Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[pocco]

Bollocks, what a hysterical take . Under other managers it made sense if a manger didn't get top 4 to sack them, but it's not the case for Ten Hag. I'd be gutted and it won't be good enough if we finish 5th after how the season has panned out, but to start again would be utterly ridiculous when painful slop like Jose and LVG got longer.

I'm not sure where I stand on this, though I suspect there will be outrage if it actually happened that we don't finish 4th. But what is your reason for saying this? I suspect many of the people that won't hear any criticism are the ones that bleated on about him being as good as Pep etc and are trying to save face.

 

[bosnian_red]

Is that supposed to be good ? It's indeed abysmal.

We will probably end 4th given we are 1 behind Brighton in that table and play Bournemouth and west ham while they play Arsenal, Newcastle and villa away. So virtually top 4 in the away table I'd say is fine, isn't it?

Of course, the record against the top half away is shit, but we've more than made up for that by being almost impeccable against the bottom half away, and having an excellent home record, and having the most clean sheets in the league.

 

[fallengt]

5th.

Alright mate. Let celebrate a point against Tottenham.
Indeed a miracle work, definitely not the 0-7, 0-4, 3-6 or few others, when oppo could've easily smashed us 4 nil

 

[Berbaclass]

Is that supposed to be good ? It's indeed abysmal.

That’s not what abysmal means. If it was abysmal we would be bottom 5 not in the top 5.

 

[el3mel]

I don't think next season is going to be that different for us. I think Liverpool will be better, I think Newcastle, Brighton and Arsenal will struggle as they've almost exclusively focused on league football and will have far more fixture congestion, Chelsea will likely still be a mess, Spurs likely deep in a rebuild, while I think United will be mostly similar. Progressing in ways, position in the table not changing because we are still far from a title race.

Also, that's mostly impacted by Liverpool winning 5 straight and us having games in hand. 13 points from our last 18 available is decent. Win the game in hand and we are 7 clear. Liverpool need to win 9 straight to end the season and hope that United fail to get 9 points from the last 15 available for them to be ahead of us... And again, you just can't ignore cup game impact.

Newcastle and Arsenal will be as good next season if not better. They have good fundamentals and are going to spend more cash on the team. Both teams won't reach far stages in Europe so I see no reason for that fixture congestion excuse.

 

[Hammondo]

Overpaying I agree with. And yes they can only be judged on what they do here - but sometimes you do have to question why we can't get the best out of them. Even in dead rubber games with no pressure, there is still no performance. If Fergie was in charge I reckon he'd get far more out of some of these players than any of our managers have done. You would never, ever see a player like Sancho playing without belief under him, because he was so good at building them up to perform.

That is true, but the players do not suit each other. Some players are better at setting deep and counter attacking (maguire, rashford, antony), some better are more link-up play (sancho, shaw, erikson), and some in the middle in a mish mash. I am sure SAF could do better but he would also need to buy players quick to challenge.

 

[el3mel]

We will probably end 4th given we are 1 behind Brighton in that table and play Bournemouth and west ham while they play Arsenal, Newcastle and villa away. So virtually top 4 in the away table I'd say is fine, isn't it?

Of course, the record against the top half away is shit, but we've more than made up for that by being almost impeccable against the bottom half away, and having an excellent home record, and having the most clean sheets in the league.

Not bad, but hardly any good.

 

[evil_geko]

Alright mate. Let celebrate a point against Tottenham.
Indeed a miracle work, definitely not the 0-7, 0-4, 3-6 or few others, when oppo could've easily smashed us 4 nils

Not celebrating anything, but suddenly "Top 9" being the thing because it fits the agenda the best is silly. Because of that my "5th" post was perfect silly response to silly post.

 

[bosnian_red]

So it's a long term project for Ten Hag but it wasn't for the previous managers ?

It is always a long term project. Managers need to show they deserve the time along the way. Ten hag has us top 4, has won a trophy and in a cup final for another trophy. Has had excellent home games in big games.

