It’s funny because we’ve been so good at making actual shite teams look great in recent years too.
Whenever we actually control a game and make it easy for ourselves it’s very underplayed.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Whenever we actually control a game and make it easy for ourselves it’s very underplayed.
I think that's because a lot of assessment of performance is based on the idea 'how much did you manage to pull of in a game'. If you don't manage to pull off much, often the team is criticized for being bad on the day, not putting in enough effort, etc. But often, that lack of ability to make things happen is really caused by the opposition's approach nullifying your own approach and strenghts, and basically forcing you out of your routines - causing you to have to improvise outside of your comfort zone and making (almost) everything you do look clumsy and poor.
I didn't see the game so I don't know what it was here, but I think often when people say things like 'the players couldn't be arsed today' or 'the opponent was just shit', the real issue is something tactical that broke all fluidity in the relevant team's play.
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It’s of course good with a trophy, but I wrote it is not really a sign of progress compared to the last years and considering which teams we played.
I think there are signs of good things happening but there is no consistency. We also have problems with fully dominating other teams and closing the games. As I wrote before, I like what I see, but it must also show in the results.
I am also confident we’ll reach top 4 and CL next season but I never expect less from United.
An nobody was talking about sacking him. So I guess, all sides could just chill out a bit.
Pretty sure, nobody would start a discussion when worded like that.
Thats were we disagree. Granted, we definitely look better since a long time. Games are often entertaining. ETH brought Organisation and a minimum level of bite and intesity to the players so thats that. Whether football is that much nicer, I'd not be so sure. Better than last year for sure, but being better that shit isn't sooo difficult. I feel, more often then not, we still get back into the trot of playing long balls in behind more often than not. Don't take it the wrong way, nothing wrong with that, especially when you have Rashford in-form in the side. I hope, ETH will bring a level of control to the team in the near future. We were at a point relatively close to that a while ago under Ole, we were terrific back then playing ultra transitional football and made use of Rash, Greenwood and Martial. We are better now in terms of builtup but apart from that, I'd say there's not too much between those teams. I am optimistic that ETH will help us reach the next level.
Thank you Captain Obvious ^^ The point was, that a 10/10 should be reserved for out of this world achievements. As I said, something like Tuchels 1st season at Chelsea. It is ultra rare but it does happen, and to me, theres no point, having a scale, that isn't able to depict, out of this world achievements but never uses any grades below 4.
Not entirely sure how Forrest usually play but they tried to have a go at us which opened big rooms for Eriksen and especially Bruno to operate in. The manager also didn't really react to this, even though it might have made sense to adjust the team. So we were pretty good and stopped the opponent from stuff but I thought, they didn't challenge us too hard.
SAF first 4 seasons as MUFC manager:
11th
2nd
11th
13th
The previous 5 seasons saw the club finishing either 3rd or 4th.
The EtH critics in this thread would have been campaigning to sack SAF before the end of his first season, and everyone else would have joined them by the end of the 3rd.
We did switch Antony to the left in some games. It depends on the oppostion, I guess.
Not heard that term for a long time.
This thread is like watching pissed up people argue about the last bowel free nuts in a bar.
I'm just happy to watch good football, he's doing a great job. Last seasons footy was so so bad.
He really is doing a great job indeed. Won't see me argue it
Ye that’s the main thing for me aswell… being able to enjoy watching us play again. He’s got us playing some great football, yes he’s had some bad results this season but it’s his first year in the prem. with the style of play he’s trying to introduce he will get us trophy’s.
I used to love seeing Giggsy on the right and Becks out left
Yes, when SAF invented inverted (typing that with a hangover is hard) wingers.
I miss old school wingers.
I think, this season 10/10 would be 3 cups won - it would mean 3 trophies and a CL spot (regardless of the league position). Any 2 cups and a CL spot would be a very strong 9/10. 1 cup and a CL spot would be a solid 8.
Sorry but these comparisons had been done and explained to be Apple vs Orange scenario previously. Let me repeat the context:
SAF got the job because Ron Atkinson was doing badly where we were in 19th place (the league had 22 teams then). SAF saved us from potential relegation/relegation play off and brought us to top half of the table. Why do you sack someone who had an impressive CV, after he came to the rescue midseason and showed result?
Since 1985-1986 season for the following 5 seasons, English clubs were banned from European competitions. There was no difference between the 2nd placed loser and the rest of non relegated teams achievement wise. No consolation prize in UEFA Cup qualification. Basically win the league or nothing.
First full season, second place showed promise of the young SAF at the club. Second full season had a bad end, but until the free fall since latter half of February, SAF had us in top half of the table and as high as 3rd place in early February.
