Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[golden_blunder]

Yes which is not intended to happen. If we defend proactively and take care of the ball there is no tennis chaos ball. A smart foul once and a while would help too.

Surely when you’re half a season in in and things are not going as intended, you address them or change things up. You do not sit back and think it’s magically gonna come ok, or be so stubborn and think I’m gonna play this formation regardless of having the right players or not. That’s akin to accepting whatever way the coin falls week on week.
none of the excuses currently going the rounds excuse this type of management

 

[essao]

The lack of succession planning has really been the killer. Fergie tried to retire in the early 00s, changed his mind, then spent the latter part of his career on a rolling contract, yet the club seemed completely blind-sided by his retirement.

Aha!Additional buzzwords for the list that includes 'poor structure','horrendous injury list','new way of play' and so on.One would be forgiven for thinking that the manager is a volunteer worker.He gets paid handsomely to coach and produce effective football,manage injury situations and generally get results that keep the club on an upward trajectory.The buzzwords used to defend this manager are just pathetic excuses-nothing more.For example,poor structure or succession planning cannot be blamed for the manager making lousy substitutions leading to a loss in the dying minutes,or getting schooled by lower league teams.

 

[RedC]

For some reason you read that post and thought multiple factors weren’t considered when assessing the situation - despite the post outlining multiple factors. So much for said ability.

I do understand people reserve the right to discuss “degrees of fairness”, ultimately that’s not a conversation I’m interested in - when it comes to managing Manchester United - Ten Hag has underperformed, as such, the outcome should be clear.

If that's not a discussion you want to have, but you apparently understand why someone would, then why are you referencing those people and more or less saying they don't have a clue? You can ignore things in your ultimate opinion if you want, but don't go around acting like those that don't ignore them are idiots, or don't get the reality of the situation.

 

[DWelbz19]

Liverpool conceded less goals in 16/17 (without Virgil) and 20/21 (long-term injury to Virgil) than United did last season with Martinez, Varane, Shaw, Casemiro...

Oops. Probably won't see a reply to this.

 

[Alex99]

Aha!Additional buzzwords for the list that includes 'poor structure','horrendous injury list','new way of play' and so on.One would be forgiven for thinking that the manager is a volunteer worker.He gets paid handsomely to coach and produce effective football,manage injury situations and generally get results that keep the club on an upward trajectory.The buzzwords used to defend this manager are just pathetic excuses-nothing more.For example,poor structure or succession planning cannot be blamed for the manager making lousy substitutions leading to a loss in the dying minutes,or getting schooled by lower league teams.

I'm not defending him, and the leap you've taken to reach that conclusion is bizarre.

I'm very much for sacking him, I'm just hopeful that the new (part) owners will be implementing something that means we're in a position where sacking a manager isn't actually hitting the reset button.

 

[Maticmaker]

Or both?

There may have been times (have definitely been times) when mistakes over appointments or sackings have been made, timings in particular and luck has played a part, but in the modern era and going forward this gamble has to be reduced.

You mention sackings of LvG, Jose and Ole, you could add Moyes as well, but this was under the Glazer's total control of the club and who had no idea (except to keep the 'cash cow' going) and they either panicked or pandered to those who shout the loudest.... what it didn't involve was proper succession planning, other than perhaps the objective to sell more shirts.

It pains me to admit it, but we need look no further than our neighbours';

Pep Guardiola's appointment was not a managerial risk, and he does not rely on luck.

As far as can be ascertained City's succession planning, which included the harshness of telling the incumbent manager (who was still in with a shout in 4 competitions at this time) and also making it public that he would be let go at the end of the season regardless, it was ruthless, but has been shown to be highly effective.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

Edu was the Technical Director at Arsenal since July 2019. He was working under Raul Sanllehi who was the Head of Football. When Sanllehi got fired in August 2020, Edu was the most senior director with regards to football matters and has remained that ever since. Edu finally got the title of Sporting Director (new role) in November 2022 and the Head of Football role was officially scrapped. But he has de facto been the Technical Director/Head of Football whatever you wanna call it, since August 2020.

Even so, I would say Technical Director would have more involvement on the building of a squad than a head coach. The caveat about the 19/20 season, is that we don't know how much the transfers were input/decisions from Sanllehi or from Edu, or both.

Venkatesham (now CEO) was the one who took over Sanllehi's duties initally until they eventually settled on promoting Edu. Fahmy was their main contract negotiator until leaving in 2021.

Sanllehi and Fahmy must have been blamed for the lack of return on invetsment while Emery was boss.

