Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Nah mate, my dog has more important things on his mind.

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Dog looks uncomfortable, like he's there against his will. There was a dog that went missing 2 weeks ago, you wouldn't know anything about that would you?
 
Huh? Explain yourself now. We've had far more decisions go against us this season than for us so I would argue we could've had more points actually.

We've really only had the Onana massive one in the first game where he should've had the red card that's actually gone in our favour.

We've had penalties not given, had penalties given against us that weren't pens in the weeks prior and after, red cards for stuff other players didn't even get booked.

I think people just have blind hatred towards the manager at the moment which is fine, I'll let them sulk for now but they need to get back on board next season
Every fanbase thinks they've been screwed over by the refs, I'm not sure that's actually been the case (Newcastle should have had a penalty yesterday for instance), but in fairness I think he's talking about our results compared to performances (actual points to expected points) rather than us getting favourable calls from officials.
 
Where would they be today if they had sacked Arteta then?

We don't know - for all we know they would have won the league last season if they'd sacked him - I mean we're just saying random stuff, right?

What we do know is that a sacking was justifiable then, as it is now for Ten Hag. There's no evidence that the same turn of fortune will happen for United, in fact, most metrics suggest otherwise - including the fact that Arteta is an outlier - which you know, is not the norm.
 
This is a key point for me. Arteta clearly had a very fixed idea of what he wanted to do and successfully built a system (although with the assistance of a better structure than Ten Hag has enjoyed) around players who could do it. Arteta must have had a hand in that in terms of identifying players.

I personally have very significant doubts, based on the poor recruitment so far, whether ETH can do that. More so, I think giving that option to a manager with a single year left on his contract and risking him buying more players the next manager may not want.
Arteta finished 8th, 8th, 5th before he got second and outspent everyone in that time bar darth Pep his old master. The real difference is he was basically given complete carte blanche with that squad and the biggest issue had was probably Auba who was probably about 1% of the Ronaldo drama alone. When he was clearing it out and playing some ok youth players (remember Smith-Rowe etc.) a lot of the football was all over the place but he came in around the same time as Edu and they've clearly worked ok together. They pay big fees but they haven't seemed to hit any huge duds yet.
 
In fairness our squad isn't comparable to theirs either, there's no point in making a comparison in terms of the performance of the teams when pretty much all of their players are better than ours. If Tuchel had deliberately decided to play a system all season that doesn't make any sense and had no chance of working then that would be more of a comparison.

I don't know what you're saying here. A simple statement was made that underperforming in the manner Ten Hag has, would most likely get him booted at most clubs of similar stature. The rebuttal for said statement was "b-but Tuchel" (Bayern has already released a statement saying was leaving at the end of the season, btw - despite rumors/reports of a u-turn). I simply said Tuchel finishing second, 5 points off of an unbeaten team, and knocked out of CL semis - is not the same as finishing 8th, negative GD, and last in a CL group with Copenhagen and Gala.

I don't think even most United fans were expecting a title challenge this year, which is further corroboration for how badly Ten Hag has failed.

Yes but you're not looking at the big picture. This is who we are at the moment. And if we start sacking the manager all the time we'll just end up another Everton/Watford/Burnley.

What? Kinda scary that you think that actually makes sense. United is renowned for holding on to managers far longer than they should, and has underperformed considerably when compared to clubs of similar stature that change managers relatively frequently. For reference:

I mean we have fans who somehow believe that 6 managers in 10 years is a lot or too much.

People should remember that during the same period of time Bayern had 8 different managers(including interims), Real Madrid had 6 different and 7 in total, Juventus had 4 different and 5 in total. Both Milan team have had 10 different managers. Napoli have had 7 different managers. The point being that United are arguably the club that underachieved the most and one of the key issue is the club reluctance to change things quickly which as far as I know is not an issue for Ineos Sport.
 
We don't know - for all we know they would have won the league last season if they'd sacked him - I mean we're just saying random stuff, right?

What we do know is that a sacking was justifiable then, as it is now for Ten Hag. There's no evidence that the same turn of fortune will happen for United, in fact, most metrics suggest otherwise - including the fact that Arteta is an outlier - which you know, is not the norm.

I once bought a house and then paid a builder to knock it down and build a better one. Now I live in a nice house but what if instead I had sacked him for knocking it down. Would changing builders have achieved anything except delay and a slightly different house?

How do you know Arteta is an outlier? Because he succeeded? That's circular logic.

ETH won't survive the summer, that's not the issue. The issue is that we as a fanbase are going to turn on the next guy and the next guy while this slow process of actually building a house grinds through. Managers see that, so how can you expect anybody good to come?
 
