100% this. I cant help but wonder to what extent SAF is advising the club to continue putting most of the decision power into the manager’s hands because “thats the united way.” He may not himself realize that it’s very difficult to replicate his genius. 99% of the time a good manager cannot also simultaneously perform the role of DOF...not in modern football. You need two specialists, one for training the players and another for recruiting them.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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100% this. I cant help but wonder to what extent SAF is advising the club to continue putting most of the decision power into the manager’s hands because “thats the united way.” He may not himself realize that it’s very difficult to replicate his genius. 99% of the time a good manager cannot also simultaneously perform the role of DOF...not in modern football. You need two specialists, one for training the players and another for recruiting them.
If I was ETH I would resign. Was promised the world and came to a garbage dump with liars running the show.
I'm not saying he's blameless or we should be happy, but it's a red herring.. We don't have anywhere near enough of a sample size to judge Ten Hag, and when the problems are the same as they've been for the last 3 managers, he's clearly not the common denominator.
I like Malacia. I really think he will do well for us for the next 10 yrs.
I remember RM's Perez saying that 1 in 3 transfers will flop -- so we will have to see if Martinez can get up to speed on things otherwise ETH will have lost quite a bit of credit in the bank with his boss.
ETH team selection was naïve. Should have dropped Maguire, Shaw, Fred and Bruno. Instead he made only 1 change to accommodate Ronaldo, and switched Eriksen as a DM or DLP, which wasn't going to work as he is playing out of his position. To me it seems like this team has some influential players, no matter how they perform, they just can't be dropped. For next game against Liverpool if he doesn't make bold team selection, he will lose and will be on the chopping board for get the sack. He did go after the players in the press conference after the match, now he has to back it up in practice and show the fans and those players abysmal performances won't be tolerated.
Will be interesting to see how ETH potentially adapts in the coming weeks. The issue with the Brighton and Brentford losses is that there's a blueprint both teams followed and that's pressing very aggressively from the front cutting off the play from defence to midfield.
United don't have the players in personnel to successfully play out the press. It reminds me to some extent when Arteta first joined Arsenal they were clearly targeted on this same thing leaking goals for fun. Combine this with the fact that the team seemingly is struggling for goals. Those issues alone require tactical changes, the team should be more conservative until the right individuals are purchased to expand the possession play more dynamically.
United don't have the players in personnel to successfully play out the press. It reminds me to some extent when Arteta first joined Arsenal they were clearly targeted on this same thing leaking goals for fun. Combine this with the fact that the team seemingly is struggling for goals. Those issues alone require tactical changes, the team should be more conservative until the right individuals are purchased to expand the possession play more dynamically.
I refuse to believe there are training sessions where Rashford, Bruno, Shaw, and Maguire continuously outperform others in their position. ETH is the third manager to talk about how great our players are in training.
Ronaldo, I'm not blaming him like many others, but it was obvious it was an unwanted transfer, as he demanded more from the team, team got divided into factions and eventually broke the team. ETH can fix it, but that would require tremendous afford from the CEO and DoF and the owners to sack 80% of the squad and start over.
Other than setup (3 at the back ). There is nothing Eth could have done today differently. The first two goals were individual mistakes. But what worries me is that he does not know what are the short comings of the team and does not much about bottom half of premier league teams.
for eg Martinez is a good CB option for top half of the teams because they don’t essentially play high ball. But bottom half of the teams always try to target the cbs and Gk and try to get a goal.
I don’t think Martinez did too bad in the match but with Varane we immediately became more comfortable.
We are very bad at playing from the back and we can’t understand why Eth does the same thing as his predecessors. We still have some good AMs so I would hope we move to 3 at back with Vdb, Bruno and Eriksen in middle and stop the goals at least.
for eg Martinez is a good CB option for top half of the teams because they don’t essentially play high ball. But bottom half of the teams always try to target the cbs and Gk and try to get a goal.
I don’t think Martinez did too bad in the match but with Varane we immediately became more comfortable.
We are very bad at playing from the back and we can’t understand why Eth does the same thing as his predecessors. We still have some good AMs so I would hope we move to 3 at back with Vdb, Bruno and Eriksen in middle and stop the goals at least.
I mean he did have extended talks where he wanted assurances before taking the role. So if these assurances aren't met, then what? Does he walk?
ETH did his due diligence before coming on board.
Would you advise doing that in our next game vs liverpool?
Walking 3 months into a 3+1 contract seems excessive. What assurance? That we get the right players according to his needs? The 2 players (Malacia and Martinez would not normally be in our radar) and then wanting Frenkie after a 3 months chase is on him.
Arnautović is his recommendation since he has played for ETH at Twente.
