Of course progres is needed. Progress from the way we are top 4 this season (comfortable..) purely table wise is literally being in a title challenge. Thankfully there are multiple ways to measure progress, especially underlying metrics. Would expect a ton of underlying metric improvement even if it doesn't necessarily mean more points (we've overperformed expected points for example, massively underperformed expected goals even if the expected goals aren't good).
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Think it's more relevant to look at our expected points, expected goals next season and it's important to see big improvements in those metrics, as those are a better predictor of actual level than points totals which can be flukey (especially during progress seasons). Ours are a bit shit this season, but with clear reasons why and with clear splits so you can explain them away.
I can‘t tell if you are being sarcastic here. I hope for your sake that you are.
Why is that a bad thing in the mean time? What do you actually expect from next season with say just another 4 players out, 4 players in transfer approach?
If you look at Liverpool and Klopp they showed incremental progress season after season until they won the champions league and then the premier league. Look at Napoli who i think went from 7th, to 5th, to 3rd to 1st in Italy. Even Arsenal recently have shown a similar trajectory. You might get a title challenge next season with ETH but it's unrealistic with the problems of this squad to expect a premier league win.
The playstyle improvement will be key for next season because even under Jose and Ole you could see that things were not right or sustainable in the long run, despite slightly improved finishes in successive seasons. I think Jose beat Klopp to second in 17-18 when even the most biased United fan could see that the two clubs were heading in opposite directions and actually that they were better than us at that point, even if the table did lie.
Which part do you mean? ^^
If its about the club being happy to add some expertise then no, not being sarcastic. Obviously I don't know the clubs stance on this but if I owned a club I wouldn't be firmly against bringing in knowledge from the outside. Creating scouting reports and data summaries isn't something where somebody would need to be integrated deeply into the club as well. And on a freelance level maybe even more so.
I think, the user is very thorough when analyzing things so why not. Fan to exec is obviously tongue in cheek. But who knows. This one guy Rene Maric started as an author on Spielverlagerung (the German version of zonal marking, the tactics blog) and later become assistant manager....
'Abysmal' means horrendously bad. If you're 4th in the league table, you can expect to be around that place in the 'away table' as well - as indeed United are Being one place lower really isn't a big deal. Yes, it's unfortunate that United hasn't done better away against top opposition, but those are also by definition the hardest games, where a win is least likely.
However, turn a few of those games into draws and wins while maintaining the home form, and youre pretty much title contestants. In that sense, it's a reasonable result this year and shows a clear path to progress for the next.
So I don't quite understand why people are making this into such an enormous downer. Feels like the media have found a story angle and people are biting.
Going by his logic everyone bar Arsenal and Citeh have been abysmal away.
Arsenal- 36 points (11 wins. 3 draws)
Citeh- 33 points (10 wins, 3 draws)
Newcastle- 30 points (8 wins, 6 draws)
Brighton- 25 points (7 wins, 4 daws) (game in hand)
Us- 24 points (7 wins, 3 draws)
That's certainly what my expectation would be.
We'll likely finish top four this season and have certainly progressed from last season. But, being real, our actual level of performance this season could easily have seen us miss out on top four in other years, as indeed we were widely expected to at the start of the season.
We're not just 16 points behind the current league leaders, we're 48 goals behind them in goal difference and not much better in terms of expected goal difference with a 35 xG gap. That's 6th place in the league for both those measures. It's a massive gap in level and one you don't need stats to see, it's evident even if you just watch games.
Realistically we could improve a massive amount next season and still "just" finish in the top four. And if that's what happens, great, things will still be going in the right direction. I'll worry if it doesn't.
And unsurprisingly, that's the current top 5 (if Brighton win their game in hand).
I have to say I find this 'top 9' narrative funny. There is no such thing, it's how far down whoever first came up with this could go for this particular narrative. Also, I know people laught at the idea, but in the Alternative Table they have on RAWK, they consider what games a club aiming for the title should expect to win and can accept to draw or even lose. Those expectations probably have to change a bit given the new standard in point totals that City has set; but those 'away against the top 9' games is exactly where it's permissible to drop points - and in fact the only place where you could reasonably accept that and still challenge for the title. Yes, United have to improve in this regard; but do that, and you're likely competing for the title.
