The Any Given Sunday speech from Al Pacino is amazing.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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I watched Poch's Chelsea maybe five or six times and in both times you could see that if they had a decent striker they would have won more matches and probably finished in the top four. So the last time Poch stabilized a club and made them competitive was the just ended season.
With regards to us, if you didn't look at the financials - the wages and fees we are paying - yes choosing Cups over top 4 would make sense. But we have the most expensive squad in the league, the football isn't even entertaining and there is no reason we shouldn't be doing both - succeed in the Cups and perform strongly in the league. Why should we limit ourselves? For the pleasure of having Ten Hag manage us?
Ten Hag is not a victim in this because he is still.the guy who chose to spend a whole summer chasing a player who didnt want to come here whilst not doing any other business, he is still the guy who railroaded the Antony signing, he is still the guy who wanted Mount here to come and play that atrocious style, he is still the guy that got rid of DDG to spend 48m on a kepper who is really not an improvement and he is still the guy who spent 90% of the season persisting with a style that was making us open and weak.
It wasn't just injuries, it was decisions and choices made in the summer that meant that when the injuries came we had no depth because we spent outrageous amounts of money bringing in his choices who didn't perform but left us too broke to buy needed reinforcements for depth.
I've hated this season, but it has been well documented what Ten Hag was attempting to do. It just became clear that he didn't have the players to do it, and wasn't willing to change as he wanted to instill his style on the players that could play it.
The idea was to press high and condense the play into the opponents half. With all players fit and playing against weaker sides it would look something like the below...
Rashford Hojlund Garnacho
Mount Fernandes
Shaw Mainoo
Martinez Varane Dalot
Onana
You obviously swap Shaw and Dalot depending on which side the ball is on, but it's taken from the Pep/Arteta mold of 22/23.
That was always going to be a struggle with no left back and the defence decimated and Mainoo out for the start of the season, plus an all time stinker from Rashford.
The result was we were ripped apart time and again, so eventually we kept the attacking structure, but dropped our defensive line deep leaving a massive hole in midfield. This is what resulted in the constant end to end basketball games we watched, and the 10s of shots against every game. The supposed idea was that the forwards were still learning the style, and that when the defence came back we could go back to the original plan.
It's only really since the Arsenal game that Ten Hag went into full preservation mode and shut up shop working on a plan for the City game.
The reason I want him to go is that I think his original plan is flawed due to our inability to recycle possession when we gain it, which comes from your key players all thriving in more counter attacking set ups.
Very quality post. Not much to add from my side except that I think INEOS does not believe in the almighty manager concept so in the future no manager can dictate the transfer policy the way Ten Hag did. Our transfers under him has been the worst we ever had since SAF retirement, it is subjective, emotional when he pushed us to buy garbages for outragious fees. INEOS is going to adopt the Real model from now on I think. We will buy and maintain a good squad of players, the manager shouldn't be a dictator while the players will need to have discipline and salary based on market or else we'll sell your ass.
Its interesting to me that a team that finished 3 points ahead of us and not winning anything is being labelled as competitive. I thought competitive meant winning trophies, challenging for titles, PL, CL. '
You are talking about limiting us under Ten Hag but saying Poch can stabilise and be competitive finishing 6th with no trophy. I rather finish 8th and win a trophy all day long over being competitive and finishing 6th with nothing to show for.
Yes, Ten Hag is not very good at talent ID. The point is I can understand what he can't do. Its funny that fans like you blame the manager everytime. If you look back at out last 12 years, which signing has worked out? We spent money on loads of players, I didnt realise it was Ten Hag, Ole, Jose, LVG who went into negotiations for players.
You have opened my eyes today, managers lead negotiations and being 6th with no trophy is competitive.
Newcastle got the same points as us, Chelsea were awful until they beat us at the bridge and Brighton's season was not good either.... Why did they have better seasons again?
The flip side of this is that due to injuries, he has had to adapt his players available to a tactic to stay competitive with the injuries weve had. In doing so this may have curtailed any style that he wants to impose. The teams you've mentioned have all stuck to thier principles but haven't been successful in doing so. I'd give him a bit of credit for being able to adapt. Ultimately, I agree and I'd rather he did have a discernable style regardless of players available.
Really?
I wont go all the way back but lets see.
Ole - Bruno, Ighalo, Cavani, James, AWB, Maguire, Telles, Donny, Pellestri, Diallo, Ronaldo, Sancho, Varane
ETH - Malacia, Licha, Casemiro, Antony, Onana, Hojlund, Ambrat, Mount
I think you will realise its a theme, a consistent theme regardless of the manager, Manchester United are very bad at transfers.
Also, I am really surprised people believe Poch finishing 6th with no trophy is competitive but Ten Hag 8th and trophy is really bad.