The third full season 89-90 was when the infamous Fergie out banner occurred, with us having an awful season in the league where we're in bottom half for most of the season, even with a potential relegation. The tension built up since previous season bad end. It's totally understandable why some people reacted the way they did. The FA Cup triumph at the end of this season, which gave us one of the few obtainable trophies English clubs could enjoy is huge. SAF admitted this triumph saved him. This is the real time where patience being tested because SAF put all his egg into winning the FA Cup to save his job. The board stood by him and gave him the end of the season.
Conveniently, 90-91 season saw that the ban was lifted for most English teams (bar Liverpool). We used this chance to win Cup Winners Cup which showed progress despite lukewarm 6th place finish in the league. Next season, we won League Cup, finished second in the league. And then PL triumph, and we all know what happened next.
The point being with context, it's not so black and white to take the top red stand condemning other fan for being impatient. The circumstances back then was very different. In modern day context, we're on a different level now. The club SAF took over had less league titles than Everton (they're a winning/title contender during this period), and Arsenal. We might see Liverpool as our biggest rival, but Liverpool at that time might see Everton a bigger rival and potential biggest rival for them than us. The club was not the biggest/richest club in the land. Expectation is much different. How prestige of the trophies, PL became the very top league, the priority had also been significantly changed.
"Giving time" excuses were not applicable to Moyes and Ole who didn't have the CV to back up any future promises of them as manager. Even when SAF with CV, needed those milestone to show the progress of his work. So once Moyes, Ole slipped, they had nothing cling to to ask for more time.
As for ETH, he's doing well. I don't see anyone calling for his head. Even if I miss those, it's so few in number in comparison to how large our fanbase is to really form any influence. Don't use that those minor unpopular to generalize all critics and demonize them same as the impatient because taking thing like league position out of context to make one point, you can't use context to argue about ETH doing better than Ole's 2nd and 3rd place finish for example.
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But when 6 is a generally accepted “good” mark, even 8 is way, way above “good”. And 8 is all but in his pocket already - just CL qualification needed, which we are on the right track to get. 1 cup has already been won. So anything in addition (EL or English cup) would make this season fantastic (ie 9/10). And 10/10 is by definition something extraordinary, something that happens very rarely
The majority of fans only see the PL and forget how we struggled with all the managers from Busby in 1967 to Fergie pre PL. TH has won a trophy in his first season and if my memeory serves me right I cant remember anyone from Busby to RR doing that.
JM won the league Cup and EL in his first season
The most important thing you said was about circumstances being different then which is right. There was no Champions league, no top 4, so it was for the Champions of the league to play in the European cup only. Even this wasnt on the same level, money wise by comparison to todays Ch Lge, taking deflation into account.
If Fergie had have took over say in 2013 following a successful manager, he wouldnt have reached 4 seasons with the same finishes, without getting sacked.
It's worth noting that when Casemiro, Eriksen and Bruno have played together you have never lost. According to the The Athletic, they've played together 17 times with you winning 15 and drawing 2.
I think you should read my previous post again. I believe you misread what I tried to convey.
SAF took over a club which at the time had less league title than Everton. League title drought had run 2.5 decades. The team he took over was facing relegation threat.
At the time, he took over, English clubs were under ban for all European competition. No UEFA cup, no Cup Winners' Cup. League winner couldn't participate in the old version of CL either. So unless you challenge, or win the league, the rest of position above the relegation zone in the league was in limbo in term of motivation. Finished 11th was not much worse than say 4th.
Young SAF wouldn't have those years in the wilderness if he succeed himself in 2013. He finished his first full season in second place after all. And he is no fool that he realized he he had to built on successes. From that first FA Cup triumph, brought CWC, League Cup, PL... It took time because he had to build his foundation to support his later success back then. It's much difficult to solve problem with spending where there were more richer clubs, and attractive successful clubs to compete in transfer market. Bosman ruling was years in the future. 3 foreigner restriction. It's much more difficult to build up a winning squad. Had no luxury to bring Casemiro, Antony, Martinez.
Apple vs Orange
Of course our first trophy for 4 years is a sign of progress. Especially when coupled with the style of play and resilience improvements.
It's also his first season after taking over an absolute clusterfeck of a club.
Your say your never expect less from a United, where have you been since 2013. Your expectations are irrelevant when the club has been failing for over a decade.
It all depends on how he and the club build on this season. We have achieved similar level of success with Mou and Ole in the past but both went downhill badly from that.
ETH has achieved things faster with quick fixes in terms of loans and more counter attacking football than he would have liked but now he needs to now get his next set of signings absolutely right. Till then I will hold my judgement of him.
ETH has achieved things faster with quick fixes in terms of loans and more counter attacking football than he would have liked but now he needs to now get his next set of signings absolutely right. Till then I will hold my judgement of him.
For these reasons alone, I would give ETH manager of the season.
Even though I agree with you, you could turn this around say we should have given Ole more time. Or LvG. We were pretty dire under SAF for the most part of his start here. Awful at times.