I once bought a house and then paid a builder to knock it down and build a better one. Now I live in a nice house but what if instead I had sacked him for knocking it down. Would changing builders have achieved anything except delay and a slightly different house?

How do you know Arteta is an outlier? Because he succeeded? That's circular logic.

ETH won't survive the summer, that's not the issue. The issue is that we as a fanbase are going to turn on the next guy and the next guy while this slow process of actually building a house grinds through. Managers see that, so how can you expect anybody good to come?
TBH I'd question your judgement, why not just buy a a better house in the first place :D
 
I once bought a house and then paid a builder to knock it down and build a better one. Now I live in a nice house but what if instead I had sacked him for knocking it down. Would changing builders have achieved anything except delay and a slightly different house?

How do you know Arteta is an outlier? Because he succeeded? That's circular logic.

Except the builder isn't being sacked for knocking it down.

How many Arteta like turn-arounds are you able to point to?

ETH won't survive the summer, that's not the issue. The issue is that we as a fanbase are going to turn on the next guy and the next guy

Yes, people turn on underperforming managers, they are sacked and another manager comes in.
 
I don't know what you're saying here. A simple statement was made that underperforming in the manner Ten Hag has, would most likely get him booted at most clubs of similar stature. The rebuttal for said statement was "b-but Tuchel" (Bayern has already released a statement saying was leaving at the end of the season, btw - despite rumors/reports of a u-turn). I simply said Tuchel finishing second, 5 points off of an unbeaten team, and knocked out of CL semis - is not the same as finishing 8th, negative GD, and last in a CL group with Copenhagen and Gala.

I don't think even most United fans were expecting a title challenge this year, which is further corroboration for how badly Ten Hag has failed.



What? Kinda scary that you think that actually makes sense. United is renowned for holding on to managers far longer than they should, and has underperformed considerably when compared to clubs of similar stature that change managers relatively frequently. For reference:
I'm saying we're not a similar stature currently and haven't been for over a decade, if we're judging manager's by the same standards as there are at Bayern then no one who could potentially be our manager will come out of that looking good because at best our squad is a contender for 4th while they have one of the best teams in Europe. The failure is that we've been a mess and the manager hasn't even tried to fix it for a full season, not that we're not challenging for a title or even making top 4.
 
I'm saying we're not a similar stature currently and haven't been for over a decade, if we're judging manager's by the same standards as there are at Bayern then no one who could potentially be our manager will come out of that looking good because at best our squad is a contender for 4th while they have one of the best teams in Europe. The failure is that we've been a mess and the manager hasn't even tried to fix it for a full season, not that we're not challenging for a title or even making top 4.

United is of similar stature, and should be of similar ambition. I'm not arguing we have a squad of similar quality, hence "most United fans weren't expecting a title challenge this year, which is further corroboration for how badly Ten Hag has failed."

Had United fought for 4th, played decent football and the GD weren't in overdraft. The poll and conversation in this thread would be dramatically different. United is currently 11 points off of Aston Villa.

Trying to use Tuchel as rebuttal to the statement that Ten Hag would have been sacked at most clubs of similar stature, makes no sense.
 
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United is of similar stature, and should be of similar ambition. I'm not arguing we have a squad of similar quality, hence "most United fans weren't expecting a title challenge this year, which is further corroboration for how badly Ten Hag has failed."

Had United fought for 4th, played decent football and the GD weren't in overdraft. The poll and conversation in this thread would be dramatically different. United is currently 11 points off of Aston Villa.

Trying to use Tuchel as rebuttal that Ten Hag wouldn't have been sacked at most clubs of similar stature, makes no sense.

I think squad quality isn't the issue at United. Ten Hag, Antony, Casemiro, Varane, Sancho, Martinez, van de Beek were very good signings at the point of their announcements, IMO, and many players with a longer history such as Rashford, Garnacho, Shaw, Bruno or Eriksen proved that they are capable of playing football at a very high standard. Yet with a few exceptions, all of them underwhelm. There has to be a root cause for why so few players and managers fulfill their potential and until you've solved that problem, it won't really matter who you bring in. A player who currently plsys well for Bayern will most likely eventually be a shadow of his former self after joining United.
 
Huh? Explain yourself now. We've had far more decisions go against us this season than for us so I would argue we could've had more points actually.
Lucky in regard to xG/xGA/xPoints, I didn't think about referee decisions here.
Bayern is underperforming all three which can be classified as being unlucky, Leverkusen is (massively) overperforming all three. I don't want to class Leverkusen's title as undeserved, because they deserve it for pushing through and enforcing their luck in every match while Bayern has given up in some when they were unlucky to begin with, but I still think it's fair to mention.

United on the other hand is slightly underperforming its xG, but massively overperforming its xGA/xPts which is something you can call lucky.
 