I am sure that if you searched his press conferences you will hear him say it himself. In fact I am certain that control over recruitment was a prerequisite to him signing and now because it's gone tits up you want to whitewash history, no not having that mate. His calls on recruitment have failed and he takes the blame.
Pochettino took Chelsea from tenth or twelveth to 6th, that's a massive improvement whilst Ten Hag took us from 3rd to 8th that's a massive regression. Chelsea botched their rebuild resulting in an inexperienced and unbalanced squad, Tan Hag had veto power on recruitment so it could be argued Ten Hag had it easy.
It feels like you have trouble reading. Who wants to re-write history, look on my previous post to you.. Yes, Ten Hag is not very good at talent ID. I have agreed that he is bad at transfers, never claimed he is amazing.
Its funny you look at Poch taking 12th to 6th = making them competitive.. you forget Ten Hag also took us from 6th to 3rd?
Chelsea have an unbalanced squad? They have 2/3 players in each position, what area of Chelsea's squad do you think is unbalanced?
Also, taking about inexperience, why is it that we have the most minutes for U21 this season?
I actually enjoys Chelsea's football more than ours this season, even though I hate them as a club more than City. What the other poster meant is there is a hope of Chelsea to improve next season based on the current squad that Poch built, not about who has better result, as both are bad.
We should not be so proud for qualifying Europa, a domestic cup is nice but people will soon forget this once we continue to see the horrible football next season based on what we have seen already near the end.
I've already told you that Poch averaged 2 points per game from 19 in the 2nd half of the season. I'd say that's stabilising a club and making them competitive. They'd only lost one PL game in 15. With an unbeaten streak of 8 games and then 6 games. (Ten Hags longest unbeaten run in the PL is 6 games, over two seasons).
I don't question those cup wins no. The difference is that we were playing well throughout the season in those years. Excellent football and won trophies. We've struggled for form since the League Cup win. Losing games on a regular basis and being humbled by some very ordinary teams.
I would side on being entertained with decent football most weeks over winning a domestic cup and playing tumescent football every week. But each to their own.
This is a good point. It also feels weird to me that if there is a review ongoing he doesn’t seem to be part of it. Just read newd from Frankfurt who also had an underwhelming season and they just completed their seasob review, DOF and manager together and now came out with a statement that they agree on reasons why it wasn't a great season, agree on how to fix the mistakes next season and therefore go on together. Nothing like that appears to happen at United
So let me get this straight.. you prefer finishing 6th and watching good football over 8th and a trophy?
Let me get this cleared up, I did not enjoy this season, it was terrible.
I did enjoy winning the FA cup, I wont lie..
I know you dont enjoy winning cups, prefer to be playing good football and playing Europa conference because you are raving about Chelsea but they got Europa conference.
But I don't see what has massively shifted since having a good game against city. If you want him gone because the season was bad that hasn't really changed.
We have generally been good against high lines over the last 5 years albeit less so under ten hag but we won't play against them very often.
Winning the fa Cup is great but in the two major competitions we have been terrible and our performance levels have been consistently poor
I also genuinely don't believe it would have taken a football genius to have improved our league performance this season just basic competence look realising our crazy tactics were leaving us wide open and adjusting early jn the season
Where did I say that? Please reply based on what you read.
So we can judge a team based on 19 games, I can find you a 19 game sequence where Ten Hag has averaged 2 points per game too.
So you would side by being entertained finishing 6th winning nothing over finishing 8th and a trophy?
I actually enjoys Chelsea's football more than ours this season.
Chelsea finished 6th no trophy. Manutd finished 8th with a trophy.
I'm not saying Chelsea played entertaining football for the entire season though am I? I would however favour being in Arsenals position over our season.
I don't get any joy watching us play terrible football for 8 months. I can probably list the amount of decent games we've had this season on one hand. I mean games we've played well for longer than 45 minutes. That's just depressing.
Exactly right. Both results are bad, a domestic cup and finish 8 versus finish 6. Nothing to write home about given a club of our statue, and some might say Chelsea is a smaller club.
What I agree with the other poster is I can see Chelsea will likely improve next season based on their trajectory but I am not so sure about ours. INEOS needs to do one hell of a job to turn things around in this summer if they can revert the horrible football that we played this season.
Well why mention Chelsea then? I would agree with you in respects to Arsenal, they played the best football.
The problem I had is you and the other poster saying you prefer Chelsea's football when it wasn't even that great.
Now if you are talking about Arsenal, its a different thing, they played the best football IMO in the PL all season. You can watch 2/3 games and straight away realise they are a very very good team.