We don't know the fine details. We just know that Edu has been involved since 2019. That means he would also have to take some blame for duds like Pépé, David Luiz and Willian if we're giving him credit for rebuilding Arsenal. He woud have had some input in the squad planning and the overall strategic plan.

 

[NLunited]

Surely when you’re half a season in in and things are not going as intended, you address them or change things up. You do not sit back and think it’s magically gonna come ok, or be so stubborn and think I’m gonna play this formation regardless of having the right players or not. That’s akin to accepting whatever way the coin falls week on week.
none of the excuses currently going the rounds excuse this type of management

The only reason to keep doing it is because you’ve committed to the strategy and stopping the process would set the club back.

It’s not an excuse but a choice. The injuries are an excuse and a valid one I would say.

 

[MadMike]

Venkatesham (now CEO) was the one who took over Sanllehi's duties initally until they eventually settled on promoting Edu. Fahmy was their main contract negotiator until leaving in 2021.

I don't believe the bolded is remotely true. Unless you mean only the non-football related duties. Which we don't care about because the context of the conversion is who is responsible for the planning and rebuilding the squad. Venkatesham is not a football person at all.

In his 13 years at Arsenal, he has undertaken the roles of Head of Global Partnerships, Director of Global Partnerships and Business Strategy, Sales and Marketing Director, Chief Commercial Director and was most recently Managing Director (2018-2020) and has been CEO for the past three years.
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5168280/2023/12/29/arsenal-vinai-venkatesham-obe/#:~:text=In his 13 years at,for the past three years.

It's all marketing and business titles for 13 years, not a single football director role. But we're supposed to believe he took over the planning and rebuilding of the squad from 2020-2022 while Managing Director?

Also, we literally had the below news when Sanllehi left and Venkatesham was announced (attention on the sub-title in italics)...

Raul Sanllehi: Arsenal head of football leaves club, replaced by Vinai Venkatesham
Technical director Edu and head coach Mikel Arteta heading up their footballing and recruitment direction
https://www.skysports.com/football/...all-leaves-club-replaced-by-vinai-venkatesham

We don't know the fine details. We just know that Edu has been involved since 2019. That means he would also have to take some blame for duds like Pépé, David Luiz and Willian if we're giving him credit for rebuilding Arsenal. He woud have had some input in the squad planning and the overall strategic plan.

Sure, he should definitely take the blame for the duds too. I'm merely saying that it's bizarre to attribute the rebuilding of the squad to a guy with "first team coach" as a title and somehow not to the most senior football director at the club in that time.

 

[pocco]

Exactly. So based on his title alone, he had no involvement in the rebuilding on the squad in the years 19/20 and 20/21 when he was finishing 8th. Which was the whole argument to begin with ("he was getting bad results, but he was rebuilding the club")

He was implementing a good style of football with a team going through a rebuild, whilst integrating youngsters. I was arguing with even Arsenal fans at the time, as well as 95% of RedCafe about this, because I could see his vision. Tell me I'm wrong like they did, if you like, but where are they now? They've overtaken and flown past us in the last 2 seasons, which most on here said wouldn't happen. So yeah, clearly he was doing a good job.

 

[Acquire Me]

I'd scream TOMMY TUCHS in your face.

People are shaking in their pants

 

[MadMike]

He was implementing a good style of football with a team going through a rebuild, whilst integrating youngsters. I was arguing with even Arsenal fans at the time, as well as 95% of RedCafe about this, because I could see his vision. Tell me I'm wrong like they did, if you like, but where are they now? They've overtaken and flown past us in the last 2 seasons, which most on here said wouldn't happen. So yeah, clearly he was doing a good job.

Again, I'm merely arguing that the rebuilding of the squad was not his job or his job's remit. That there were different men with different titles tasked for this job. Obviously head coach/first team manager's (Arteta's) input being taken into account as well.

But yeah his job was to start implementing a progressive style of football, while identifying who from the current squad is or isn't a good fit for that. And that also meant relying on youngsters at the time, who tent to be easier to mould than veterans like David Luiz etc. That obviously creates some short term pain. I'm happy to give him all the credit for putting the right tactical foundations and working ethos in place.

 

[pocco]

Again, I'm merely arguing that the rebuilding of the squad was not his job or his job's remit. That there were different men with different titles tasked for this job. Obviously head coach/first team manager's (Arteta's) input being taken into account as well.

But yeah his job was to start implementing a progressive style of football, while identifying who from the current squad is or isn't a good fit for that. And that also meant relying on youngsters at the time, who tent to be easier to mould than veterans like David Luiz etc. That obviously creates some short term pain. I'm happy to give him all the credit for putting the right tactical foundations and working ethos in place.

