Recency Bias.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Recency Bias.
Jurgen Klopp did the domestic double over Heynckes' Bayern.
Scored 16 last year… Palace were not exactly flying before last season, seems like Glasner has unlocked his potential.
Hojlund has hardly been prolific even for his previous teams either. Don’t really see him as a clearly better player than Mateta.
Dread it, run from it, destiny still arrives.
Mateta is 6 years older. At 20 he scored 20 goals Ligue 2 and 14 goals in Ligue 1, then scored 23 goals over the next 5 seasons until last season where he hit 19. Hojlund scored 3 less.
Bit of a stretch to say he's better than Hojlund.
Let's not let facts get in the way of a good story now, Iker.
When people talk about Heynckes' Bayern they usually mean the treble winners of 2012/13 and rarely think of the season before.
Klopp had no answer to what Heynckes built in response to Dortmund's double and what Pep just kept running.
So in that sense both statements are true, Klopp only could beat early Heynckes before his team was completed.
Only one statement is true.
The other statement is a valid point that has been stretched too far and thus become inaccurate.
I wish we had 10 good games.
Really not much between ours and Palace's first XI currently.
Again, what's with you and logic. Thinking words have meanings.
Hojkund has the potential to become better but Mateta is better now.
It’s actually worse than inaccurate, it’s “not even wrong” as Pauli would have said.
It’s an unfalsifiable statement about an irrelevant point to the discussion. Klopp’s achievements at Dortmund where he won back-to-back titles in a top five league against a bigger club with vastly greater resources and pulling power (besides cup wins and a CL Final) are simply not matched by ETH’s tenure at Ajax.
As in, I don’t think even ten Haag himself would claim that.
Did any transfers between those two clubs follow Dortmund’s second title?
Don't think so. Götze and Lewandowski played under Pep.
Dominating shots/chances created etc.
And if we thrash them… people need to drop it. ETH is here next season.. end of story
What are you basing your claim it was their 'most important match of the season' on? Furthermore, I fail to see how losing a single match is collapsing. Did City collapse because they bottled it against Madrid? They still had a very good season regardless of whether they lost a CL game or not.
Why does it matter if its weaker or not when we are talking about clubs in the same league? How does the Eredevisie being weaker than Bundesliga have any relevance here? Second, Klopp didn't have to deal with Bayern poaching his best players until after Heynckes left after he won the treble and completely dominated the league. He still had virtually all of his best players in the 2012/2013 season. Third, you're wrong. We had less points total in the Ole/Rangnick season with 58. And finally looking at pure numbers is just so narrow-minded. I don't want to go over this again, wasted enough time already as is on this, but if we just go by numbers and such then I guess our 2013 team with Tom Cleverley and Antonio Valencia were way better than our treble team given it has:
- More points
- Less draws
- More wins
Can you dig up a single Caf post (from someone who's not an opposition fan) saying they'd like us to fail next season so ETH will be sacked? I don't think you can.
And just to clarify, "I think we'll have a poor season" is not the same as "I hope we have a poor season".
Not really.
Gotze, Lewandowski and Hummels all played under Klopp and he lost them all to Bayern after he won back to back league titles.
Nice deflection there mate. I asked you about Rashford, and you dodge the question and ask about Moyes or Solskjaer.(same people who hired Solari, Luxemburgo, Quieroz,Lopetegui, etc )
So I'll ask you one more time. What do you think would have happened to Rashford if he played for Liverpool under Klopp, City under Pep, or Real Madrid?
Do you thin Klopp would tolerate his antics? How about Pep? Or SAF? Any elite manager for that matter?
Let's be real, we've had plenty of mediocre players throught the years. Either players who were not good enough, or just had a good attitude.
And unlike you, I won't dodge the question. Who are the problem players?
When ETH took over we had the following problem players:
DDG- a goalkeeper on obscene wages just happy to collect a paycheck.
Henderson - a GK who had ambitions to be our No.1, but was forcefully benched and refused an exit. By all reports one of the leakers on our team.
Bailly - not happy with his situation.
Pogba - the less said the better.
Lingard - same as Pogba
Rashford - only puts in an effor when he feels like it, his contract is up for renewal or his starting place is in imminent danger.
Martial - the moder day Le Sulk.
Sancho - do I need even need to explain this one?
