply because without a striker this season we have managed to settled in the top 4-5, a good but not great player should see us be even better and spending less for that position this summer could maybe allow us to improve several other positions instead of focusing on the striker. But that's riskier than bringing someone as good as Kane.

agree for sure on martinez, garnacho i hope. Def disagree on sancho ive tried to give him benefit of the doubt but mentally i dont think he has it. Bruno/rashford are both such weird players that can look like shit and still pop up with a goal. Antony i love but needs to really improve his decision making to be on a title squad. Other than that we still are looking at having like 4 spots filled right now in that scenario. Considering the money spent and our also absolute dearth of squad depth ill disagree we are doing things super right at the moment. This window gonna be key as hell.

 

[b82REZ]

i think arsenal wilted due to some key injuries, didnt saliba or someone in their defense get injured and the run pretty much went to shit. And tbh i dont really care about what neville says, dude living in the past still ha. This isnt the same old premier league from SAF times. Going forward think arsenal are in a much better spot than us right now for sure.

We'll see next season. I think Arsenal have missed their shot for the foreseeable and I can see them even struggling for top four with their raised expectations.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

We'll see next season. I think Arsenal have missed their shoy

yeah idk dont see it personally. They can easily just tweak in a couple signings and still be competing probs. City are just a machine though and can see them not competing like this year. Highly doubt they have that huge lead again. Hilarious they freaking choked it away so hard and fast haha. But if i had to guess between who finishes higher next season id bank on them, if only because feel like ownership gonna screw over our window for EtH.

 

[JPRouve]

agree for sure on martinez, garnacho i hope. Def disagree on sancho ive tried to give him benefit of the doubt but mentally i dont think he has it. Bruno/rashford are both such weird players that can look like shit and still pop up with a goal. Antony i love but needs to really improve his decision making to be on a title squad. Other than that we still are looking at having like 4 spots filled right now in that scenario. Considering the money spent and our also absolute dearth of squad depth ill disagree we are doing things super right at the moment. This window gonna be key as hell.

But you realize that Sancho is an example of why your idea that we need to only focus on young players is flawed? Cases like Sancho are more likely than cases like Vinicius, thats why you can't put all your eggs on the same basket or in our case base your future on a singular and limited strategy.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Or you don't. EtH is stubborn just like any other professional manager, that's why they are at that level. Also not too stubborn to not change. If anything EtH has showed he is very flexible with tactical set up and team selection.

That's not what I heard from our dutch friends. Actually that's not the first time I've seen that poster say something completely contradictory to what Ajax fans used to say.

 

[b82REZ]

yeah idk dont see it personally. They can easily just tweak in a couple signings and still be competing probs. City are just a machine though and can see them not competing like this year. Highly doubt they have that huge lead again. Hilarious they freaking choked it away so hard and fast haha. But if i had to guess between who finishes higher next season id bank on them, if only because feel like ownership gonna screw over our window for EtH.

I think you're being overly positive about Arsenal and overly negative about our position. Grass is greener and all that.

Arsenal looked good but they threw all the cups so they could focus on the league and still weren't good enough.

The real sleeper next season will be Chelsea. A pretty decent coach in Poch, decent looking squad and no midweek commitments. You'd expect them to be there or thereabouts next May.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

But you realize that Sancho is an example of why your idea that we need to only focus on young players is flawed? Cases like Sancho are more likely than cases like Vinicius, thats why you can't put all your eggs on the same basket or in our case base your future on a singular and limited strategy.

how and where did i say anything like that? And how does one bad younger signing (who was a huge money transfer and hyped youngster at that) mean we should never do it? Idk you lost me man. If anything we need to just stay away from dortmund players because they clearly get lost in translation here. Im merely saying we have been signing a lot of older players it seems to be important people for us. Cant keep relying on big money signings overall, but double risky when we keep also dipping into older players. Id just want signings like caicedo age wise and less like case/varane age wise. Not saying we constantly spend 100 million on sub 20 year old players. If anything we need to be doing more cheap youngster deals and go for quantity on that to hope that some hit.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

I think you're being overly positive about Arsenal and overly negative about our position. Grass is greener and all that.

Arsenal looked good but they threw all the cups so they could focus on the league and still weren't good enough.

The real sleeper next season will be Chelsea. A pretty decent coach in Poch, decent looking squad and no midweek commitments. You'd expect them to be there or thereabouts next May.

ha not sure you can say that then hype up a disaster place like chelsea ha. we have leech owners who dont want to leave, and several big holes in the squad/complete lack of squad depth in majority of our positions and desperately need a great transfer window. I hope EtH gets the support he needs feel like we finally have a proper manager. The way he handled ronaldo and maguire has been spot on for me and shows he has a spine