Even if he had no input into the squad rebuild (which may or may not be the case), the rest of what you said is part of the rebuild process. He's transformed their style of play and implemented these players.

 

[TsuWave]

If that's not a discussion you want to have, but you apparently understand why someone would, then why are you referencing those people and more or less saying they don't have a clue? You can ignore things in your ultimate opinion if you want, but don't go around acting like those that don't ignore them are idiots, or don't get the reality of the situation.

I think you misread my post.

Degrees of fairness ultimately amounts to nothing when it comes to deciding the course Manchester United should take - in the context of the Ten Hag conversation - in my opinion. Nor do they explain or justify how catastrophic this season was. Me understanding that some people reserve the right to discuss something I consider redundant, doesn’t mean I don’t think they’re engaging in a futile exercise.

People can talk about varying degrees of “fairness”, but ultimately - Ten Hag underperformed.

 

[Blood Mage]

Hopefully by this time next week he will no longer be our manager.

 

[El Jefe]

I don’t even see how anyone can have any belief in him. He’s the opposite of charismatic and doesn’t have the personality that makes fans take a strong liking to him. With LVG, Jose and Ole, they were able to garner fan support that made sense. Ole was a club legend that gave us our finest moment and Jose and LVG were box office personalities and proven winners.

EtH is closer to Moyes, boring and uninspiring.

Many posters that support him still hold some sort of delusional hope that we can look like his Ajax teams. He’s pretty much admitted he can’t and from what we’ve seen on the pitch about half the managers in the league can implement a better style of play than he can.

 

[golden_blunder]

The only reason to keep doing it is because you’ve committed to the strategy and stopping the process would set the club back.

It’s not an excuse but a choice. The injuries are an excuse and a valid one I would say.

He HAS set the club back. His stubbornness is a reason for not making European places this season

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Hopefully by this time next week he will no longer be our manager.

It'll be a bank holiday Monday. If they've decided he's going then it'd more likely be the Tuesday or Wednesday.

 

[Teja]

Here's a very good article that dives into the injury impact without focusing solely on absolute number of injuries. From the Athletic.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/54...ed-injury-analysis?source=user-shared-article

This is actually a really good read and looks past raw numbers of injuries. Number of injuries per 1000 minutes played is still somewhat unsatisfactory and I want to understand exactly how that's calculated so if you have any reading I'd love to see it. I think we did get pretty badly hit by injuries so let's just assume that's ground truth. The wisdom now is to evaluate this season's performance in that context.

Last year, without as many injuries, we were at xGD/90 (6th), npxG/90 (6th), xPts (6th). I think we got lucky last year to finish where we did but for me 6th in underlying metrics was acceptable with that squad. Especially with all of the off field drama with Ronaldo and Greenwood.

This year the data is a lot worse. xGD/90 (16th), npxG/90 (12th), xPts (15th). Even with injuries it's hard to argue that this is acceptable. We have better quality than a 15th placed squad even if half the side was injured.

 

[Redstain]

The more you look at it critically there's no comparison between Arteta and Erik because of their respective ages and experience.

Arsenals trajectory with Mikel has much correlation with his inexperience. He's had to build momentum overtime learning on the job and that's representative of why they are where they are today because he's made adjustments towards reaching the pinnacle of his managerial potential.

Erik by comparison has persisted with a failing system and improper tactical approach because it's what he knows, this signifies that he has less propensity to grow as a manager by comparison.

Erik in the Neville interview alluded to being unable to play a specific style because the club didn't sign Frenkie De Jong. Objectively he's using his experience with the said player to apprehend his former playing style, whereas a younger candidate demonstrates a higher capacity, because they would attempt the said style by what they envision, recruiting the right profile of players to fit the directive. So they are being driven by ideology over experience.

In other words Arteta has a higher managerial ceiling, time doesn't replicate that there are so too many moving parts creating a complexity it cannot be refined to a simplistic concept.

Now because Erik abandoned the approach of what got him the job in the very first instance, he's now being judged on his managerial pedigree (which is results driven) compared to philosophical frameworks (which gives you time).

 

[sugar_kane]

He HAS set the club back. His stubbornness is a reason for not making European places this season

While I agree that we could have made the European spots if he'd been more pragmatic, I wouldn't define reaching those spots as long term progress.

We've made those spots more often than not the past 10 years and we've been going absolutely nowhere as a club. I'd much rather we focus on building a playing style and getting the right players in rather than worrying about European spots.