Ole got the time when he finished 3rd and 2nd. Mourinho got the time when he won trophies and finished 2nd the next year. Van Gaal got time when he finished 4th. If you go backwards and fail on objectives and start collapsing, then yes, you get sacked. If United failed to do well in the cups, failed to be top 4 and got hammered in the big games in the way we have this season then yes, Ten Hags position would be under threat. It's very far from what the reality is though.

 

[bosnian_red]

Not bad, but hardly any good.

It's fine. We all know what state he took over, we all know that the league target was at best top 4 anyway, so if we are top 4 away from home, top 4 at home, top 4 in the final table... Then what the hell are we bitching about? Is good only if we compete for the title? Anything else is abysmal?

 

[el3mel]

It is always a long term project. Managers need to show they deserve the time along the way. Ten hag has us top 4, has won a trophy and in a cup final for another trophy. Has had excellent home games in big games.

Ole got the time when he finished 3rd and 2nd. Mourinho got the time when he won trophies and finished 2nd the next year. Van Gaal got time when he finished 4th. If you go backwards and fail on objectives and start collapsing, then yes, you get sacked. If United failed to do well in the cups, failed to be top 4 and got hammered in the big games in the way we have this season then yes, Ten Hags position would be under threat. It's very far from what the reality is though.

That's not the point. They're arguing if Ten Hag should be sacked if he lost on top 4 this season in the next 5 games. The response is "it was like that for the previous managers but Ten Hag is different because it's a long term project for him" ?? Previous managers were also long term project.

 

[el3mel]

It's fine. We all know what state he took over, we all know that the league target was at best top 4 anyway, so if we are top 4 away from home, top 4 at home, top 4 in the final table... Then what the hell are we bitching about? Is good only if we compete for the title? Anything else is abysmal?

The problem is this team shows zero signs of being anywhere close to even remotely challenge for the league next year. Top 4 is fine for now, what's the target next season ?

 

[fallengt]

Not celebrating anything, but suddenly "Top 9" being the thing because it fits the agenda the best is silly. Because of that my "5th" post was perfect silly response to silly post.

Bad means bad.
He deserves the praise for Old Trafford form whilst also deserves criticism for away form. These are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Berbaclass]

The problem is this team shows zero signs of being anywhere close to even remotely challenge for the league next year. Top 4 is fine for now, what's the target next season ?

If you expected us to challenge for the league this year then you need to review your expectations.

 

[bosnian_red]

Newcastle and Arsenal will be as good next season if not better. They have good fundamentals and are going to spend more cash on the team. Both teams won't reach far stages in Europe so I see no reason for that fixture congestion excuse.

Why wouldn't they go far in Europe? As you say, they are good teams, and teams don't throw away the CL. Domestic cups have an element of luck to them, sure, but going out super early in them and having regular full weeks off is rare. United has been severely impacted by our schedule and it's a bit extreme this year, but we have one of the busiest schedules every single season - and that's normal for big clubs. Newcastle and Arsenal will be good next year, but have fewer points in the league, simply because they've had everything go their way this season to have the optimal league finish for themselves. They won't have that luck next year, simply because it just doesn't happen to big teams.

 

[evil_geko]

Not bad, but hardly any good.

Look at the seasons circumstances ffs, first dealing with Ronaldo petulancy for months while trying to implement whole different playstyle to a group of players not suited for any. Then WC interrupting season which added horrible fixture congestion whole season, we played the most games from all clubs this season, lots of injuries whole season for our very important players, basically not having a pure striker whole season, several suspensions for one of our most important player. Then this whole Glazer situation which didn't allow for any decent January moves. Ten Hag has had the worst conditions out of all previous post-SAF managers, and still managed to get a Cup, is in the FA Cup final, and finishing Top 4 probably while having great home record.

Fecking context.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Even if we finish 5th, I think it would be madness if we sacked him. I'd be just beyond fed up with us and football if we acted in that manner.

I agree. All it would do is please our kneejerk fans that can't wait for the next shiny toy. Rinse and repeat.