That being said, he seems a good fit for us and im excited to see what he does in the summer
I have expected the club to be top-4 every season the last years and been disappointed several times. You might expect and be happy with less and think reaching top 4 is a fantastic achievement. It’s just you and me having different expectations on what ETH and United are capable of.
The longer this guy stays we will become better and better. The game VS Nottingham we start to see why he spent 80M on Antony. Dalot and AWB improved so much that both of them played so well at RB and LB. He can even make Maguire and Lindelof played very well. Something is clicking now.
He also shown he can deal with big egos by the way he handled CR. Also get rid of problematic character like Pogba, Lingard, Henderson and bring in top class mentality players like Martinez, Casemeiro, Eriksen, Antony and Malacia. I am impressed with his way of rebuild without compromising on results. The beautiful football also start to be more consistent.
Finish top 4 and get one more trophy in will be perfect 1st season.
He also shown he can deal with big egos by the way he handled CR. Also get rid of problematic character like Pogba, Lingard, Henderson and bring in top class mentality players like Martinez, Casemeiro, Eriksen, Antony and Malacia. I am impressed with his way of rebuild without compromising on results. The beautiful football also start to be more consistent.
Finish top 4 and get one more trophy in will be perfect 1st season.
Just seen that we’ve beaten last seasons points tally in 30 games with 59 points. Last season in 38 games we had 58 points.
Different times. No manager nowadays will stay in his job in PL era if he got such results. Managers now need to deliver and deliver fast. This is the reality so better to adapt to it rather than telling us to return to the 80s.
If he grinds out a boring 0-1 win at Anfield next season, I'd give him a contract extension just based on that. But seriously, as well as things have gone on some fronts, he has to put an end to these big away defeats next season.
The thing with Ten Hag is I think he genuinely studies his opponents first before having that ability to beat them.
It’s something I thought about his signings.
He could have gone for any player in the world - he got a well known world class player in Casemiro, 2 players that was his in Martinez & Anthony, a Dutch eredivise player in Malacia, a Dutch player in Weghorst and finally a loan on Sabitzer with the last 2 arguably being signings he made due to the Glazers not backing him.
He would know 5 of his 6 players quite well, being from the same league, world class or even his own country.
I just wonder if he studies his players and opponents first before signing or defeating them.
I can see for example him making more premier league signings this summer window because he has had time to see who is doing well and would be some premier league key players for us.
I can kind of see it with his ability to beat an opponent being an issue too until he kinda of really understands who he is facing.
It’s something I thought about his signings.
He could have gone for any player in the world - he got a well known world class player in Casemiro, 2 players that was his in Martinez & Anthony, a Dutch eredivise player in Malacia, a Dutch player in Weghorst and finally a loan on Sabitzer with the last 2 arguably being signings he made due to the Glazers not backing him.
He would know 5 of his 6 players quite well, being from the same league, world class or even his own country.
I just wonder if he studies his players and opponents first before signing or defeating them.
I can see for example him making more premier league signings this summer window because he has had time to see who is doing well and would be some premier league key players for us.
I can kind of see it with his ability to beat an opponent being an issue too until he kinda of really understands who he is facing.
Of course, I completely forgot about him. My brain hurts
I was just comparing his league positions if he only started in 2013 with the same positions he would have been sacked by the 3rd season, probably after the 2nd. The time when he started was less stressful, less money orientated, and as no one ever expected Utd to win the league he had more time. In fact Atkinson had better first division positions overall than Fergie and if he had have been manager now with his regular top 4 finishes (apart from his last season), he would have been the parasites dream manager
It maybe a less stressful job, but it's also much less attractive job. Liverpool was in different league achievement wise. Everton had more league title and was at the time actively among the title contenders. What does it mean? Failure was acceptable.
The culture was different. Ron Atkinson multiple 4th 3rd finish may look good in today settings, but in context of the time, it was not the same. It was a glorified Moyes Everton upper mid table finish (UEFA Cup region). When there is no reward for finish 3rd or 4th (the European football ban) then finishing just above relegation zone is almost the same. This complacent attitude is Ron Atkinson downfall because once his team slipped up, it fall down like a stone: lurking with relegation. Ron Atkinson managerial career pretty much confirmed this. Very little success in term of trophies, and as playing level being raised further and further he slipped away from once consistent high top table finish.
SAF first full season showed that he had potential push closer to a title (2nd place). Further change in the team would result in post surgery pain. The context of football at the time allowed SAF to keep the job and weather storm.
