Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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I’m not going to use this as a stick to beat ETH with in regards to the whole argument on here of whether he has or hasn’t been responsible for a lot of our transfers since joining but this is an interview he did where he says he has control over transfers,

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/sto...g-says-taken-man-united-job-control-transfers

I’ve heard from a few people that the reason De Zerbi fell out with Brighton was he wanted control over transfers rather than the structure and him continuing to coach, ETH had a structure above him with VDS and Overmars and maybe like De Zerbi now ETH had enough of that structure and wanted more control which United gave him and it’s been shown that he shouldn’t have been given that control but then at the same time we had no real structure either.

It’s very clear that Antony, Onana, Martinez, Casemiro, Mount, Malacia, Eriksen, Hojlund, Amrabat and Weghorst were all ETH signings and in a lot of those cases we overpaid because ETH wanted them so much. Of that group you’d say Martinez outside of the injury has been a success, Hojlund has potential to be a success and last season Casemiro and Eriksen did well but the others outside of the last couple of games for Amrabat have been disasters.

I also hate agreeing with Shearer as he’s a massive cnut but he was right in saying where was the cup final performance all through the season ? Injuries can’t constantly be used as the majority of the team that played on Saturday have been there and it was only Varane and Martinez that was different, the tactical set up could have been similar as should the intensity from the players but ETH much like with his transfers refuses to change things tactically unless absolutely forced.

I wanted ETH when he was at Ajax and really believed he’d be the best we’d had post Sir Alex but I was very wrong as he’s been exposed on numerous occasions but managers at much smaller clubs with much smaller resources. I also don’t believe ETH will want to take a step back and go from being manager with his own tactics and control over transfers to being head coach and being told how we play going forward and having the majority of recruitment done for him so I think it’s best for both sides to part on great terms and on a massive high before it ends badly a few months into next season and we have to write another season off.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
In short, after 2 years and 400M, we are nowhere near developing the style of play we want. We also broke all unwanted records for losses, chances against us, negative GD and whatnot. He has to go.
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The problem is whatever 'style' EtH is providing has led to trophies across two seasons. Any new manager could provide a brilliant, innovative style of sumptuous passing but deliver nothing.

This is Ineos' real problem:

How does their guy ensure trophies continue?

I do fear Ineos will appeal for their appointment to be given time, but that really won't wash if they sack a trophy winning manager who succeeded from the off.

Also, if their chosen boss fails, will there be any repercussions at an executive level, or will they be paying themselves millions to fail upwards?

There is a serious danger of us talking ourselves into an Arsene Wenger phase of pretty-passing and 'trophy for fourth'.

Let's see.
 
It’s little short of a disgrace the way Ineos have treated EtH these last few days, he needs immediate clarification. Less we forget he’s managed to win two trophies in two seasons and in doing so secured our place in Europe ahead of Newcastle and Chelsea. Meanwhile Arsenal have still yet to win anything and Liverpool have only won the League Cup. So it puts it into perspective when you consider the huge number of injuries with no reinforcements brought in during the January transfer window.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
In short, after 2 years and 400M, we are nowhere near developing the style of play we want. We also broke all unwanted records for losses, chances against us, negative GD and whatnot. He has to go.
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The injuries excuse is also particularly hollow in a season where loads of teams were affected by them. Newcastle and Chelsea were just as badly affected and both of them managed to finish above us. Chelsea are also held up as a club who have no idea what they're doing, yet many fans are happy to accept finishing below them in the league table.

We've been thrashed by so many average teams and regularly outplayed by many worse than that. We finished bottom of our Champions League group in meek fashion against teams like Copenhagen and Galatasaray who are Europa League standard. I just can't believe one result overrides all of that. Hopefully the directors have more sense than our fans.
 
Kirk lazarus said:
It's not nonsense at all. He was very close to the sack . The achievements in Scotland were very good . I'm fully aware of them , I remember them . Nobody down here was heralding him a great back then .. great was a very small group , jock stein , sir Matt , shankly , & some at the time would put Clough and paisley ., .... He wasn't in that bracket at that time . He went on to be , and he actually went beyond .