 

[el3mel]

Why wouldn't they go far in Europe? As you say, they are good teams, and teams don't throw away the CL. Domestic cups have an element of luck to them, sure, but going out super early in them and having regular full weeks off is rare. United has been severely impacted by our schedule and it's a bit extreme this year, but we have one of the busiest schedules every single season - and that's normal for big clubs. Newcastle and Arsenal will be good next year, but have fewer points in the league, simply because they've had everything go their way this season to have the optimal league finish for themselves. They won't have that luck next year, simply because it just doesn't happen to big teams.

Best Arsenal and Newcastle can achieve in CL at the moment in comparison to other European teams will be QF.

That also applies on us, by the way.

 

[Berbaclass]

Look at the seasons circumstances ffs, first dealing with Ronaldo petulancy for months while trying to implement whole different playstyle to a group of players not suited for any. Then WC interrupting season which added horrible fixture congestion whole season, we played the most games from all clubs this season, lots of injuries whole season for our very important players, basically not having a pure striker whole season, several suspensions for one of our most important player. Then this whole Glazer situation which didn't allow for any decent January moves. Ten Hag has had the worst conditions out of all previous post-SAF managers, and still managed to get a Cup, is in the FA Cup final, and finishing Top 4 probably while having great home record.

Fecking context.

Be interesting to see how many times we’ve fielded our first choice team this season. Can’t be many.

 

[bosnian_red]

The problem is this team shows zero signs of being anywhere close to even remotely challenge for the league next year. Top 4 is fine for now, what's the target next season ?

Cementing top 4, progressing on system and showing growth in the analytics in the league table. Hell, getting mid 70s points again like we are likely to this season but with a better GD, having a good showing in the CL and looking more like a top team more consistently would be good next season, even if it's trophyless.

Everyone can see we won't make the jump to league challengers right away, not with this City side. Step by step growth.

 

[el3mel]

Look at the seasons circumstances ffs, first dealing with Ronaldo petulancy for months while trying to implement whole different playstyle to a group of players not suited for any. Then WC interrupting season which added horrible fixture congestion whole season, lots of injuries whole season for our very important players, several suspensions for one of our most important player. Then this whole Glazer situation which didn't allow for any decent January moves. Ten Hag has had the worst conditions out of all previous post-SAF managers, and still managed to get a Cup, is in the FA Cup final, and finishing Top 4 probably while having great home record.

Fecking context.

The WC thing applies on all teams on the league. It's hilarious people keep posting this as an excuse for us and us only.

Fixture congestion, fatigue and injuries are normal circumstances that happen to any big club playing in multiple competition at this stage of the season and it's the manager's job to manage his squad and set out his priorities to get past them. He's getting paid for this. That's his goddamn job.

The reality is Ten Hag's management of the squad has been pretty poor all season and he ran a lot of players into ground by playing them non stop without regular rotation which ended up in injuries and fatigue piling up, and he now can't even rest any player even if he wants to. A lot of people pointed this out here back when it was happening.

I'm honestly sick of these kind of excuses. It's freaking May. Fatigue and injuries are normal routine at this point of the season. I have seen far worse injury crisis for Man United under the previous managers and even under Ferguson. Managers are supposed to deal with this. Not everything is going to rosy and smooth all the time.

 

[Judas]

I'm not sure where I stand on this, though I suspect there will be outrage if it actually happened that we don't finish 4th. But what is your reason for saying this? I suspect many of the people that won't hear any criticism are the ones that bleated on about him being as good as Pep etc and are trying to save face.

I just think he's shown enough in a tough season full of issues that he deserves longer.

 

[el3mel]

Cementing top 4, progressing on system and showing growth in the analytics in the league table. Hell, getting mid 70s points again like we are likely to this season but with a better GD, having a good showing in the CL and looking more like a top team more consistently would be good next season, even if it's trophyless.

Everyone can see we won't make the jump to league challengers right away, not with this City side. Step by step growth.

So the target for next season is ultimately just another top 4 and improving playstyle ? Ok.

 

[Solius]

So the target for next season is ultimately just another top 4 and improving playstyle ? Ok.