Now these were the players that were still here when ETH took the job. None of them were the right fit either mentally or ability wise for our club.
Out of all these players we were left with Rashford, Martial, Sancho at the start of the season.
This season Casemiro also dropped his performance level and you could clearly see that he wasn't happy. Mind you, this is a guy past his prime, on obscene wages who can't keep up with the PL anymore. I could also add Varane to this list, because he falls in the same category as Casemiro on some of these parameters.
So currently we are in a unique position where we can get rid of all the disgruntled/lazy players in 1 quick swoop. But we still have the Rashford dilema, since he is the last one of the old guard that is still here.
Looking at the way ETH is building United, you can clearly see that he is focusing on players with a very good attitude and a very good workrate. You can blame ETH for picking players who aren't good enough ability wise for United, but you can't blame him for signing prim donnas. Malacia, Eriksen, Hojlund, Onana, Martinez, Mount fall into that category. You can also add Mainoo and Garnacho who are running their socks of for our team currently.
People like Rashford with his current attitude don't fit into this team. If INEOS are as serious as they say about getting us to the top, then they would have a conversation with Rashford informing him that he has to find a club by the end of the transfer window, or he is free to train with the reserves until his contract expires.
Kambwala too. Shame Forson left, ETH seemed to rate him.
If you honestly don’t understand why winning a weaker league with the biggest club in that league (by a distance) is relevant to the discussion… actually I don’t know how to finish that sentence because you do know. You’re just pretending you don’t for reasons unknown.
There’s a reason SAF was lauded for winning the SPL with Aberdeen, whereas Brendan Rogers’ two consecutive domestic trebles are often forgotten (and he himself turned his back on the chance to complete the Treble Treble to take a job at a struggling Leicester). Because Scotland have a weak league and winning trophies with the biggest team in the league doesn’t count for all that much.
Klopp’s brilliant work with Liverpool was not a surprise for many because he had already proven himself to be one of the world’s best Managers. ETH doesn’t have remotely the same credit in the bank because he’s achieved relatively little in football in comparison to magnitude of football club he’s taken over. His biggest success is lowering expectations to such a point that there are now limitless excuses for both poor performances and results. It’s mind-boggling.
I don't think we've had 10 good games since Jan 1st 2023.
We haven't.
I’m taking 16 goals over 10 goals.
Hojlund scored 16 in his first season at Utd, with very little service and had one of the best conversion rates in the league.
Mateta scored 19 in all comps, up until January he scored 5 goals, including 3 against Plymouth. 10 of those 16 league goals came in his last 8 games and 3 of those came against a Villa side who were already on the beach.
He really isn't a better player.
No. Mainoo would've hapenned regardless who was our manager.
Just imagine his first 5 games were: Everton away, Galatasaray away, Newcastle away, Bayern at home, and Liverpool away. ETH literally threw Mainoo out there because he was just so good.
Mainoo talents happen rarely, ETH was just lucky it happened to him.
I agree. Hopefully we can scrape 8th spot somehow next season. I know it's a huge task but Ten Hag has already shown last season he can take us higher than we thought we will end up.
Amad and Kambwala have already shown enough in the last season that I really hope they will get regular chances (cup games, as subs, during injuries etc.) in the coming season. It will be extremely disappointing if that is not a foregone conclusion.
Additionally, I am really hoping to see Ten hag introduce more youth, like Harry Amass and Shea Lacey this year. Luke Shaw has spoken very highly of Amass, so that's interesting
No deflection at all, the answer to my question was the also the answer to your question.
The same thing that would have happened to Ten Hag or Ole.
Hired and fired in a season or so, some less. No one gets 2-3 years at Real unless they're successful.
It seems like me you don't actually think there is a culture problem at all, you think it basically all boils down to Rashford.
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It may be time to take off the diapers. A tad naive to think that ETH will be here all season. The "story" is that INEOS interviewed other managers before decidinto g not sack ETH, and to the best of my knowledge ETH's contract has not been extended. He is, if media reports are to be believed, entering into the final year of his contract. A bad run of form, after the disastrous season we all just endured, would not be a good thing for the club, the players or the manager.
I happen to believe it the was prudent decision to not sack ETH, but it's not at all irrational to believe that if the performance level of the squad in 23/24 persists into 24/25 that INEOS will act swiftly. Very swiftly.