I don't know what is so hard to grasp about that .
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Thanks for the context and the reminder. Good post.
 
davidmichael said:
I’m not going to use this as a stick to beat ETH with in regards to the whole argument on here of whether he has or hasn’t been responsible for a lot of our transfers since joining but this is an interview he did where he says he has control over transfers,

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/sto...g-says-taken-man-united-job-control-transfers

I’ve heard from a few people that the reason De Zerbi fell out with Brighton was he wanted control over transfers rather than the structure and him continuing to coach, ETH had a structure above him with VDS and Overmars and maybe like De Zerbi now ETH had enough of that structure and wanted more control which United gave him and it’s been shown that he shouldn’t have been given that control but then at the same time we had no real structure either.

It’s very clear that Antony, Onana, Martinez, Casemiro, Mount, Malacia, Eriksen, Hojlund, Amrabat and Weghorst were all ETH signings and in a lot of those cases we overpaid because ETH wanted them so much. Of that group you’d say Martinez outside of the injury has been a success, Hojlund has potential to be a success and last season Casemiro and Eriksen did well but the others outside of the last couple of games for Amrabat have been disasters.

I also hate agreeing with Shearer as he’s a massive cnut but he was right in saying where was the cup final performance all through the season ? Injuries can’t constantly be used as the majority of the team that played on Saturday have been there and it was only Varane and Martinez that was different, the tactical set up could have been similar as should the intensity from the players but ETH much like with his transfers refuses to change things tactically unless absolutely forced.

I wanted ETH when he was at Ajax and really believed he’d be the best we’d had post Sir Alex but I was very wrong as he’s been exposed on numerous occasions but managers at much smaller clubs with much smaller resources. I also don’t believe ETH will want to take a step back and go from being manager with his own tactics and control over transfers to being head coach and being told how we play going forward and having the majority of recruitment done for him so I think it’s best for both sides to part on great terms and on a massive high before it ends badly a few months into next season and we have to write another season off.
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It still needs context in terms of what type of control we're talking about it. Is it about being able to veto transfers if the club wants to bring in someone you don't want, is it about being able to fully determine who the player should go after ala how Fergie handled things. There's a bit of a difference between the two. Also: He's not responsible for negotiations and again we need context.

Being without key players has consequences. Playing pretty much the entire season without a proper left fullback has detrimental consequences. Martinez started the season injured, never looked right from the start, he's absolutely crucial to the way we want to play because of his ability to be aggressive, break the oppositions play and get forward with the ball between the lines. Replace Martinez with Evans for the entire FA cup final, does anyone think we'll look similar? I don't. I reckon City would've found it much easier to pick out teammates between our defense and midfield, and they'd have a lot more success higher up the pitch, simply because we'd have slower players that would need to take out more of a distance as they can't leave space they know they won't be able to close down again. It's just an immense overall drop in quality.
 
CM said:
The injuries excuse is also particularly hollow in a season where loads of teams were affected by them. Newcastle and Chelsea were just as badly affected and both of them managed to finish above us. Chelsea are also held up as a club who have no idea what they're doing, yet many fans are happy to accept finishing below them in the league table.

We've been thrashed by so many average teams and regularly outplayed by many worse than that. We finished bottom of our Champions League group in meek fashion against teams like Copenhagen and Galatasaray who are Europa League standard. I just can't believe one result overrides all of that. Hopefully the directors have more sense than our fans.
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Chelsea have spent what, €1100mill in the last few years?

The Champions League debacle was more down to individual mistakes by Onana rather than overall team performance. If he'd stopped throwing the ball into his own net in every match, we would've comfortably finished 2nd.
 
doubleohseven said:
The problem is whatever 'style' EtH is providing has led to trophies across two seasons. Any new manager could provide a brilliant, innovative style of sumptuous passing but deliver nothing.

This is Ineos' real problem:

How does their guy ensure trophies continue?

I do fear Ineos will appeal for their appointment to be given time, but that really won't wash if they sack a trophy winning manager who succeeded from the off.

Also, if their chosen boss fails, will there be any repercussions at an executive level, or will they be paying themselves millions to fail upwards?