:lol:

Been saying it for years
I was actually tempted to tag you in my reply originally :lol:

Honestly though, it's the fickleness that winds me up more than anything else. I've long resigned myself to the fact that a good chunk of the fanbase will be the "manager can do no wrong" types. Those fans don't annoy me as much anymore - the ones who do are the ones who quickly change their minds after one half-decent performance or a short boilerplate speech from the manager. In the blink of an eye, an entire season of shit is just... forgotten.
 
The issue is that we as a fanbase are going to turn on the next guy and the next guy while this slow process of actually building a house grinds through. Managers see that, so how can you expect anybody good to come?

Every top club in the world turns on managers when they fail and that doesnt stop the next one jumping into the hotseat, does it?

If this is building a house then what Ten Hag has done this season and in 2 summer transfer windows is take a wrecking ball to the framework and add thermite to the foundations.
 
I'd need to get Arsenal fans opinions on this but i'm pretty sure there was a very vocal segment of their crowd that wanted Arteta out after the two 8th place finishes and that it wasn't immediately obvious what his game plan was at times- with Klopp on the other hand it was obvious from day one ("heavy metal football", manic pressing etc). People seem to be rewriting history a bit with Arteta but maybe I'm in the wrong here.

At any rate I've always maintained that if EtH is sacked he can have few complaints at this stage but I keep seeing this 'he has no plan' stuff when there is a plan, it's just a very very risky, almost suicidal plan of overloading the opposition but leaving a lot of space for counters. He said quite clearly in that interview with Neville that he doesn't want to go back to the pragmatism of last year which seems wrong to me, but it's still a plan for the future- just a very stubborn one which will probably cost him his job.
 
Those fans don't annoy me as much anymore - the ones who do are the ones who quickly change their minds after one half-decent performance or a short boilerplate speech from the manager. In the blink of an eye, an entire season of shit is just... forgotten.

Lots of people just have terrible memories, and if you have a poor memory you've no choice but to live in the moment. They genuinely do not remember how they felt watching the second half and ET of the FA cup semi final. Or what it was like getting dominated by Brentford a few weeks prior. Or getting 3-0'd by Bournemouth in december. Or just before that the hideous capitulations against Copenhagen and Galatasary. All that matters is we got a win against Newcastle and they saw him pandering to the fans in the stadium.
 
For me the calculus is simple. If there is a proven substantially better option that ten Hag then we must be ruthless in upgrading to that better option. But no such man appears to exist at this time.
 
For me the calculus is simple. If there is a proven substantially better option that ten Hag then we must be ruthless in upgrading to that better option. But no such man appears to exist at this time.

Someone who can do better than an 8th place finish after spending upwards of 400m? There are plenty of options who can do that. All our previous managers did better than that, even the much maligned Moyes. This should be easy.
 
For me the calculus is simple. If there is a proven substantially better option that ten Hag then we must be ruthless in upgrading to that better option. But no such man appears to exist at this time.
I use a similar logic for players. We all want to clear out certain ones like Antony and AWB, but unless there is a proven substantially better option that we can actually afford, we're probably better off keeping them.
 
I once bought a house and then paid a builder to knock it down and build a better one. Now I live in a nice house but what if instead I had sacked him for knocking it down. Would changing builders have achieved anything except delay and a slightly different house?

How do you know Arteta is an outlier? Because he succeeded? That's circular logic.

ETH won't survive the summer, that's not the issue. The issue is that we as a fanbase are going to turn on the next guy and the next guy while this slow process of actually building a house grinds through. Managers see that, so how can you expect anybody good to come?

Because managers believe in themselves and that they can make a success given the resources we can throw at them. Every club with high expectations sacks on failure, why it has to be endlessly debated on here is mental.

It's not even that we don't adjust expectations, we haven't sacked a manager since Fergie who hasn't deserved it. This debate might make sense if we were sacking ETH for finishing 4th and not progressing but we're 8th.

The next manager if he finishes 5th next season won't be hounded for the sack, nor would he be if he then made 4th the subsequent season. A manager simply has to convince the players, fans, owners that progress is being made. That's it.
 
I was actually tempted to tag you in my reply originally :lol:

Honestly though, it's the fickleness that winds me up more than anything else. I've long resigned myself to the fact that a good chunk of the fanbase will be the "manager can do no wrong" types. Those fans don't annoy me as much anymore - the ones who do are the ones who quickly change their minds after one half-decent performance or a short boilerplate speech from the manager. In the blink of an eye, an entire season of shit is just... forgotten.

That is modern sport for you. It is all about last game and about bantz on twitter ect. People will arque for few hours and then move on some other match. And honest to God I believe that lot people even doesn't watch the games.