The point is as bad as we are post SAF, it's an easier job. It's a more stressful job because the demand, high standard, but it has the greater benefit, higher starting point (club status, money as one of the biggest club in the world), whereas back in the days, Arsenal, Leeds, Liverpool, Everton had the edge over us in attracting talents, let alone the big boys in Europe. The young SAF would have had a better foundation, starting point if he succeed post 2013. There should be no 11th finish. At worst is Klopp trophiless 4th place. The top 4 level in modern PL is on a much higher than Division one because the interest, money being poured into the league. Modern day Ron Atkinsons wouldn't be able achieve consistent top 4 finish with his 80s mindset. It requires someone who look to better himself every time the bar getting raised.
Totally agree with this.
Owners often pander to fans. Winning over the fans (or at least some portions) guarantees job security, even with a bad season or two. Klopp is no closer to losing his job in spite of missing out on Europe. Steve Cooper is still adored by Forest fans. Arsenal struck by Arteta through consecutive 8th place finishes.
Totally agree.
We may argue about some of his decisions or some results, or the comparison with other managers (that imo is quite pointless since it's basically impossible given the different circumstances etc) but one thing nobody could deny is all of our players have improved under ETH. Some massively. Or at least didn't get worse. And imo that's the most important thing. If our players keep getting better surely the performances keep getting better and eventually the results will be better.
I think we've been really unlucky with injuries and suspensions this season.
If there are any numbers on how long our first choice players like Martial, Rash, Eriksen, Casemiro, Varane & Martinez have been unavailable for selection, it'll give us a better idea on how well ETH has done. The guy had to literally sign 2 players on loan because he was give no money to spend in January. He's faced various adversities since he took over and he has us won us a trophy, has us at 3rd position and we still have a chance to win 2 more trophies.
For too long the phrase, "give him time" has been used and overused for managers who didn't show any signs that they're the right person for the job. Here we have someone who has actually improved us in multiple metrics and we're hell bent on talking about his flaws. Obviously, that's what the forum is for, but if we've had a manager since SAF who has actually earned and deserves our patience and respect, it has to be this man.
It's his first season in the PL, he's still trying to play with a keeper who can't pass the ball, a striker who cannot do anything really, defenders who can't bring the ball out, a young winger who is going through mental health trouble, another one who is also young and is playing his first season in the PL. Scott and Fred.
There is so much context to all this, so I can see why it can be annoying when someone here says, his subs have been bad, he got battered in too many games for my liking, our football isn't as good as Pep's. It obviously isn't, we're not there yet, but are we beyond where we really should've been this season? absolutely.
The guy has not right to deal with Ronaldo, raise the squad's morale, handle so many injuries and suspensions, keep the squad focused even when the ownership change circus is going on, because of which he got nothing to spend in Jan, manage an absolute misfit of a captain, not let the Greenwood issue become a distraction, manage Sancho's situation and still be where he is at this point in the season where we can still finish 3rd and win a cute little treble.
If there are any numbers on how long our first choice players like Martial, Rash, Eriksen, Casemiro, Varane & Martinez have been unavailable for selection, it'll give us a better idea on how well ETH has done. The guy had to literally sign 2 players on loan because he was give no money to spend in January. He's faced various adversities since he took over and he has us won us a trophy, has us at 3rd position and we still have a chance to win 2 more trophies.
For too long the phrase, "give him time" has been used and overused for managers who didn't show any signs that they're the right person for the job. Here we have someone who has actually improved us in multiple metrics and we're hell bent on talking about his flaws. Obviously, that's what the forum is for, but if we've had a manager since SAF who has actually earned and deserves our patience and respect, it has to be this man.
It's his first season in the PL, he's still trying to play with a keeper who can't pass the ball, a striker who cannot do anything really, defenders who can't bring the ball out, a young winger who is going through mental health trouble, another one who is also young and is playing his first season in the PL. Scott and Fred.
There is so much context to all this, so I can see why it can be annoying when someone here says, his subs have been bad, he got battered in too many games for my liking, our football isn't as good as Pep's. It obviously isn't, we're not there yet, but are we beyond where we really should've been this season? absolutely.
The guy has not right to deal with Ronaldo, raise the squad's morale, handle so many injuries and suspensions, keep the squad focused even when the ownership change circus is going on, because of which he got nothing to spend in Jan, manage an absolute misfit of a captain, not let the Greenwood issue become a distraction, manage Sancho's situation and still be where he is at this point in the season where we can still finish 3rd and win a cute little treble.
The guy has taken this thin squad, won a trophy and now fighting tooth and nail in three competitions. Imagine if he is backed in transfer what he can do to this great club!
Big team talk and changes needed. Shaw for Maguire. Rash for Sancho.
If he sends the same XI out in the second half, he's lost the plot.
He must be questioned about Maguire, its not only captain feck up fault. Its also ten Hag's, Maguire is shit, he's can't cope with pressure we've seen how he crumbles every time. I know both Varane, Lisandro and Shaw are injured. But Maguire can't play, in high pressure matches at least, its as simple as that.
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