There is a serious danger of us talking ourselves into an Arsene Wenger phase of pretty-passing and 'trophy for fourth'.

Let's see.
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And is the era of ‘control’ and ‘dominating possession’ style going to last forever? City were beaten in two key matches, and the tactics employed against them had at least some features in common. Funny enough, United did much better the Real in that department. City apologists will say it’s because they celebrated 4 in a row too hard. Maybe it was a phase, which will seem dated in a few years?
 
NotChatGPT said:
Chelsea have spent what, €1100mill in the last few years?

The Champions League debacle was more down to individual mistakes by Onana rather than overall team performance. If he'd stopped throwing the ball into his own net in every match, we would've comfortably finished 2nd.
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That’s a big one. Great keeper a big part of the time. And then like Saturday with three minutes to go he goes to playschool levels. One I can’t figure out. He’s improved a lot, I know. Seems a nice guy, I know.
 
hobbers said:
Ineos+Wilcox obviously already decided he deserves the sack. They plan to sack him, presumably still do. That means Berrada and Ashworth also think he should be sacked, because gardening leave or not there's no way they didnt at least sneak their opinions in.

So much for trusting the new structure eh
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I don’t get your last comment. Did you expect them to keep him?
 
If we lost the FA cup he would have probably been sacked yesterday. The fact he hasn’t yet shows that they haven’t made their minds up. They’ve let him go on holiday already before deciding his future.
 
I can’t believe we are almost down to 50/50. What made so many people change their mind? Yes, we won the cup and it was great. But we still endured the worst season in like 35 years and we have (nearly) constantly been outplayed. EtH tactics have been atrocious. Why would you give him yet another season?
 
DJ_21 said:
If we lost the FA cup he would have probably been sacked yesterday. The fact he hasn’t yet shows that they haven’t made their minds up. They’ve let him go on holiday already before deciding his future.
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The decision is made either way. If the decision was to sack him, the only issue they have now is timing.
 
To those saying give him one more year then sack him if it doesn’t work out

he’s now into the final year of his contract. This is where you should be backing him or sacking him. If they are going to keep him on they will have to give him a new contract. Which means if they then sack him a year later it will be a costly exercise
 
Sack this man please, happy with the cup win but anyone who knows and watch football can see that we have not progressed tactically.
We have always known united can play like this against the big teams
 
golden_blunder said:
To those saying give him one more year then sack him if it doesn’t work out

he’s now into the final year of his contract. This is where you should be backing him or sacking him. If they are going to keep him on they will have to give him a new contract. Which means if they then sack him a year later it will be a costly exercise
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That's not how contracts work though. Especially if the club is being restructured with a long-term strategy that overarches the manager, then they can mutually part ways upon the expiration of his contract.
 
Pexbo said:
The decision is made either way. If the decision was to sack him, the only issue they have now is timing.
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The decision was made to probably sack him. The fact he won the FA cup as made them have doubts in their mind. They know if they sack him and bring in someone that doesn’t win a trophy for a couple of years then it will be seen as a failure. ETH has won a trophy each year he’s been here.
 
To the people calling for ETH sack... what's the alternative that we have?

Tuchel? Had worse season than ETH, barely scrambled the league last season mainly due to Dortmund bottling it which never should have happened. His accomplishments resume is lacking with his only notable achievement being the CL, but me personally - I don't care about the CL. It's a cup tournament that anyone can win. Di Matteo has a CL on his resume and I don't think anyone here would argue he is a good manager. This is not even a Mourinho situation whose resume, albeit we now known he was past it, spoke for itself. Titles and cups everywhere, multiple CL's, treble. We're talking about a manager whose only managerial accomplishment is barely fluking a Bundesliga with Bayern of all teams. His style of football is nothing to be inspired by either. Known for setting fire at every place he has worked at before leaving. Do we really want that kind of manager? Let's say we manage to bounce back next season and get a top 4 place which I think is the maximum we're gonna achieve at Tuchel. The season after that is gonna be a 100% disaster given his trajectory. Then we're right back to square one, possibly in a much worse situation than we are now.