The only deal that Murtough wasn't supportive of was Antony at £70m.
I would say that Murtough & Arnold have been overly supportive of ETH if anything.
So what other 'assurances' was he demanding that has not been met besides Antony?
Eriksen is in no way to blame for the second goal.
De Gea's pass was suicidal. You don't pass it to a player who's so tightly marked that close to your own goal, unless you're begging for trouble. You just don't do that. Instead of playing long, DdG tried to play from the back (more than likely following the manager's instructions) and it backfired spectacularly.
By his own admission, DdG was at fault for the first two goals and props to him openly saying it. The way the whole team sank after the first goal is another matter though.
You do when he knows however bad his performances will be safe as houses
Indeed, the 3rd and 4th goals won't happen if we swap De Gea with half of goalkeepers in the PL. those PL goalkeepers would have safely claimed the high ball for the 3rd goal and swept the ball (like Raya did vs Rashford) for the 4th.
De Gea is a huge liability and we need to get rid of him, this summer , now.
ETH better adapt fast, maybe 3-5-2 maybe Bailly and Varane as CB. Buying a real RB, 2 CM and LW. Let's hope Glazer sell Utd before it is too late. Let's face it, Utd is just a championship team. It is hardly even guarantees to finish top half. Teams like Fulham, Saints, Leeds are all capable beating the crap of out us which is unimaginable even Ole was coaching.
Don't you mean RW
Why does he have to be so mediocre on mad money, got absolutely no chance whatsoever of getting shot of him
Malacia physically looks like a combative midfielder, far too short to be a CB in almost any English football division where most strikers are 6 foot plus.
Murtaugh was a Woodward/Glazer hire without the experience or gonads to force deals through against the hard nuts at other clubs. What’s the saying, doing the same thing consistently and expecting a different result is the definition of madness!
Welcome to the absolute proof of that, Man Utd under the Glazers regime .
Murtaugh was a Woodward/Glazer hire without the experience or gonads to force deals through against the hard nuts at other clubs. What’s the saying, doing the same thing consistently and expecting a different result is the definition of madness!
Welcome to the absolute proof of that, Man Utd under the Glazers regime .
He has as much blame, sanctioning a deal for a dwarf to play in the EPL, sticking to Dejong or nothing and focusing on players he only knows or coached in the past.
He has as much blame as those clowns at the helm of affairs.
I don't really buy that. I think that despite his obvious limitations as a ball playing GK, which is now a must in today's football, DdG is an excellent shot stopper (today's blunder notwithstanding), a professional and honestly tries his best. He's one of the few players in this team, imo, who seems to give a feck. Today was a terrible day at the office for him, amplified a hundred times by a team unable to react when they're down.
Brentford are known for their good use of set-pieces and there's not much for De Gea to do there. The pressure was piling up for a while and it only was a matter of time before they score. I also don't get why people are constantly pointing at Martinez's height. I feel that it is a cheap cop-out and I thought he rather played well. In that particular situation it doesn't matter if you're 5'7 or 6'9, he was walking backwards, in a disadvantageous situation.
There was no way for De Gea to stop the 4th goal, it was a magnificent counter-attack, Toney's assist was sublime and Mbeumo did the rest. You can make a case for Shaw's weak challenge but I wouldn't dwell on it. The damage was already done a long time ago.
Brentford and Frank came with a plan. Get in MU's face, pressing high and don't let them play from the back. MU not so much. After 40 minutes Brentford's job was more than done. I rate ten Hag highly but he's been naive today. If he doesn't quickly learn that the PL is unforgiving and he might have to compromise until he has the whole team playing to his tune, especially given the current state of affairs, he won't last long here.
He wanted to sign Marko Arnautovic..... let that sink in.
Don't feel sorry for ETH at all. He's a big part of the problem early season.
I think the next few weeks will tell whether ETH will make it here. If there are no more new incoming, it's a sign from the top that the hand-chosen signings are not working and he isn't going to be trusted to spend further (especially if he will not make it here as a manager.) I'm also curious to see whether he adjusts his philosophy for the players or continues to press forward with his vision on how he wants to play.
My worried is he will be stubborn and not adjust his tactics and by the world cup we are bringing in Big Sam to keep us up.
My worried is he will be stubborn and not adjust his tactics and by the world cup we are bringing in Big Sam to keep us up.
Difference is, Pep didn't have as bad a squad as we currently have mentally, and ETH has yet to prove himself in the same way Pep had already proven himself at Barca and Bayern.
However, just like Pep was criticized for not changing his tactics, the same is happening to ETH. ETH needs to stick to his principles. There is no way of knowing, being pragmatic will work out better when Ole and Ralf were already failed examples of that last season.