I don't think it's necessarily just results but also the style. We haven't just lost all our home games to top opposition, we have been absolutely battered against every good team in the league (bar Arsenal, which was our best performance of season away from OT and still, if they could finish it wouldn't have been just 3-2). City and Liverpool annihilated us, Newcastle should have beaten us by 4-5 as well, Brentford game was an absolute joke and if they hadn't stopped playing in the second half it would have been a 10-0, and then there's Sevilla game in EL which was downright embarrassing.
Yeah, we got 24 points so far and have done reasonably well against bottom 10 teams but when you look at manner of those wins, we have hardly had a convincing away win all season long - I'd literally only have Nottingham and Everton games on that list. Our wins at Wolves, Southampton, Fulham, Leeds and Leicester were all hard fought / lucky. It's of course acceptable to struggle to dispose even of lesser teams at their own ground but it's not fine to struggle to do that in almost every game you play. You can't have two genuinely good away games all season, just can't.
If people are deluding themselves into thinking that our away form has been acceptable then the bar is so low that it's no wonder people consider it an absolute miracle to finish top 4.
Pellistri now or Amad when he returns
Oh yeah his control of games is non existent,mind you doesn't help our midfield is utterly dire at either keeping the ball or progressing it effectively so no wonder
If you honestly think Wout Carthorst was the best CF Man Utd could get on loan… a man who also happens to be a good friend of ETH… and comes from the same town in Nederlands… then we’ll agree to disagree.
And once signed, and proven to be completely useless at this level, to keep starting him and bringing him on is very concerning for a Utd manager to be doing.
It’s very odd and is certainly something that put big question marks on ETH.
Home form won't be so good next season
Why not?
He’s not a good friend of ETH, they’ve never worked together before. No need to make things up.
I wasn't the only one obviously always suspected Arsenal was over performing this season based on their squad depth, experience and I still can't really rate Arteta. A couple of injuries, one or two bad results and the wheels came off which shouldn't have surprised anyone.
It's fairly obvious looking at the number of games we've played and the drop off when some of the replacements come in that we need to increase out squad depth and the quality of our squad to effectively challenge on all fronts.
I found the post you replied to funny though as ten Hag is apparently simultaneously running the squad into the ground and causing injuries so much that he can't now rotate at all but this also isn't the worst injury crisis seen at OT and these things happen in football.
I'm a fan of ETH's work this season for the most part, he's won us a trophy and looks like we're on course for top four, which would be a good first season to build from. One thing I thought we'd see a bit more at this point on the pitch however is more fluidity in our passing. Particularly the front three which had looked disjointed for years now whoever lines up. Our decision making from an attacking sense can be still far too bewildering this late into the season.
That's a slightly bizarre take given a player like Kane could well have won us the game yesterday by taking some of our first half chances.
Really fear he will have a very frustrating summer window. We aren't going anywhere quickly until a lot of these players are moved on, it is clearly not a 2 or 3 year job.
Absolutely
Exactly he fecked up big time on that
If we had Kane yesterday we’d have won comfortably. Our attackers had chances that he’d have buried without a doubt.
Yeah glad someone else brought up how fortunate we are to win those away games against teams in the bottom half
Players we
Agree 100% and the reaction to last night result or any poor result is throwing the toys out with the bath water. We at United do not deserve instant success it has to be earned like our previous winning squads did. Leave in all on the park ? only a handfull do it. `This squad under previous managers were quite happy to throw them under the bus as long as the wages were still paid. The reason for last night are simple Marriner was never sending Casemiro off even though he wanted to so to compensate he gave Brighton a free pass to foul without recourse. Why did Rashford seemingly fall over in front of the linesman when he was 99% favoured to get the ball before the Antony incident. Antony was then fouled more than the free kick Shaw gave away at the end yet nothing from the ref. Brighton 100% knew they could foul our runners on counteracts as the ref wasn't penalising them. At one such incident 2 of our players end up on the floor in one incident. We are not getting anything away from home maybe its because Ten Hag is new. New anything doesn't get the run of the green in life you have to fight tooth and nail for it. It ran same as the Palace game Martinez elbowed in the face , McTominay no penalty. Yet we have watch Liverpool hand a pen for Nunez not been touched by Fulham player yet Wout was cleaned out, no pen. You know how this is going they want Liverpool in CL. We have to get behind the team 100% from here on in and get the points one way or tother. We have to get street wise and be better at the cheating. We will have plenty of time post FA Cup to set the bonfires and negativity.
