I'm not sure it's even worked for a full 9 minutes to be fair and there in lies the problem. He's been at the club for 2 years and had 4 trasnfer windows, we should be seeing something coming together by now. But in recent games it seems he's finally made the decision to move away from the setup he's insisted on persevering with all season.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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I'm not sure it's even worked for a full 9 minutes to be fair and there in lies the problem. He's been at the club for 2 years and had 4 trasnfer windows, we should be seeing something coming together by now. But in recent games it seems he's finally made the decision to move away from the setup he's insisted on persevering with all season.
I honestly believe Tuchel has the adaptability within games to change things and tactical nous to deal with different opponents, also think he will understand the importance of playing young players at this club.
So to conclude: Ten Hag ball is Oleball but without scoring in the end? Got it.That shot at the end by McT
I didn’t claim everyone wants him gone, just questioning the abuse some get for contemplating it. Not sure that really provides the context I was talking about.
Forums are for discussion so nobody’s trying to stop that, but insults do stop that discussion. I’m not sure it’ll be easier, we’ll have to wait and see. Either way the rebuild will be difficult and perspective will be needed then too.
The front on Garnacho to complain about not getting the pass, as if the thought would have even entered his head if he was in that position.
I think it has to be noted that there is a whole spectrum of footballing styles to choose between pragmatic, deep defensive block and counter, to whatever name you would give to the nonsensical set up that has plagued this season. You can move towards a more progressive style without employing an unfathomably inept midfield shape.
Ten Hag's hoof ball tactics being considered some type of admirable new style is strange to me as well.
Ten Hag's hoof ball tactics being considered some type of admirable new style is strange to me as well.
Yeah it's transitional football. Good if you don't lose the ball and can beat the press, not so good if you lose the ball or the opposition isn't pressing. Hence why we often look completely bereft of ideas.
Doesn't get mentioned much but we rely on long balls over the top and crosses quite a lot. It's pretty old school really, yet many dress it up as some new style of football we shouldn't dare to abandon at this stage. It's percentage football that relies heavily on individualism and physical advantages. It's an issue I had with Ole and why I said early doors that he's taking us nowhere. Same applies here. Wilcox asking Ten Hag to play different football is pointless as he doesn't coach a controlling, possession based game. You might as well hire somebody that does and not rely on your existing coach learning on the job.
Mentioned it a few times but at its height(depth probably more accurate) it felt like modern day Charlie Hughes POMO football, win it and hit the channels for the fast guys to chase.
This is pretty much how De Zerbi plays
I don't actually know what it is, to be honest. At least with Ole, we actually got regular routine wins without conceding a comical amount of shots every single game. I didn't particularly enjoy Ole's style of play, but at least you knew what you were getting.
I've still to hear one decent argument as to what benefit we will have gained by persevering all season, with a setup that clearly doesn't work.
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I would quite like ETH to stay but I don't in a million years think it will happen.
There's a difference between playing them and developing them though.
The first half of the season definitely was not. It was only after Bruno came in January 2020 that we looked good.
When Jose said coming 2nd with Utd was his greatest achievement, I understood what he meant.
The craziest thing that ETH has demonstrated is that we underrated Ole.
This is just a basic counterattack. So, ETH's style of play is basic counterattacks? No wonder we finished 8th.
Also the injuries excuses are wearing a little thin, if you take into consideration the 9 point deficit between top four these are the games that an injury depleted United should be winning given the team would still possess greater quality than the opposition:
Palace (L) - After beating them in the cup the manager reshuffled the winning team, context they were misfiring all season under Hodgson.
Bournemouth (L)
Nottingham Forest (L)
Fulham (L)
Burnley (D)
14 points available, 1 taken.
If the manager adhered to his responsibility the team gets a European spot.
Palace (L) - After beating them in the cup the manager reshuffled the winning team, context they were misfiring all season under Hodgson.
Bournemouth (L)
Nottingham Forest (L)
Fulham (L)
Burnley (D)
14 points available, 1 taken.
If the manager adhered to his responsibility the team gets a European spot.
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He wants to win the cup final, so we are playing more conservative, that’s all. The gane against Brighton was a rehearsal I think.
That's the part where I am on the fence. While it's pretty clear that it's not his favorite approach, he is perfectly able to coach as we saw with Ajax in the league, though it's worth mentioning that Ajax relies a lot on academy players who are developed with that style in mind. Anyway the point is that there is a case to keep him if we don't like the current alternatives but he shouldn't be given much room for improvisation because you can't trust him and he should be evaluated regularly against any possible candidates.
