Not clearly like that for sure but to make a list of what's been wrong (the post I initially quoted) and not a single on ETH is basically doing that
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Ok but to be fair I don't have an athletic subscription. Nor am I signing up to read one article.
Though we still haven't seen anything that proves whether or not United have had the most defensive injuries concentrated in one area of the pitch, as you said.
We know we haven't had the most injuries overall.
Read posts better. I'm not "absolving him".
I hear ya but I feel looking at absolute numbers is pointless. You can have 5 injuries in the team over a whole season and be in a better position to manage it compared to 4 injuries in one place and recurring with greater frequency.
Its also difficult to gauge the impact of injuries without considering who it is that's injured, the profile of the player that's replacing them etc.
For example, City losing Stones and throwing in Akanji is not as big a hit to them as say, losing Rodri.
The Athletic does a good analysis on this, but before anyone gets in a hissy fit, I'm not trying to completely excuse our manager.
I don't disagree mate which is why I've been trying to get to the bottom of which team's had the most defensive injuries in actual numbers. Both in terms of how many injuries to defenders and how many games they've missed. Newcastle seem to have been hit pretty hard this season also.
All this season it seems to us as United fans we've been hit the hardest with injuries to defenders but this may well not the case. We've actually only been without a recognised LB since mid February we had Reguilon and/or Shaw available for all but 5 matches between August and February. And for the majority of the season we've been able to pick from any or all of Varane, Maguire, Lindelof, Evans and Kambwala at centreback. It's only the last month or so we've had to play Casemiro at CB.
To be fair you don't.
But what is your evidence (this season) that he's actually done well enough to believe in his project past this season? From the past, it seems like your only evidence is that he's switched to a system he's wedded to (being wedded to a style isn't bad in my opinion), and that the concept of managers needing time and structure to bring the right players in, is enough to keep him on the job.
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At this point I am just hoping for INEOS to just come out and tell everyone about the future of the managerial situation. Won't happen up until the final though.
I hope the imaginary ways in which we'll fix ourselves this summer stop being typed up soon.
We are not City, culling this squad is well beyond our capability because we can't pay up the contracts and subsidy for players to play elsewhere really becomes a balancing act pretty sharpish (on the: is worth it, or should we use that player ourselves?)
As much as I'd love a cull, it would take the players in question being willing to leave for less money in pursuit of more playing time... and good luck with that as football is not the noble game where people forgo money for PT some seem to think it is.
Non renewal of some contracts will force the hands of those players with 12-18 months left on their current deals and I'm sure the biggest cull will come by way of frees and last 6 month deals rather than sales en masse.
Unless these new owners are prepared to take the hits, we're stuck with the vast majority of this squad for a while yet. Let's just hope our plan of action is solid and we're not fumbling around trying to sell players late in the window ala last season with Maguire and McTominay.
We are not City, culling this squad is well beyond our capability because we can't pay up the contracts and subsidy for players to play elsewhere really becomes a balancing act pretty sharpish (on the: is worth it, or should we use that player ourselves?)
As much as I'd love a cull, it would take the players in question being willing to leave for less money in pursuit of more playing time... and good luck with that as football is not the noble game where people forgo money for PT some seem to think it is.
Non renewal of some contracts will force the hands of those players with 12-18 months left on their current deals and I'm sure the biggest cull will come by way of frees and last 6 month deals rather than sales en masse.
Unless these new owners are prepared to take the hits, we're stuck with the vast majority of this squad for a while yet. Let's just hope our plan of action is solid and we're not fumbling around trying to sell players late in the window ala last season with Maguire and McTominay.
I've been reasonably sympathetic to him because largely people speak about the injuries and the transfers as if it's not about actual indivdual footballers. It's strange. To me, a transfer fee is just a number (and not one the manager has much to do with). The same people that beat ETH with the 400m stick ignore that at least a third of that didn't play football this year, really. He's not signed that many players, and essentially Malacia, Mount and Martinez didn't play football for us. I also don't get the impression that those posters would care if his transfer spend was 270m or whatever that would be.