Pochettino? Had a worse season than ETH. Finished just 3 points ahead of us with zero trophies. Riding the same high from 10 years ago. Failed at both PSG and Chelsea and although I do consider him a decent manager, is he really an upgrade over ETH? I don't think so. His only notable accomplishment in his entire career is one league title with PSG of all teams. Is this the kind of manager we're willing to throw everything away for?

McKenna - great prospect and one we should be looking for in the future, but as of right now it's way too much of a gamble, one that can fail spectacularly. The jump from Ipswich to United is gargantuan and one very few managers can make. He needs more experience. Sacking him ETH for him would be a mind-bogging decision.

I don't even want to talk about the other names flaunted around like De Zerbi and Southgate, that's just pure self-sabotage. McKenna from all the names listed excites me the most, but he is also by far the most risky and one that can end in a Moyesy 2.0 disaster. Guys, this is not a situation where there's Klopp or Guardiola on the market, there's no exciting managers right now that we can get. At best it will be just a bandaid. Back Ten Hag for another season with the new management and after that we can all make our conclusions. I feel like if we sack him now we'd be making a huge catastrophic mistake and just go back to our usual scouting for the next Messiah, the next Fergie. Well, the next Fergie isn't happening. Never in our lifetime at least. ETH has the resume and reputation to turn it around and I believe with the right transfers next season we'll be a force to be reckoned with. But if we just sack him now, we just go back to where we started - ping ponging the managers in the vain hope we find the next Fergie.
 
Devil77 said:
I can’t believe we are almost down to 50/50. What made so many people change their mind? Yes, we won the cup and it was great. But we still endured the worst season in like 35 years and we have (nearly) constantly been outplayed. EtH tactics have been atrocious. Why would you give him yet another season?
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Because he’s won 2 trophies in 2 years. That’s more than Arteta and Klopp won in their first 2 years. We could bring someone els in that doesn’t win a trophy for 3 years and then the majority people who want him sacked will want him back.
 
DJ_21 said:
The decision was made to probably sack him. The fact he won the FA cup as made them have doubts in their mind. They know if they sack him and bring in someone that doesn’t win a trophy for a couple of years then it will be seen as a failure. ETH has won a trophy each year he’s been here.
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If we're sacking him I'm expecting a final every season minimum. They must be super sure of the next guy
 
davidmichael said:
I’m not going to use this as a stick to beat ETH with in regards to the whole argument on here of whether he has or hasn’t been responsible for a lot of our transfers since joining but this is an interview he did where he says he has control over transfers,

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/sto...g-says-taken-man-united-job-control-transfers

I’ve heard from a few people that the reason De Zerbi fell out with Brighton was he wanted control over transfers rather than the structure and him continuing to coach, ETH had a structure above him with VDS and Overmars and maybe like De Zerbi now ETH had enough of that structure and wanted more control which United gave him and it’s been shown that he shouldn’t have been given that control but then at the same time we had no real structure either.

It’s very clear that Antony, Onana, Martinez, Casemiro, Mount, Malacia, Eriksen, Hojlund, Amrabat and Weghorst were all ETH signings and in a lot of those cases we overpaid because ETH wanted them so much. Of that group you’d say Martinez outside of the injury has been a success, Hojlund has potential to be a success and last season Casemiro and Eriksen did well but the others outside of the last couple of games for Amrabat have been disasters.

I also hate agreeing with Shearer as he’s a massive cnut but he was right in saying where was the cup final performance all through the season ? Injuries can’t constantly be used as the majority of the team that played on Saturday have been there and it was only Varane and Martinez that was different, the tactical set up could have been similar as should the intensity from the players but ETH much like with his transfers refuses to change things tactically unless absolutely forced.

I wanted ETH when he was at Ajax and really believed he’d be the best we’d had post Sir Alex but I was very wrong as he’s been exposed on numerous occasions but managers at much smaller clubs with much smaller resources. I also don’t believe ETH will want to take a step back and go from being manager with his own tactics and control over transfers to being head coach and being told how we play going forward and having the majority of recruitment done for him so I think it’s best for both sides to part on great terms and on a massive high before it ends badly a few months into next season and we have to write another season off.
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I disagree. I think Ten Hag liked the structure at Ajax where he was fed players that suited the style of football they played. He didn't need to have much, if any input. He just trusted the club to provide what was needed.