3 years is an extremely long time in football. If we can’t turn things around in that timespan given our resources and status, then we likely won’t after that.
Can you list the CF's that were available or went on loan in January that went for a 2.5m or less fee?
ETH reportedly wanted Gakpo but we had no money because the glazers ran us dry. Could have had Felix who would have probably done well but ETH wasn't allowed to stump up the 10m fee because again, glazers.
If only there were another way to assess team quality - something like taking the total number of points accrued over the course of the season against ALL teams in one league, irrespective of whether they are in the top 9 of the league or not. You could also further and count matches against teams when we play at Old Trafford if you felt like it!
So you think that Weghorst was genuinely the finest CF ON EARTH available to Manchester United?
Yes or no will do.
Either ETH fecked up by bringing him in and has thus fecked up further by constantly playing him, or not.
I just don't see the ability within the club to rid itself of a lot of the players that need to go, while also recruiting properly to replace them. Certainly not this summer, which I can see being a very frustrating one in the market.
If he didn't want him and just signed him because no one else was available, why does he keep on bringing him whenever we're in a tight corner instead of a youngster like Pellistri ?
Gee, if only we had an entire department dedicated to scouting and recruitment...
I don’t expect us to see major turnaround in the Summer but then there’s Winter after that and the following Summer and there’s another year after that. The look of the team in 2025 let alone 2026 should be drastically different.
Ah the classic case of "just throw the unproven youngster on even if he plays a different position, can't be worse".
You’re defending the indefensible. He brought Weghorst in because he knew him and that’s it. Whilst signing a major striker wasn’t going to happen, the idea that weghorst was the best resort is laughable.
Man United could have signed about 10 strikers in the Championship better than Weghorst who wouldn’t have cost more than 5-6 million. Three years ago we loaned in a much much better player then Weghorst in Odion Ighalo.
Ten Haag simply doesn’t have a wide enough range of knowledge on footballers. Hence why the majority of his signings have come from Holland. He can’t fall back on our recruitment department because they are absolutely horrific at identifying suitable players for this club.
This club is literally built on trusting youngsters and giving them chances. This was a major complaint many had here with some of the previous managers. This just more of confirm why I believe Ten Hag is treated with double standards in comparison to our previous managers.
That's beside the logic of trying something new than just throwing the same shit again and again at the opponent and expecting different things. At least there's a chance the former will work.
Too much being made of the away form, especially as a lot of it is couched in against 'top 8, top 9, top 12' caveats so as to not include that we tend to beat all the rest of the league away.
Swap out some home wins for away wins - i.e. we lose at home to Arsenal, Spurs, City, Newcastle and Liverpool, but beat all those away except draw away to Newcastle - we still have the same points we do now, but now people are saying - our home form is awful versus the top 6, if you want ot be winning the league you have to be winning at home against your main rivals....
Swap out some home wins for away wins - i.e. we lose at home to Arsenal, Spurs, City, Newcastle and Liverpool, but beat all those away except draw away to Newcastle - we still have the same points we do now, but now people are saying - our home form is awful versus the top 6, if you want ot be winning the league you have to be winning at home against your main rivals....
This away form is rightly being hammered
I'm no scout or professional recruiter, but it seems to me it would have been every penny to bring in Felix on loan rather than Wout. We're still a good bet to qualify for top four but we're now shitting bricks. Why? Several reasons, but the main reason because we've had to rely on Martial and Weghorst, neither of whom is up to the job. Management decided the loan fee wasn't worth it but if we do miss out on top four we can go straight back to the decision to bring in Weghorst and not Felix to fill the hole in the squad that Martial -- who hoovers in 250/week -- has created with his "I don't give a fukk attitude" toward the club or the sport.
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