It's the same thing in our two biggest problem areas: midfield and defence. Posters are saying: ETH can't create a system to limit chances and goals against. But for me you have to look at the actual footballers available. No LB all season. Last season when we had (checks notes) the 2nd best defence in the league it was built upon Shaw, Martinez and Varane. Who basically haven't played when fit once. So instead you've had a semi-retired Evans, Maguire, AWB and Lindelof/Casemiro. That looks to me like an 8th placed defence. Then midfield - Kobbie's obviously been a bright spot, but he's a child and can only play about 70 mins at the moment. And Eriksen and Casemiro have no legs. And McTominay isn't a midfielder. That's it. I don't see what ETH is supposed to do with that combination of attack and defence, I really don't. Further Rashford, Casemiro, Eriksen - all much worse this season, and then there's Martial.
As a United fan I've never seen a squad with so few first team, first-choice players available to a manager. Again, we're Manchester United, and for a good 3 months of the season we did not have a CF or a LB in the matchday squad.
I honestly don't think any manager would be able to do well in that environment. It feels to me like we're trying to totally change the system, but have only brought in a couple players for that system, while trying at the same time to entirely gut the squad, and had a crippling injury crisis.
I think ETH will go on Monday, but I have real sympathy for whoever comes in if we don't manage to buy a LOT of players. We need at least 2 CMFs, 1 CF, 1 LB, 1 CB and 1 RB. All that are first team ready. The very fact we need that much should tell you that any manager is going to seriously struggle.
It's the same thing in our two biggest problem areas: midfield and defence. Posters are saying: ETH can't create a system to limit chances and goals against. But for me you have to look at the actual footballers available. No LB all season. Last season when we had (checks notes) the 2nd best defence in the league it was built upon Shaw, Martinez and Varane. Who basically haven't played when fit once. So instead you've had a semi-retired Evans, Maguire, AWB and Lindelof/Casemiro. That looks to me like an 8th placed defence. Then midfield - Kobbie's obviously been a bright spot, but he's a child and can only play about 70 mins at the moment. And Eriksen and Casemiro have no legs. And McTominay isn't a midfielder. That's it. I don't see what ETH is supposed to do with that combination of attack and defence, I really don't. Further Rashford, Casemiro, Eriksen - all much worse this season, and then there's Martial.
As a United fan I've never seen a squad with so few first team, first-choice players available to a manager. Again, we're Manchester United, and for a good 3 months of the season we did not have a CF or a LB in the matchday squad.
I honestly don't think any manager would be able to do well in that environment. It feels to me like we're trying to totally change the system, but have only brought in a couple players for that system, while trying at the same time to entirely gut the squad, and had a crippling injury crisis.
I think ETH will go on Monday, but I have real sympathy for whoever comes in if we don't manage to buy a LOT of players. We need at least 2 CMFs, 1 CF, 1 LB, 1 CB and 1 RB. All that are first team ready. The very fact we need that much should tell you that any manager is going to seriously struggle.
Yeah that’s fine, I mean you couldn’t exactly come out and say Ten Haag has done well this season.
It’s just that there always seems to be a “but”. Why does there always have to be a but? Especially when that but is “injuries” (Literally the two teams who finished directly above us had equally bad injuries and the two of the three directly below again had it equally bad). It’s along the lines of “I’m not ‘insert word’ but….”. It’s like this weird way of playing devils advocate when there simply shouldn’t be because it’s been an embarrassing and hideous season and Ten Hag pound for pound has been the worse manager in the league.
And this subject hasn't even been brought up for debate, which is an indication of just how bad the situation is.
Injuries don't explain the asinine midfield set up that persisted all season. With a near to full squad and that same system Utd were still terrible at the start of the season, but he stayed with it despite it clearly not working or fitting the players he had available.
Finally plays a more compact shape from the Arsenal game on and what a shock, things start to look a little better, despite injuries still being a massive problem.
His stubborn insistence on playing a midfield system that could not work with the players available has been a far greater problem this season than the injuries. 8th flatters Utd, 5 or 6 decent performances all season, pretty much the only positive this season is young players developing. System wise there is nothing positive to take from this season.
Deserves to be sacked, if he stays and starts next season with that same midfield set up he won't make it to October.
Finally plays a more compact shape from the Arsenal game on and what a shock, things start to look a little better, despite injuries still being a massive problem.