We don't have that structure and rely on the manager to do their own scouting and identify specific players they want.

His job is to coach and manage the first team. He doesn't (or should not) have time to do anything else. If the club is asking him who he wants, then all he can go off is players he's worked with or seen up close regularly.

We're not signing players because Ten Hag wants them specifically. We're signing them because no one is offering any alternative options.
 
I have a question to those saying “but what are the alternatives out there?”

does that mean you would sack him if there was an alternative that you liked?
 
NotChatGPT said:
Chelsea have spent what, €1100mill in the last few years?

The Champions League debacle was more down to individual mistakes by Onana rather than overall team performance. If he'd stopped throwing the ball into his own net in every match, we would've comfortably finished 2nd.
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How is that relevant when Ten Hag has inherited a team of similar value and has spent about half a billion on it himself?

Onana had a poor Champions League campaign but the entire team was poorly set up. We relied on him saving a penalty at home to Copenhagen to stop us dropping points. We didn't lay a glove on Bayern in the final group game. The entire team collapsed after the red cards against Copenhagen and Galatasaray. 4 points from 6 games is an embarrassing record.

We lost to Newcastle's second string side at Old Trafford in the Carabao. There are countless examples of incompetence over the last 18 months, we need to oust the man responsible for that. And it's not Andre Onana.
 
VP89 said:
If we're sacking him I'm expecting a final every season minimum. They must be super sure of the next guy
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Exactly. ETH has given us 3 finals in 2 years. We’ll probably get to the Europa final under him next year aswell if he stayed.. a new manager will use the settling in as an excuse, even though ETH had a decent first season in England with a 3rd place finish and 2 finals with 1 cup. I’m very confident we’ll be much better and stronger next season now we have footballing people doing all the signings for us.
 
golden_blunder said:
I have a question to those saying “but what are the alternatives out there?”

does that mean you would sack him if there was an alternative that you liked?
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Yes, obviously. And it's not about liking as much as it is about seeing them as a comfortably better option. It's a thin market and there are a few managers who are currently employed and need another season to prove themselves before being less of a punt.
 
I didn't get to see the interview after the FA Cup win, but it was the same old "I couldn't organise the team all season because some players were injured" list of excuses.

I can't see how he can just constantly peddle this as the sole reason we have been leaking shots and showing no style of play all season long.

The repeated blaming of injuries and implying that he can't do anything unless he has a full squad is what really turned me off him as manager.
 
VP89 said:
Yes, obviously. And it's not about liking as much as it is about seeing them as a comfortably better option. It's a thin market and there are a few managers who are currently employed and need another season to prove themselves before being less of a punt.
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Then that confirms that you don’t think ETH is the man for the job. You’re just debating logistics.

*dont mean you specifically just anyone who would be tempted by their ideal candidates
 
DJ_21 said:
The decision was made to probably sack him. The fact he won the FA cup as made them have doubts in their mind. They know if they sack him and bring in someone that doesn’t win a trophy for a couple of years then it will be seen as a failure. ETH has won a trophy each year he’s been here.
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No I disagree with that. If the decision was made to sack him, they would have been clear before the final that winning it would make no difference. They’re not going to flip their decision because of one result.

The only thing that has changed is the optics. They will let the hysteria of the final settle, plant a few stories about how things haven’t been good enough results wise but also on the training ground and in a week or so when people have come down from the win, they will explain that it’s not been an easy decision but the league campaign was not good enough and it’s time for a change.

Either that or they have decided for a while that with one year left on his contract, no stand out candidate, the people who should make these decisions on gardening leave and difficult circumstances around injuries, Greenwood and Sancho - it won’t hurt to let him see out his contract.