Wahhhh

 

[Big Ben Foster]

We spent £230m in the summer lads, stop saying he wasn't backed.

Brighton spent £45m.

The club throwing stupid amounts of money around reactively without an actual strategy in place isn't my idea of backing.

 

[JustinC00]

Jose's first season we were 10W-4D-5L (34 points) away and 8-10-1 (34 points) at home
OGS' first full season we were 8-5-6 (29 points) away and 10-7-2 (31 points) at home (OGS 2nd season we were 9-4-6 (31 points) at home)
This season we are 7W-3D-7L. If we were to win at West Ham and Bournemouth it would be 9W-3D-7L (30 points). Jose & OGS didn't have to deal with a WC in the middle of their first season and playing a match on average every 3 days for 4-5 months.

But at home with 3 matches to play we are 12-3-1 (39 points). The loss being his 1st match in charge and 1 of the draws being when we had to play with 10 men for more than half the match and still probably should have won but were robbed of a penalty.

Say whatever you want about ETH but you can't say he hasn't started to make Old Trafford a fortress again when for the 4 seasons before teams would come in and take it to us, we didn't have more than 10 wins at Old Trafford in any of the last 4 seasons. If we manage to win our last 3 home matches it would actually be 1 point better than Jose's 17/18 season and it would be the first time we have gotten 48 points at home since SAF's last season when we got 48 points. and if we don't lose any of the 3 it would be the first time since '10/11 that we had less than 2 losses at Old Trafford

 

[bosnian_red]

Best Arsenal and Newcastle can achieve in CL at the moment in comparison to other European teams will be QF.

That also applies on us, by the way.

I mean it depends on the draw always. Real Madrid are elite, while United deservedly knocked out Barca who are gonna win the league (they aren't better than Madrid but just having a season where it all falls their way). We are roughly similar to Barca right now. Bayern is ahead but having a bit of a disaster spell the last few months, but yeah you'd assume they go back to normal. No other German side is ahead. PSG is very meh, will lose Messi, fair chance they lose Neymar and without them, they aren't ahead of the top PL sides either. Similar level, sure.

A lot more goes into how well a team does in the CL, but Newcastle, United, Arsenal and City will all be amongst the top 8 in the CL next season.

 

[Judas]

So the target for next season is ultimately just another top 4 and improving playstyle ? Ok.

Do you expect us to win the treble instead? Your posts about Ten Hag are so unbelievably unbalanced its impressive.

 

[crossy1686]

The club throwing stupid amounts of money around reactively without an actual strategy in place isn't my idea of backing.

I agree, but Ten Hag insisted on Antony for £90m, he could have vetoed that for someone cheaper who can do what he does. Then he wouldn't have had to go cap in hand back to the board once we got hammered in our first two games for a midfielder when the budget was already spent.

 

[bosnian_red]

So the target for next season is ultimately just another top 4 and improving playstyle ? Ok.

What do you expect? Look at city with pep FFS
He's one of the best managers ever, their squad depth is ridiculous, and it is entirely his squad that he's spent years with. So yes, progress is the name of the game until he's had a few years to progress us sufficiently and be able to get a squad that can challenge. Hell, he might not ultimately be enough to actually win it. Klopp is one of the best managers of the modern era and only won the title once despite the multiple high 90s finishes. And it took them years of implementing his system and pretty much perfect recruitment.

 

[el3mel]

Do you expect us to win the treble instead? Your posts about Ten Hag are so unbelievably unbalanced its impressive.

It's the opposite. Some of you are completely fine with whatever he achieves as long as it's Ten Hag. Look at your earlier post about losing on top 4 this year "It would have been like that for previous managers but not Ten Hag". Why exactly ? He's just another employee for the club like the previous managers.

The expectation for next season should be at least be close to the top by the end of March. If we drop after it, it'll be fine but we would have shown progress and that we can actually close the gap with the top. I don't expect us to win the league, but settling for another top 4 finish next season and be content with it will be inacceptable for any other manager, bar Ten Hag.

He should be evaluated based on what he achieve. Finish top 4 with the cup win this year and he deserves another year. If no improvement over this is achieved next year, it'll be fair to ask if that's his ceiling or not. That's reasonable.