His stubborn insistence on playing a midfield system that could not work with the players available has been a far greater problem this season than the injuries. 8th flatters Utd, 5 or 6 decent performances all season, pretty much the only positive this season is young players developing. System wise there is nothing positive to take from this season.
Deserves to be sacked, if he stays and starts next season with that same midfield set up he won't make it to October.
Ah yes, Real Madrid, a top 2 team in the world, with an all time great manager they've had for years, lost a few starters. Not really the same as having 60+ injuries and 40 back line combinations(or whatever ridiculous number it was), is it?
Newcastle have more productive/experienced forwards than us, and thus scored more goals than us. They had what I would deem to be a similar injury crisis, how many points did they finish on again?
Ignoring the level of shit that has happened when assessing the season is just outing yourself as either being agenda driven, or someone that is incapable of judging a situation beyond surface level.
OK then you can look at a different season.
In 20/21, Real Madrid had a serious injury crisis. The Athletic wrote an article about it. They had 60+ injuries. This Real Madrid was not a top 2 team in the world, it was the post-Ronaldo years when they weren't as good. The manager was Zidane, who is not an all-time great.
They got 84 points in the league, scored 67 and conceded 28. The previous season they had 87 points, scored 70 and conceded 25. So worse but not much different.
They main point that most ten Hag in fanatics argue is that Shaw and Lisandro missing is the reason why we're so bad. Real were missing three of their 1st choice defensive unit for most of the season. Mendy also missed a some games because of injury.
Bruno and Rashford are a lot more experienced than all of Newcastle's attackers. As I said, Wilson missed a large number of games. Gordon and Isak are both 24 or under and carried their attack. They still managed to score 85 PL goals and finished with a +23GD. We've scored 115 PL goals across our last two seasons. We're on a GD of +1 across our last 52 PL games. There's no excuse as to why our attack is largely dysfunctional.
Plenty of managers adapt to difficult situations.
Ok, so a better example, but still comparing a team that had won an outrageous amount of things up to that point with the manager, with what I can imagine was a much better squad. It's a bit different to a manager in their second season trying to set a style of play at a floundering club with some awful structural issues. There's no question he should have done better, I'm just not sure there's really a manager in existence that could have done a lot better if put in his shoes.
I don't know why I'm even bothering to argue this, as I'm not particularly Ten Hag in, I just think this season was a complete shit show, putting aside his mistakes.
Martinez looked pretty good yesterday but we were still just as shite as ever.
I want Hojlund to play without wingers either side of him. I think the way to unlock him, is to play Fernandes and Amad immediately behind him supplying him. Would love to see ETH play the following on Saturday:
Onana
Dalot
Varane
Martinez
AWB
Casemiro
Mainoo
McTominay (not as awful as Amrabat)
Amad
Fernandes
Hojlund
Bring on Garnacho, Rashford, Eriksen, Antony when we'll be inevitably chasing the game in the 2nd half.
Onana
Dalot
Varane
Martinez
AWB
Casemiro
Mainoo
McTominay (not as awful as Amrabat)
Amad
Fernandes
Hojlund
Bring on Garnacho, Rashford, Eriksen, Antony when we'll be inevitably chasing the game in the 2nd half.
Sorry I don't quite get what you are trying to say here - are you saying that posters are focusing on the sheer amount of injuries we have as a reason why we have been under-performing (therefore it is not ETH's fault)? And in the same sentence saying that posters are focusing on ETH's poor transfer record as a reason for ETH out? These 2 positions seem contradictory.
On the issue of transfer fees - I'm sorry I do not buy that because we have an inept negotiations team this totally absolves ETH of any sort of blame for transfers. He is the manager. Surely his job is balance between improving the standards of the team, meeting expectations of the board and fans, with the resources that are available to him. He has to be informed by the negotiating team that to get Anthony the club would need to splunk €95million, which ETH can then decide that it is simply not worth it and maybe spend the money on 2 other players instead. No, he decided that Anthony is worth that amount of spend, at the expense of signing more players, because he thinks Anthony can be the game changer he needs and a key piece to play the system that he wants. Same goes for Mason Mount. In fact, I think what concerns most people is that out of ETH's signings, the only one that can be considered a success is Martinez. No wonder people are concerned at giving him another season to "build his team" when he has already signed many people who played for him under Ajax or has played in Eredivisie before.