To play this style better we also have to be excellent on the ball. We can play through the press quickly, but lose the ball too often, which is the biggest issue by far we are suffering from.
Patient possession football is easier because it is safer, actually.
Patient possession football is easier because it is safer, actually.
Why did he make Bruno the captain who treats the ball like a ticking time bomb?
well McSauce, Amrabat defo cant play this game. Mainoo probably can. Problem is even when we did play like that (and we did), once we loose the ball it felt like the opponents can just cut through us with no resistance. Not sure what is worse in this team. Our capacity (or lack of) to play a quick passing game, or our capacity to press and counter press.
My understanding is a lot of the commercial deals drop if we're not in the CL. When I tried to figure out if Casemiro was actually just a meh signing in terms of money instead of a bad one based on us getting into the CL, it seemed like 50M a year might not be outlandish for a total figure from all the sponsors in terms of being in the CL.
Let's hope not we were dogshit and got outplayed for most of it.
I don’t agree with that statement. He is first name on the team sheet for me.
We just need to sign about 6 world class players, all of whom will have to perfectly adapt to the team and the premier league, and then we'll be cooking with Ten Hag ball.
I have literally never said Arteta did worse or better.The point is that Arteta each season had gradual progression.
As for the 2nd bolded: We're playing an illogical style that will never work and injuries are just an excuse. It's extremely tiring how some of you continue trotting out injuries.
No team goes through a season injury-free. Cut the nonsense out.
I am trying to find the positives.... I am struggling, guessing you will say bringing through youth, am I right, so who exactly? Garnacho, a teenager bought by Ole for nearly half a million who was on first team fast track from the second he signed! or Mainoo? a player who has been nailed on for the first team for at least 18 months, it would be harder to have kept these 2 out than playing them. So what about Amad? a player who many would argue should have been player or at least young player of the year last season in the Championship and who has sat out game after game whilst Antony has floundered, Kambwalla? who again was bought in for big money and who has only been played as a last resort.... don't get me wrong I take your point that discussion should be objective and balanced, but then that goes for everything.
Truly the majority of the posters on here defending ETH do seem like they have drunk the coolaid... I think some of the reaction is the incredulity of it
I am very much an each to their own, live and let live guy, we can have a discussion, a disagreement, my goal is not to convince you I am right, it is just the debate, maybe we agree on some things, but then we agree to disagree on the rest.
I would also add that every ETH detractor on here does not discount the injuries, the signings, the disruption in the board room, having to deal with Ronaldo, Greenwood and Sancho.... it hasn't been a joy ride, not one sane person would say that it has been, but this is Man Utd, it is not going to be plain sailing, even having a torrid season we are still getting more press that City, Pool and Arsenal combined.... we need a manager that can handle the adversity and adapt not one who goes nuts and decides to abandon having a midfield for 95% of the games.
You know what most managers would have struggled with Utd this season, but the problem is ETH has amplified those problems, he has insisted on trying to create a system which has been impossible to implement and would be even in perfect conditions, it is a vicious cycle, players get blamed for not busting their lungs running back, but they have been demoralised, they do not play in a vacuum, they see the same issues that we do, it breeds discontent, poor attitude and effort, but does ETH shut up shop, get the team solid, starting to feel positive before trying to move things on again, no just keeps banging on the same destructive tactics, it is a truism in football that winning games is contagious, same for conceding easy goals, capitulating when things are not going well... bottom line is nobody, nobody is saying we should have been winning the CL or the Prem, if we finish 8th we finish 8th, but it is the way we have gone about it, it has been embarrassing, and that rests solely on ETH
The injuries excuse you're using doesn't make sense because the underlying metrics say we played closer to a side in 15th place. Even with injuries, we have a side that's better than 15th place. That was the whole point of mentioning those metrics. It was to say that even though we finished in 8th, we actually were lucky to be in 8th which matches what we as fans saw on a match by match basis. You would have more of a point if we actually finished 8th, and our metrics said we were 8th place or 9th place or 10th place. Not 15th. That's too much. Neither Arteta or Klopp had those kinds of underlying metrics during their 8th place finishes.