He's not immune. Some of you just never learn from giving managers immunity like what some did with the previous managers.

 

[el3mel]

What do you expect? Look at city with pep FFS
He's one of the best managers ever, their squad depth is ridiculous, and it is entirely his squad that he's spent years with. So yes, progress is the name of the game until he's had a few years to progress us sufficiently and be able to get a squad that can challenge. Hell, he might not ultimately be enough to actually win it. Klopp is one of the best managers of the modern era and only won the title once despite the multiple high 90s finishes. And it took them years of implementing his system and pretty much perfect recruitment.

As I said in the post above, be close to the top and in a title challenge comes March. I'm not asking to win the league next season, but asking for a title challenge, or at least to be a nuisance around the top in March or April is a fair and reasonable expectation, and what anyone would expect from a manager in his 2nd year.

 

[Swedish_Plumber]

It is strange that we’ve become so good at home under him against all sides but so poor away against the top 10.

Think that form will be the number one target he has for improvement next season as if we can get it anywhere near our home form we’ll be right up there.

 

[justboy68]

What do you expect? Look at city with pep FFS
He's one of the best managers ever, their squad depth is ridiculous, and it is entirely his squad that he's spent years with. So yes, progress is the name of the game until he's had a few years to progress us sufficiently and be able to get a squad that can challenge. Hell, he might not ultimately be enough to actually win it. Klopp is one of the best managers of the modern era and only won the title once despite the multiple high 90s finishes. And it took them years of implementing his system and pretty much perfect recruitment.

Yeah I would say better to focus on our own points return rather than comparing directly to others. The aim next season should be to break 80 points imo.That's unlikely to be title challenging form but it would be clear progress and show if we are on the right track. If we are scraping around the 70 point mark again at the end of the season to hang on for top 4 then we can be disappointed.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

The WC thing applies on all teams on the league. It's hilarious people keep posting this as an excuse for us and us only.

Fixture congestion, fatigue and injuries are normal circumstances that happen to any big club playing in multiple competition at this stage of the season and it's the manager's job to manage his squad and set out his priorities to get past them. He's getting paid for this. That's his goddamn job.

The reality is Ten Hag's management of the squad has been pretty poor all season and he ran a lot of players into ground by playing them non stop without regular rotation which ended up in injuries and fatigue piling up, and he now can't even rest any player even if he wants to. A lot of people pointed this out here back when it was happening.

I'm honestly sick of these kind of excuses. It's freaking May. Fatigue and injuries are normal routine at this point of the season. I have seen far worse injury crisis for Man United under the previous managers and even under Ferguson. Managers are supposed to deal with this. Not everything is going to rosy and smooth all the time.

We literally just saw the impact it had on Arsenal. They dropped out of the EL, lost Saliba and then proceeded to pick up 3 points from 4 games and, in the process, lose the massive advantage they had over City. This was the pretty much the best team in England up until May. A team that has been in the work for a few years, yet all it took was few negatively impacting events to derail their season (lets face it, the league is Citys).

 

[humdinger]

Games like this show why we can’t spend really big on a single player like Kane or Caicedo. We have too many positions we need to upgrade and need to spread out the funds.

 

[Adnan]

Is Martinez declared as crap? Doesn't he have to play out from the back with the same goalie and RB. What a rubbish argument.

No, Martinez isn't or wasn't declared as crap but he wouldn't be the first receiver in midfield like de Jong would be. And if we had got de Jong instead of Casemiro, he would've been expected to win first and second balls because the build up phase which begins with the keeper would again be exposed by those teams who are adept at pressing high, which would mean we again resort to playing direct football with the keeper kicking it long and de Jong's weaknesses being exposed off the ball in a playstyle that doesn't suit him.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

As I said in the post above, be close to the top and in a title challenge comes March. I'm not asking to win the league next season, but asking for a title challenge, or at least to be a nuisance around the top in March or April is a fair and reasonable expectation, and what anyone would expect from a manager in his 2nd year.