It is true that ETH never really got to play the team that he wants, and we have an abnormally large number of injuries this season. At the same time, ETH is also quite infamous for not rotating his players. He never rotates his team at Ajax. It might be ok for Eredivisie, but the EPL is a lot more physically demanding of the players and I believe a huge part of the non-rotation contributes to the injuries that we are seeing right now. Sir Alex for example, is great at rotating his players and he almost never has the same exact team playing for 2 consecutive matches. I mean, the great man managed to engineer a win over Arsenal with Rafael, Fabio, Gibson and O'Shea in freakin midfield.
While we are still on this topic, isn't a good manager suppose to either buy players to fit the system that he wants, or design a system that makes full use of the players he has at his disposal (as SAF has demonstrated)? What we are seeing right now is that ETH isn't able to do either properly. He seems to want to get our team to play in a certain way but the players as you mentioned, simply do not fit the system. Maguire and Evans are not the fastest of defenders and it is no wonder they hesitate to close the gap between defence and midfield for the fear of being caught by a ball over the top. And then wonder why our midfield has acres of space for opposition to exploit. And it has been like this throughout the entire season without ETH seemingly being able to address this issue. He could either determine that with the players available we have to go back to OGS low block and quick counter attack style, or have the guts like LvG to start promoting players from our academy and play them ahead of seniors as long as they can commit to the system.
This lack of adaptability is what I believe will cost ETH his job.
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This "injuries" excuse is truly pathetic from ten Hag and his acolytes, the only two players who've arguably been out for a long time (due to ten Hag rushing them back) are Martinez and Shaw.
Both were present as we struggled against Newport County, who were in 16th place in League Two at the time.
Ten Hag's utopian dream of a season without any injuries is opium for the fanboys.
Both were present as we struggled against Newport County, who were in 16th place in League Two at the time.
Ten Hag's utopian dream of a season without any injuries is opium for the fanboys.
I was talking about our front line, Rashford is the only one, and he had a shocking season. Garnacho is a child and not a good finisher at this point in his career, Antony is one of the biggest duds the league has ever seen(yes, Ten Hag's fault for signing him), and Hojlund started the season injured, and was unlucky with another injury just when he was getting going. We've been playing midfielders as strikers and shit like that, it doesn't surprise me at all that Newcastle, with an excellent striker and good backup, and some in-form forwards have scored more than us. It is also partly on the manager.
We were a dysfunctional team top to bottom, no question, I just am of the opinion that with better conditions we would score more goals, it's not due to an intended play style.
So if people try to find reasons or rational for poor without it just being the manager not being good enough people are deluded or acolytes? Where’s the room for discussion?
Are all those that want him gone smarter by default? Even if he isn’t the one to say the injuries we’ve had don’t affect performances aren’t being fair. Even if players aren’t out for long the fall off from the 11 that play the football he wants and the replacements are evident.
Nobody trying to provide context has been blindly defending the manager from what I’ve seen but are treated like idiots for doing so. Feels like anything positive he has done is ignored and things that have gone against him amplified. Think most managers suggested would have struggled similarly with the issues he has.
Are all those that want him gone smarter by default? Even if he isn’t the one to say the injuries we’ve had don’t affect performances aren’t being fair. Even if players aren’t out for long the fall off from the 11 that play the football he wants and the replacements are evident.
Nobody trying to provide context has been blindly defending the manager from what I’ve seen but are treated like idiots for doing so. Feels like anything positive he has done is ignored and things that have gone against him amplified. Think most managers suggested would have struggled similarly with the issues he has.
Bruno is an attacker though. He's not a midfielder. Most teams don't play with a #10 anymore, but we still do. His numbers have dropped off under ten Hag. In terms of goalscoring.
I wouldn't call Garnacho a child. He has a child of his own! Haha.
The first 100 games or so of your career are basically your apprenticeship. Garnacho is approaching that number for club and country combined. ten Hag has overused him this season. He's at risk of burnout. Ole used to overplay Rashford.
Garnacho is a goal every 6 games wide player at the moment. He needs to get that number closer to 4 next season.
If I saw you in person, you'd hear what I really think of you.
Kin ell, Billy big bollocks here
Kin ell, Billy big bollocks here
I'd scream TOMMY TUCHS in your face.