Again, you mention vague ideas of attacking football and suicide football by other managers. I'm telling you that Ten Hag's football is unlike the other attacking football managers because he doesn't value compactness. Yes, that is why a high line is used. It's to make the pressing that much harder to pass through, resulting in more turnovers and less energy expanded. Even counter attacking managers like Ole and Mourinho value compactness because even if you aren't pressing in an organized manner, you're still making it difficult for the opposition to break down. The goal is to make defending easier, and limit the opposition from getting so much space in attack. This isn't vague.
I'm asking, why would you believe any midfield player can solve our problem when the athleticism required to cover that much distance is unattainable. No side has to cover that much ground. And even people who defend Ten Hag realize that he is not as wedded to possession football as Arteta or Pep. Therefore, how would he coach the side to be as great on the ball to drastically reduce United being found in these defensive transitions that require so much ground to cover from our midfielders?
Even with Bruno running as much as he does, and with Mainoo being as good on the ball as he is, you think there is another midfielder that can be as good on the ball as Mainoo, has the stamina of Bruno, and can cover ground like Onana?
Lastly, why are you using Ten Hag's 3rd place finish as a defense of Ten Hag, when you yourself has stated that this season is very much unlike last season due to Ten Hag being pragmatic last season? The project is pretty much this new style from this season, and if he will be able to find players that make it work, compared to say Arteta implementing his style (finishing 8th), and Klopp (finishing 8th in his 3/4 season). The 3rd place finish is irrelevant at this point.
It's a refreshing feeling that no one in the media knows what will happen to EtH after the FA cup final. I have a feeling that a decision has already been made among the higher ups which will be announced shortly after the game.
How can people forget about this spell? We where like top of every charts for the second half of that season and Bruno looked like the second coming. For the first time in years many of us thought we would have a title shot finally but then Ole-ball imploded and we all know what happened after
People forget how toxic that January was in particular-we lost three out of four games in the league and I'd never seen Old Trafford that aggressive as it was on the home defeat to Burnley. Bruno then signed on the 29th and we didn't lose a single league game for the rest of the season.
So all of the top 8, other than Chelsea and Newcastle got a lot more points than expected...
I think its Tuchel. Done deal.
The near 30% of people who voted to keep Ten Hag, I wonder what it is they've seen in the team's performances, style of play and progression in the last 15 months that make them think Erik is still the man for the job.
Nothing against the man personally but it's clear he's not good enough for the job. And his disastrous signings have landed us with yet another pile of deadwood (as if we didn't have enough already) that the next manager in will have to deal with.
Nothing against the man personally but it's clear he's not good enough for the job. And his disastrous signings have landed us with yet another pile of deadwood (as if we didn't have enough already) that the next manager in will have to deal with.
Just give ETH enough time and he'll become the next SAF. This season was plagued by injuries, otherwise we would've been within a shout for the precious achievement of finishing Top4 to enter a competition that we got promptly knocked out in the group stages.
You see, SAF never had to deal with the kind of injury crisis that ETH went through. He never had to go through chunks of title chasing seasons where he had to play midfielders at CB... Oh he actually did? Well, ETH is not Fergie, despite believing that he will become the next Fergie given enough time at this club.
The metrics are a bit bollocks: we did not finish 15th did we, and could have easily finished above Spurs, Newcastle and Chelsea. How many times did we easily give away a winning position? We were also denied some stone cold penalties.
Of course Ten Hag values compactness. The idea that teams are compact always is not true though, every team gives up space somewhere.
We do know how to play compact, we do it regularly. It makes us less effective in attack though, it is more conservative.
I think Hag came up with a temporary in between style that allows our slower defenders to sit deeper. They cannot defend 1v1 in space. I think our bad games had more to do with sloppy ball playing and lack of aggression, than the tactics.
First season:
If you remember, Ten Hag tried to play his style in the two opening games of his first season and had to abort.
The fact that he got third and the most clean sheets proves that he knows how to set up a team, something that is denied here. The expectation was we would finish somewhere around 6th place.
This season, we got some pieces in place to play Ten Hag’s style, so he went for it. Already one year behind on schedule, he did not want to compromise again on developing the strategy, injuries be damnned.
Look, Arsenal fans lost their nerve with Arteta, but he stayed and succeeded rebuilding a squad with a modern proactive style.
I don’t like the idea that we should go back to ‘being pragmatic’ it would be going backwards. Whether we go on with Ten Hag or get another manager who will develop the squad and playing style, is fine with me.
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