That's not to say the progress is necessarily there with Ten Hag, that will bear out (or not) next season, but I'm glad at least he stuck to his guns rather than compromising.

 

[Winrar]

The more you look at it critically there's no comparison between Arteta and Erik because of their respective ages and experience.

Arsenals trajectory with Mikel has much correlation with his inexperience. He's had to build momentum overtime learning on the job and that's representative of why they are where they are today because he's made adjustments towards reaching the pinnacle of his managerial potential.

Erik by comparison has persisted with a failing system and improper tactical approach because it's what he knows, this signifies that he has less propensity to grow as a manager by comparison.

Erik in the Neville interview alluded to being unable to play a specific style because the club didn't sign Frenkie De Jong. Objectively he's using his experience with the said player to apprehend his former playing style, whereas a younger candidate demonstrates a higher capacity, because they would attempt the said style by what they envision, recruiting the right profile of players fit the directive. So they are being driven by ideology over experience.

It's another way of saying that Arteta has a higher ceiling, time doesn't replicate that there are so many moving parts and now because Erik abandoned the approach of what got him the job in the very first instance, he's now being judged on his managerial pedigree (which is results driven) compared to philosophical frameworks (which gives you time).

But injuries though. Injuries mean we can't hope to finish above 6th place or set up our midfield not to be constantly overrun by teams in bottom half of the table.

 

[The Firestarter]

While I agree that we could have made the European spots if he'd been more pragmatic, I wouldn't define reaching those spots as long term progress.

We've made those spots more often than not the past 10 years and we've been going absolutely nowhere as a club. I'd much rather we focus on building a playing style and getting the right players in rather than worrying about European spots.

That's not to say the progress is necessarily there with Ten Hag, that will bear out (or not) next season, but I'm glad at least he stuck to his guns rather than compromising.

It would be good if there was a semblance of a style that could actually work.

 

[LordSpud]

He HAS set the club back. His stubbornness is a reason for not making European places this season

INEOS would argue he's saved money by having the player wages drop 25% a week, saving about £1m per week.

Also a year out could be a saving grace. Just concentrate on the domestic competitions and see how it goes.

 

[GreatDane]

INEOS would argue he's saved money by having the player wages drop 25% a week, saving about £1m per week.

Also a year out could be a saving grace. Just concentrate on the domestic competitions and see how it goes.

We've been concentrating on domestic competitions since we were embarrassed in the CL, and that has been shit too.

 

[mu4c_20le]

While I agree that we could have made the European spots if he'd been more pragmatic, I wouldn't define reaching those spots as long term progress.

We've made those spots more often than not the past 10 years and we've been going absolutely nowhere as a club. I'd much rather we focus on building a playing style and getting the right players in rather than worrying about European spots.

That's not to say the progress is necessarily there with Ten Hag, that will bear out (or not) next season, but I'm glad at least he stuck to his guns rather than compromising.

If you completely absolve the manager for the transfers and squad building then yeah, he's been dealt with a tough hand this season and probably none of this was his fault

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

I don't believe the bolded is remotely true. Unless you mean only the non-football related duties. Which we don't care about because the context of the conversion is who is responsible for the planning and rebuilding the squad. Venkatesham is not a football person at all.


It's all marketing and business titles for 13 years, not a single football director role. But we're supposed to believe he took over the planning and rebuilding of the squad from 2020-2022 while Managing Director?

Also, we literally had the below news when Sanllehi left and Venkatesham was announced (attention on the sub-title in italics)...






Sure, he should definitely take the blame for the duds too. I'm merely saying that it's bizarre to attribute the rebuilding of the squad to a guy with "first team coach" as a title and somehow not to the most senior football director at the club in that time.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53790850

Basically, he was Woodward /Arnold. Edu acting as a sort of Murtough type who was expected to be a point of contact between Venkatesham and Arteta.

Your link says that Arteta and Edu collaborated together. That means Arteta was at least half responsible for their recruitment process from when Sanllehi left.

I'm not disputing that he's not a football man. But he was given that role temporarily until they concluded that Edu was worthy of the job permanently.

Edu and Arteta obvioulsy work quite well together. That dynamic is working. There have been less duds since they were guven that influence.

 

[NLunited]

He HAS set the club back. His stubbornness is a reason for not making European places this season

Yes, playing more pragmatic may have gotten us 5th/6th but that was not why he was hired. He came to implement a new style, not scrape results like Mourinho.

 

[The Firestarter]

Yes, playing more pragmatic may have gotten us 5th/6th but that was not why he was hired. He came to implement a new style, not scrape results like Mourinho.