To be fair between August and Mid February when Shaw got injured again. We had 1-2 recognised left backs available in I believe in every match day squad but 5 between Shaw and Reguilon.
Those in charge of the sacking decision only need to review three matches:Coventry,Newport and relegated Sheffield United.A Manchester United manager worth his salt should be able to navigate matches involving non-Epl teams without too much fuss,even in the middle of an njury crisis.Even with the poor structure considered.Looking at the stats in these matches,and the unnecessary signing of "unplayable"Anthony for a prince's ransom, should make the decision very easy.
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I reckon you’d get your Dad on me.
Kevin De Bruyne, Martin Odegaard, James Maddison, Cole Palmer are not #10s? I learn something new every day on this forum...
I think people get frustrated because some of the arguments are shifting goalposts.
Earlier in the season the argument was that X/Y/Z players were needed in order to play well. Wait until those players come back and things will be different.
But then some of those players returned and United weren't really much better.
Then the argument shifted to a less concrete one: injuries are 'disruptive' and thus the team can't play well regardless of who's available.
There are countearguments to either of those but they are met with "well the situation is not the same." No situation is ever the same.
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There is plenty to criticize without having to make stuff up.
KDB, yeah. He's kind of a hybrid between an #8 and a #10.
Ødegaard and Maddison often play deeper in a 4-3-3 compared to a 4-2-3-1, which we often use. They still get forward. But have to help with the buildup.
Palmer has played more games at RW than as a #10. He might play centrally long term.
4-3-3 is the best formation for modern football. Most teams have moved away from a classic 4-2-3-1. Big emphasis on pressing and running.
City: 3-2-4-1 formation
Arsenal: 4-3-3 formation
Liverpool: 4-3-3 formation
Aston Villa: 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 formation
Spurs: 4-3-3 formation
Chelsea: 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 formation
Newcastle: 4-3-3 formation
We need to play a flat 3 in midfield and get rid of wingers as attackers.
His longest unbeaten run in two fecking seasons is 6 PL games. That is utterly atrocious. Glasner just managed 7 games unbeaten with Crystal Palace. Moyes managed 6 this season at West Ham. Bournemouth managed 7 unbeaten this season. Newcastle managed 7 too. It shouldn't be hard for our club to go on a fairly long unbeaten run, Jose and Ole managed it.
He's just not very good. As someone else said, a busted flush. Time to move on.
He's just not very good. As someone else said, a busted flush. Time to move on.
Excuse me?
I wouldn't call Arsenal's system 4-3-3. Their 3 midfielders with the most appearances are Odegaard, Rice, Jorginho. The 4th is Partey. This is clearly a system with 2 pivots and 1 AM/#10. Especially since mid season, when Havertz moved to ST.
Palmer indeed started as RW but finished the season as an AMC/#10. Finally I don't think Maddison plays as deep as Sarr, Bentacur or Bissouma either, the other Spurs midfielders. He's clearly the AM among that set of midfielders and with higher average position on heatmaps.
Only Newcastle and Liverpool play a more solid 4-3-3 from the top 8 clubs. That's a very far cry from "only we do it".
I disagree. 4-3-3 is their basic shape. It can change depending on the phase of play.
It's usually Rice and Ødegaard in front of Jorginho who anchors. Rice gets forward a lot. Partey has played some games since returning.
It's just a fallacy at this point. Of course we will be better with better players, that goes for any team. But even when they have been present, the overriding structure of the team has been the same, and we still concede a lot of chances.
I heard Eddie Howe talking about their injuries recently and he was saying that it's not an excuse and that they've took a situation and made the least out of it too many times this season. I think that sums us up, although our coach is too egotistical to ever say anything like this. We've not been dealt an ideal hand (but no different to many other clubs in the league), but we have made absolutely nothing of our situation. I mean, we've missed 2 defenders for most of the season and the issues up front are being blamed on this. We've had our first choice attack for most of the season but it has looked disjointed and set up to function in an individualistic way. There's no excuse for us not cultivating a better attacking game, even if the personnel weren't there in defence.
I didn't make anything up.
There's no point even trying to converse with some people still trotting out that line.
You'd think we're the only side in the league to suffer injuries.
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