The bigger United channels are pro ETH but believe me there are a few fairly big ones who are massively ETH out. Have a look at planetfaz (yes that’s faz from united stand). He’s terrible but you get the narrative.
It’s a very toxic place.
I’m talking about people I know in person. I can categorically say a few out there genuinely want ETH to flop. I’m very pro ETH so I have these arguments on a regular basis.
Yeah okay. Let me rephrase then: I havent seen anyone, who isnt a complete and utter tool, say that they want ETH to fail
Yet you still haven't answered my question: what would happen to Rashford if he played for Real Madrid.
And the reason I say you are deflecting is because Real is just one of the clubs I listed. Liverpool was another club I brought up.
Which begs the follow up question:
What would happen to Rashford if he played for Liverpool? Would Klopp tolerate his attitude and workrate? Or how about Pep at Man City?
Go on mate. We are talking about Rashford here, not Ten Hag or Ole.
You asked me to list players which are part of the problem, and I did. And the best answer you can give me is "You're singling out Rashford"
No mate: Martial, Casemiro, Sancho, Rashford and Varane. All part of our squad this season. All on insane wages. All believing that their place is assured and there is no need to fight for it. All sulk once they are dropped from the starting XI. But apparently I'm only singling out Rashford. Mind you, only Martial and Varane have left. The others are still here.
And the point is, we're not Real Madrid are we now? And if SAF managed Real, he'd be sacked around 2004/2005 for being trophyles and finishing 3rd on a couple of occasion. They did sack Del Bosque not long after winning the CL and basically became utter clowns in Europe after that, being dumped out by Lyon and Pool putting 4 past them in the knock out rounds. All despite having the Galacticos era and all of that.
Took a certain Prime Mourinho to knock some winning mentality back into that team and for them to go past 1/8 stage of the CL. Even the resident Real Madrid fans have been saying this. Couple with the fact that Perez is the SAF equivalent of football operations, hence they can afford to sack a manager every season and still be successful. When we look at our club hierarcy, who did we have on our board that was of similar statue to Perez? Woodward? Arnold? Murtough? Judge?
Well, yeah they all left for Bayern. Eventually. In three different transfer windows. And Klopp wasn't even there when Hummels left.
Your question seemed to suggest that you were talking about transfers between those two clubs immediately following Dortmund’s second title as the context was Klopp vs Heynckes.
Let it go, mate. He's clearly a troll or new to club football.
This is a nonsense argument I legitimately don't get. Bayern are much more dominant in their league even prior to Heynckes than Ajax are in theirs. They didn't win the league for years prior to ETH and they haven't won it since. Your logic doesn't work on any level. We're not comparing Ajax vs Dortmund here, we're comparing Ajax with the rest of the clubs in their OWN league.
But this is where your argument doesn't make a lick of sense. SAF's greatest accomplishment is probably Aberdeen and it is in an even weaker league than the Eredevisie. The thing is this example also doesn't work when compared to ETH because Celtic always wins their league, prior or after Brendan. They are by far the most accomplished team in Scotland and in some distance in are Rangers. They won 10 leagues in 16 years while Ajax only won 6 in 19. If ETH's accomplishments are so irrelevant, why was he the most sought out manager when we got him?
There are Klopp and ETH threads in this forum, are they not? I'm sure you can check them out.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/jurgen-klopp-sack-watch.410588/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/erik-ten-hag-manchester-united-manager.470032/
Here's two. Need any more to see it isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be? I feel like I'm living in looney tunes. Klopp was definitely rated highly, but was coming off from a pretty bad season and many people were doubtful of him making the big jump to the PL. In the same vein Erik Ten Hag was widely regarded as our best option by far and one of the most highly sought out managers. I remember him being linked with almost all major clubs and touted as the next Guardiola. So the notion he achieved 'relatively little' is mind-boggling to me. I see you're a user from 2014, so you should know this but then again you're also an Arsenal fan so might not have paid much attention to that, as well. But I assure you ETH was very, very highly rated when he first came for his work at both Utrecht and Ajax. Not only simply winning trophies but the style of football he practiced. Sure, we had a shit season, everyone here can agree with that, but that doesn't immediately discard all his previous work or completely rewrites history.
Right, so if there is nothing between the first 11? lets see who finishes above who the coming season.
Similar 11 strength and we have a worse coach right?
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