That is the major issue and we never fixed that over the past 5 years or so
I agree with your point about Pep. The difference is that Pep won the treble at Barcelona in his first season in 2008-2009, and then 2 more league titles and another Champions league before leaving 3 years later. Get's you a longer leash for what you want to build, than ETH who has been successful in the Eredivisie and had some decent CL sucess.
I want ETH to stay and be successful but I worry that he will not make it because frankly, the results are not there yet and I don't know when they will get better. As another poster (sorry I couldn't find the post) said, it screams like the whole Frank de Boer saga at Crystal Palace a few years ago.
Reason why I never viewed ETH like FdB is because ETH was far more impressive in the Eredivisie, and in the CL.
Here is the stat I looked up a while back. Goals per game of all the best scoring Dutch sides of the past 12 years ranked.
1. ETH 19' = 3.5 gpg
2. Jol 10' = 3.12 gpg
3. Advocaat 13' = 3.03 gpg
4. ETH 21' = 3 gpg
5. ETH 22' = 2.96 gpg
6. MVB 19' = 2.88 gpg
7. de Boer 12' = 2.74 gpg
8. ETH 20' = 2.72 gpg
9. Cocu 15'= 2.71 gpg
10. Keizer, ETH* 18' = 2.62 gpg (* ETH only had 2.19 gpg after he took over).
11. Cocu 16' = 2.59 gpg
12. Cocu 18' = 2.56 gpg
13. Rutten, Cocu 12' = 2.56 gpg
14. Schmidt 22' = 2.54 gpg
15. Bronckhorst 17' = 2.53 gpg
16. Adriaanse, Mcclaren 12' = 2.41 gpg
17. Rutten 11' = 2.32 gpg
Notice the goals de Boer (7th place) put up against ETH's Ajax sides. And he was there for like 6 years yet only put up 1 high goal scoring season. ETH's brand of football is much more attacking, and I feel like there should be more belief in his tactics to translate into success.
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Actually on this in his post match ETH said that they were told to play it long so it’s fully De Gea’s fault
I think the point is that we have to make the tactical progression either way. And these things will take time to drill after years of counter attack footy. So may as well have faith in the guy we thought was the best manager on the market and buckle up for the bumpy but hopefully eventually fruitful ride. If this time next season this team is adept at keep ball it will be worth it.
But it cannot be done with a poor midfield like ours. He will need some additions regardless.
People need to write off this season. We're not going to see if his ideas are working until around January.
The squad is nowhere close to being good enough and the Glazers won't spend enough to bring it up to standard in one window.
That means that we're stuck with all the players who aren't good enough for the next couple of transfer windows, mixed with the 2-3 new signings that need to adapt and some kids that need experience and may not make the grade.
Coaching will also take time to bed in new ideas effectively, and he's also got the cliques to deal with. It's a complete mess.
The squad is nowhere close to being good enough and the Glazers won't spend enough to bring it up to standard in one window.
That means that we're stuck with all the players who aren't good enough for the next couple of transfer windows, mixed with the 2-3 new signings that need to adapt and some kids that need experience and may not make the grade.
Coaching will also take time to bed in new ideas effectively, and he's also got the cliques to deal with. It's a complete mess.
Fair Stats. I think that ETH will need to adjust his approach though. Watching old highlights of his Ajax teams, they were very open and he just doesn't have the defenders that can defend 2v2 & 3v3 situations right now.
You really think you can just put a player up for sale and that's all there is to it?
Stupidly high wages and over inflated prices will soon put a stop to that and that isn't Ten Hag's fault.
Edit - my bad just woken up and not really read properly.
Agreed, it's on the board,complete w*nkers,it won't matter who leads the team if those above him are absolutely clueless.
Agreed. This season was already written off before it even started. So many issues. As long as we don't get relegated imo he should have our full support. Let's see how it'd go with this approach. For the past few years it's clear the ad hoc one doesn't work.
But realistically tbh I don't think he'd get that kind of support from both our board and fans. So imo he'd better get some results or he won't last very long here.
I do hope we stick by this manager and not these untrustworthy not good enough losers we have as players. This is going to be a rough season, but I want him to survive, feck backing this squad, get them out.
ETH did his due diligence before coming on board.
Yes I’m of course exaggerating and he is not going to resign. We don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes and he may the one saying hold everything up and we push for FDJ. My point is that this is a new low and we are only going to get worse and ETH before he himself gets caught in the vortex of individual blame, needs to exact whatever leverage he has. Glazers now realise they have no choice but to back the recruitment process.
This is all part of Arnold's Grand Plan. The initial bad results will make any future victory even sweeter.
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