What won’t make a blind bit of difference to the ultimate decision is the result on Saturday. There is just no way the new owners and footballing structure are going to make an emotional decision based on one result.
 
golden_blunder said:
To those saying give him one more year then sack him if it doesn’t work out

he’s now into the final year of his contract. This is where you should be backing him or sacking him. If they are going to keep him on they will have to give him a new contract. Which means if they then sack him a year later it will be a costly exercise
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Clauses in a new contract that have a minimum level of achievements needed. But I think if he goes into the new season, he'll need a new contract so he's got the commensurate authority in the dressing room. Those clauses should also not be disclosed to the public. That's how I'd do it. Then again, I'm ETH unless it's McKenna and a continuation of a long-term project.

More important than which one of those two is in place next August is how well INEOS do with the squad building this summer.
 
golden_blunder said:
Then that confirms that you don’t think ETH is the man for the job. You’re just debating logistics.

*dont mean you specifically just anyone who would be tempted by their ideal candidates
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I've said a few times I'd sack if the right manager were in the market. But they're not, and I dont think Ten Hag's ceiling is realized either.

Seeing how he goes next season will either 1) see him realize better potential or 2) see him sacked and us dip into a better managerial market. I'm OK to be patient with it, he's got us back to back cups, it's not like we aren't relevant under him. Irrespective of finishing outside of top 4 he's won two major trophies which is still something big. We're about winning cups here, whilst yes playing in European's elite. He failed to do that for next season but there's a bigger picture at hand.
 
golden_blunder said:
I have a question to those saying “but what are the alternatives out there?”

does that mean you would sack him if there was an alternative that you liked?
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If it's an actual genuine talent on the market like Guardiola or Klopp and we have their guarantee they'd come? Yes. But there is nothing on the market. Even Xabi would be a huge gamble, but the point is moot since he's staying at Leverkusen. I was for sacking Moyes because he was inept at everything and had zero resume. I was for sacking LVG because Mourinho, who was a proven winner and without a doubt the best manager after Guardiola at the time. I was for sacking Mourinho since he crashed and burned, dragging the club with him. I was for sacking Ole because he was in over his head and a genuine talent like ETH, who had achieved at that point some remarkable things, was available. But right now I don't see any manager of United caliber that will be a significant or even a moderate upgrade over ETH. At this point the people advocating for the sack of ETH just want him gone for the sake of it not because they planned what is gonna happen after.

I would agree that this has been a bad season and Ten Hag is at fault for a large part of that, but I think a lot of people are ignoring how abnormal it was in the grand context of things, as well. I don't need to explain how tumultuous United's problems have been off and on the field. And I think ETH's resume, 2 trophies and him achieving more than what was asked in his first season has at least, in my mind, given him enough credit to give him a chance to showcase what he is capable of with a proper footballing structure behind him.
 
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golden_blunder said:
To those saying give him one more year then sack him if it doesn’t work out

he’s now into the final year of his contract. This is where you should be backing him or sacking him. If they are going to keep him on they will have to give him a new contract. Which means if they then sack him a year later it will be a costly exercise
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Surely him being in the final year of his contract makes it easier to keep him on if that's the decision. If they give him another year and it doesn't work out then no need to sack him. Contract has expired. Mutual decision to move on.

Unless he demands a new contract. In that case, also easy to do the mutal decision thing and blame it on failed contract negotiations and part ways.
 
ETH has himself to blame if he gets sacked. He has shown he can organise a team to win games but chose to try and play a more pro active style when we didn’t have the personnel to do it.

I dare say he could have achieved CL football quite handily if he had taken a pragmatic approach when we had injuries and then transparently pointed out to the media - when I have the players I need back - you will see us back on the front foot.

instead he produced some of the most embarrassing footballing displays in my 30 odd years as a fan. If he stays - fine - he knows how to coach, that is clear. But for god sake - let’s stop with this “we are Man Utd” rubbish and rebuild properly.
 
ETH can talk about injuries and for sure Varane and Martinez are a jump in quality.

But playing an extra midfielder and having a 6 that just sits was the big difference maker.

In other words, actually having a midfield.
 
Anustart89 said:
Any new manager coming in on a three-year contract while the club is being restructured is going to face a season of uncertainty regardless of contract length.
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And do you not think that a manager who doesn’t know if he’s coming or going translates poorly to players and their performances over the year? Its a bad idea
 
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