Forget the goals and everything for one bit, the fact that in 90 mins these teams City, Arsenal Liverpool (2019) dont let the opponents in their half, let alone near their box, shows the quality. Thats where I would like to see United, dominating games on and off the ball. That is they type of football I think wins PL and shows consistency.
Simple question for INEOS….
Does winning the FA cup make up for Utd’s worst ever Premier League season?
Does winning the FA cup make up for Utd’s worst ever Premier League season?
I like torturing myself. So i would like to see how he does when he is kept a million miles away from transfers. Let him just be a coach.
I mentioned Chelsea because we've been having a conversation about Pochettino as I initially said he'd be a decent replacement. I still stand by that too, he'd improve the team and get us more organised and be more consistent (perhaps at the cost of silverware). Whereas with Ten Hag I don't think we'll ever see true consistency. He simply loses far too many games, it was a problem last season too hence why his unbeaten run record is so horrendously low. I don't think next season can be as bad as this season, I truly hope not. But we aren't going to suddenly transition into a top team.
I wonder how much patience and how much money we throw at the Ten Hag project before everyone comes to the conclusion that he's simply a bit naff. Do we keep sticking with him if he keeps delivering a domestic trophy despite us being shit in Europe and the League? I'm curious to know if that would be acceptable for United fans these days.
We only lost 3 more games than Arsenal did last season.
I’m going to be concerned if a decision hasn’t been made by Monday.
I respect your view but I feel we wont be that much better with Poch in charge.
The thing is, we need to change how we recruit, we need to let our structure buy and negotiate for players that are right for the club not the manager.
We also know Ten Hag has not had his first 11 for more than 2 games in a row. So to get consistency, you also need a consistent playing 11. Look at Chelsea, the reason they looked better, they had a more consistent 11.
Personally, due to the alternatives which I dont rate, I would give Ten Hag to die on his sword, he has to challenge next season.
The team didn’t look well coached all season though.
He will do a Pogba and take a 3 month long holiday so that nobody can contact him
Not that I agree but I reckon they dump him towards the end of his two week holiday so a week today-ish.
Definitely he was at fault for how easy it was to pass through our midfield.
It's more that Chelsea were getting better as the season wore on, with a significantly more attractive playstyle that is easier to see how it develops into further success.
Meanwhile we got worse in the second half of the season as ETH got more time to coach the players (and during a time that we had most of our injured players return), with a chaotic playstyle that doesn't make sense and seems a long way from anything that could see success. It's almost certain that the only reason we had a decent end to the season was because in the last four matches ETH finally abandoned the playstyle that he'd been insisting on for the previous 50 matches. Before that we were well on track for our worst ever season in PL history (it arguably still was our worst).
Based on how this season went, if you had to pick which of the two teams would be better next season I'd say Chelsea were certainly the favourites. They already finished above us and were trending upwards while we were trending downwards.
Why is that?
Think about this as if you were working for a company. You run your own division or department, but you don't have any say in what people are on your team. The company just throws people at you to manage. Would you feel that was a great setup?
Regardless of what Ten Hag did, I don't think Poch is a massive upgrade on him if at all an upgrade.
People talk about Chelsea but they also went to Arsenal and got battered closer to the end of the season.
I totally get that this chaotic style is not something we should ever entertain, you cannot win a league with that style, its impossible to win a title now without being controlled in all facets of the game.
What I do know is that Ten Hag in a final can set up tactically and beat the best, there is evidence of it whilst Poch lost against kids.
It wouldn't be a great set up. But in this instance you have proved to the company that you are poor at recruiting team members.
So you are a poor at hiring, solution should be for the company to throw hires at you to manage? Or could you maybe create a system that takes everything into account, you are supported and it helps you find a solution for the talent you need?
It's not an either-or. For obvious reasons, the manager should feel confident in the talent suggested to him. For him to feel confident, the system needs to be strong. Complicated but yet simple.
100%.
That's a fair last paragraph. The problem I have is that I have zero confidence that Ten Hag can get us consistent through a long period of time. So ultimately we're just wasting time and resources on a busted flush. I will say that whoever has been in charge of our Academy revival deserves praise. That's been on a steady upward trend for the past 4/5 years.
Regarding Chelsea, They did get battered by Arsenal. But that was their only loss in like 15 PL games. They also stumbled a little bit with a few draws, the one at home to Burnley in particular was very bad. It wasn't all brilliant but it was significantly better than they had been achieving and were being pulled out of their rut. I wasn't even a fan of Pochettino but I think we're past the point of being fussy, we need a Manager to come in and improve the style and consistency.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in meetings right now as clearly there's some disagreement on where the club should be heading otherwise Ineos would have made a statement one way or the other. Stalling the decision benefits nobody as Manager replacements can move on and it disrupts any future planning for pre season. At this point a decision needs to be made.
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