A style that he abandoned after one year and switched to the more, well, pragmatic "transition football " as he labeled it , in an interview. But a lot of people conveniently ignore this actually happened.

 

[golden_blunder]

A style that he abandoned after one year and switched to the more, well, pragmatic "transition football " as he labeled it , in an interview. But a lot of people conveniently ignore this actually happened.

This

oh and if that is his idea of pragmatic..

 

[DJ_21]

INEOS would argue he's saved money by having the player wages drop 25% a week, saving about £1m per week.

Also a year out could be a saving grace. Just concentrate on the domestic competitions and see how it goes.

And by dropping the players wages by 25%. It will help us start a fresh now with players already at the club and incoming players, we won’t offer ridiculous wages like it’s been in the past.

 

[JPRouve]

A style that he abandoned after one year and switched to the more, well, pragmatic "transition football " as he labeled it , in an interview. But a lot of people conveniently ignore this actually happened.

Not really. We were pragmatic last year, this fabled style that some are constantly bringing up has never existed at United and it's not even his style. ETH's career has mainly been about transition football, that's what we were doing last year, that's what he has done outside of Ajax and that's also what he was doing with Ajax in the CL during the great run they had in 18-19. The issue isn't that we are playing transition Football instead of something else, it's that he tweaked the organization of our attacking and defensive transitions and made a mess of it.

One of the biggest issue is that some are imagining a style or an idea that has never been real.

 

[stevoc]

While I agree that we could have made the European spots if he'd been more pragmatic, I wouldn't define reaching those spots as long term progress.

We've made those spots more often than not the past 10 years and we've been going absolutely nowhere as a club. I'd much rather we focus on building a playing style and getting the right players in rather than worrying about European spots.

That's not to say the progress is necessarily there with Ten Hag, that will bear out (or not) next season, but I'm glad at least he stuck to his guns rather than compromising.

Unfortunately the club can't afford to do that. CL football is imperative to any top clubs finances.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

The only reason to keep doing it is because you’ve committed to the strategy and stopping the process would set the club back.

It’s not an excuse but a choice. The injuries are an excuse and a valid one I would say.

Sounds like a sunk cost fallacy to me. Commit to something that isn't working instead of accepting a setback and going back to the drawing board.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

While I agree that we could have made the European spots if he'd been more pragmatic, I wouldn't define reaching those spots as long term progress.

We've made those spots more often than not the past 10 years and we've been going absolutely nowhere as a club. I'd much rather we focus on building a playing style and getting the right players in rather than worrying about European spots.

I see no evidence any of that has actually happened under ETH. We lack a coherent playing style and we brought in an even worse mishmash of players than we already had.

Under just about every conceivable metric, short-term and long-term, we are worse off now than we were before he came in.

 

[LordSpud]

And by dropping the players wages by 25%. It will help us start a fresh now with players already at the club and incoming players, we won’t offer ridiculous wages like it’s been in the past.

Exactly. Really could do with missing out next year too. Get our wages in line.

 

[The Firestarter]

Not really. We were pragmatic last year, this fabled style that some are constantly bringing up has never existed at United and it's not even his style. ETH's career has mainly been about transition football, that's what we were doing last year, that's what he has done outside of Ajax and that's also what he was doing with Ajax in the CL during the great run they had in 18-19. The issue isn't that we are playing transition Football instead of something else, it's that he tweaked the organization of our attacking and defensive transitions and made a mess of it.

One of the biggest issue is that some are imagining a style or an idea that has never been real.

However what people expected and wanted was the style at Ajax. That's why he was a fan favourite for the job.
I am fairly certain he tried to play a sort of possession football in some games in the start of last season. Definitely not in the big games though.

 

[Yagami]

I see no evidence any of that has actually happened under ETH. We lack a coherent playing style and we brought in an even worse mishmash of players than we already had.

Under just about every conceivable metric, short-term and long-term, we are worse off now than we were before he came in.

Yeah, I agree with @sugar_kane there which is why I want us to replace ten Hag. We've already seen ten Hag has a poor eye for talent and he himself admitted this season that he cannot implement the style of football he played at Ajax here. There's just no long term benefits in keeping him because he won't evolve our football.

 

[hobbers]

He came to implement a new style, not scrape results like Mourinho.

And this is why we all want him sacked, because he's failed to do this in any acceptable way.

 

[Marching On!]

Yes, playing more pragmatic may have gotten us 5th/6th but that was not why he was hired. He came to implement a new style, not scrape results like Mourinho.

He's done neither. Not in a positive manner anyway.