We were challenging though, were we not? 9 games ago (March time), we were all of 5 points behind Arsenal.

 

[NZT-One]

I understand where you're coming from regarding Frenkie de Jong. But for me we made improvements by bringing in Eriksen and Casemiro who are better than Fred and McTominay imo. And it's a work in progress to develop a playing style at a club like United that has for almost a decade been signing players for a reactive brand of football rather than a proactive brand of football, which has meant we fell behind clubs like Liverpool and City when it comes to developing a playing style that befits a club of our stature. We have too many players that have been signed by previous managers who simply aren't good enough on the ball when it comes to building up play from the back. And whenever we play against any team that is technically strong in possession and are adept at pressing high collectively, we have problems. And our starting goalkeeper is the biggest issue, and he's a goalkeeper that has been deemed to be not good enough by the Spanish national team via their former head Coach, Luis Enrique for the same reasons.

Nothing to add, couldn't have said it any better. One note to make my point in regards to FDJ a bit more clear: I thought that the club would be trying to bring in a longterm player. Someone who is in or close to his prime, offering exactly what we need in a certain position, is proven on the highest level and physically ready to contribute from day one. Eriksen and Casemira don't check all the boxes (obviously they check a lot of them) - FDJ would have checked all of them (even though personally I am not a huge fan of him). Actually I am happy we ended up with Casemiro instead as I thought, a midfield player who is very capable against the ball would be more useful than a progressor. Not because one role trumps the other, but because I thought maybe a DM could "unlock" progressing skills with Fred, Bruno, McTom or DVB. To me it seemed more likely those guys would be able to find something in terms of progressing the ball than that they would find something in terms of defensive skills.

Antony isn't the problem imo eventhough we overpaid for him due to the Glazers making additional funds available near the end of the window. And they likely did provide next seasons transfer budget but they had no choice due to how poorly we had finished the season under Rangnick after things imploded with Solskjaer and a budget of £120m was never enough with even Spurs spending £170m, via their DoF Paratici.

I think, in this situation overpaying to such a degree is a problem. Not to beat anyone with it. But I really hope the club isn't going to repeat something like this.

I don't believe we will only sign ten Hag affiliated players in the coming season because there is a new team in place that has replaced the outgoing head scouts from last season with the extra addition of a data science lead. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't sign certain players from Holland, due to Holland historically producing some of the best players in the world. Liverpool have signed plenty of players that Klopp pushed for.

I think I know what you mean. I am not particularly against Dutch players or ones from that league. On the contrary. Buy whoever you feel can be useful to you. Issue is solely the price and that (to me) it kind of made it evident, that we didn't really had a plan prepared.

I expect a much better transfer window due to the stability within the recruitment structure after the dismissal of Bout and Lawlor on the eve of last summers transfer window. So I'm looking forward to seeing what Jose Mayorga, Simon Wells (Head scouts) and Mick Court and Dominic Jordan (data science) will provide as options now that they've had a full season to compile and collate scout reports. And hopefully Matt Hargreaves who has joined as the head of transfer negotiations, will also be good at his job. Bayern have also raided Adidas for people to join their football structure.

Yeah will be interesting to see, how much of an effect a new team and a new approach will have and how it will be "visible" from the outside.

I wish someone would give me a job in recruitment because I dont believe it's difficult to sign players for a particular play style. Especially if I've also got the support of the rest of the scouts and data scientists.

I'd be happy to recommend you to them. Have you ever thought about offering your skills to them? Maybe they're happy to bring in expertise, maybe in form of freelance first. Imagine the story the club could promote - from fan to exec. I'm sure you'd have the backing of everybody here.

 

[NLunited]

Then push Rashford up top alone and bring on another midfielder to pack the middle of the park and add to the press.

There is absolutely no need to ever bring Weghorst on for Man Utd, no need.

Just as there was no need to sign him on loan.

Both are jump the shark type decisions from ETH.

We needed no striker? Who would you have signed without spending more than a few million?

WW helped us through a congested period when Martial was injured. You should not look a Gifthorst in the mouth.