We are in downhill mode since that Liverpool game, probably worst season by big club* in the last 20 years across top 5 leagues. And people wants him to stay.

*chelsea can feck off same as city.
 
I think squad quality isn't the issue at United. Ten Hag, Antony, Casemiro, Varane, Sancho, Martinez, van de Beek were very good signings at the point of their announcements, IMO, and many players with a longer history such as Rashford, Garnacho, Shaw, Bruno or Eriksen proved that they are capable of playing football at a very high standard. Yet with a few exceptions, all of them underwhelm. There has to be a root cause for why so few players and managers fulfill their potential and until you've solved that problem, it won't really matter who you bring in. A player who currently plsys well for Bayern will most likely eventually be a shadow of his former self after joining United.

Or maybe United has more than one problem, and managerial and squad quality are part of said problems? There isn't like a law written somewhere that multiple things can't be addressed at the same time. And of course whoever we bring in will matter - I don't even know why people say that it wouldn't, weird stance.
 
The sensible thing to do is keep him and let him have a season with a fit defence - start the squad refresh with Ineos people in charge and assess him next summer after a (hopefully) less freakish year. Unfortunately most people here don’t have enough patience for that. As Ratcliffe himself said, walk to the right solution instead of running to the wrong one.
Thats suicidal not sensible
 
But how do you as fans know the difference? I would trust Jason Wilcox's opinion over my own.
We don't know, that's why it is sensible to form the opinion based on probability. It is not very probable, with everything we have seen, that giving Ten Hag more time will have an Arteta-like outcome.

Obviously the people behind the scenes will have different information available and they are after all the ones making the decision anyway.
 
We are not a serious fanbase

I flicker between being amused and being frustrated by our bizarre fanbase. It wasn't even a particular strong performance either. Newcastle had many decent chances last night and really should be disappointed not to come out with at least a draw.

Hopefully only 2 more games to suffer through.
 
I said it against Arsenal and it's the same after last night, if he parked his pride and played this more defensive structure earlier, we'd be better off.

We just don't have the players to play the attacking way he wants, especially during the injury crisis. I just wished he realised that earlier.
I think it's telling that he didn't....
 
Or maybe United has more than one problem, and managerial and squad quality are part of said problems? There isn't like a law written somewhere that multiple things can't be addressed at the same time. And of course whoever we bring in will matter - I don't even know why people say that it wouldn't, weird stance.

Possibly. I'm just saying that some of those players were finished and battle proven products and others among the hottest prospects in Europe. Many of them are barely recognizable anymore. So it doesn't make too much sense to me to compare the quality they show right now with that of a team like Bayern. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the current United players would look extraordinary at Bayern, especially somebody like Casemiro, Bruno or Rashford. I think the quality of your team is fine in principle. But you'd probably still be best off to part ways with many generally good players because you and they need a fresh start.
 
When a manager gets sacked we still feel bad even if it's the right decision. It's like blowing a puppy's face off with a shotgun. I mean, sure, it's normally really easy to do but imagine if that puppy gave you a speech moments beforehand about begging teams to win and saying 'heuh?", whilst sounding more and more like an extra in District 9 as he went on? I don't know about you but I'd take a few extra seconds before finally splashing that little doggos brains against the barn wall.

Bascially what I'm trying to say is that we're too nice.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Second time.

I'm eating toasties, and you've made me splutter. You're a mad man!
 
But how do you as fans know the difference? I would trust Jason Wilcox's opinion over my own.
And they never suggested they had any faith in him. If he stays, it's only because we can't find someone else. What does that tell you about him?
 
I flicker between being amused and being frustrated by our bizarre fanbase. It wasn't even a particular strong performance either. Newcastle had many decent chances last night and really should be disappointed not to come out with at least a draw.

Hopefully only 2 more games to suffer through.

Yeah people acting like last night was some sort of revelation instead of just a good watch with the youngsters carrying us.

Embarrassing really. Have some fecking pride as supporters. People being worried about “turning on the next manager” when THATS WHAT YOURE SUPPOSED TO DO when incompetence is shown. This culture of “support everyone no matter what and trust in the lads” is just a great way to continue being the biggest disappointment in the footballing world. People need to relearn some proper standards.
 
Arsenal was sitting in 15th at Christmas in 2020

Yeah, they had 17 points after 15 games and a -4GD. Which equals to 1.13 PPG. Arsenal then took 44 points from the next 23 games. Which equals to 1.91 PPG.

ten Hag was on 27 points from 15 games with a GD of 0 this season. Which equals to 1.8 PPG. United then took 30 points from the next 22 games. Which equals to 1.36 PPG.

Arsenal were in Europe until late that season. They made it to the semi-finals in Europe. So even though they had midweek distractions, they still improved after Christmas.

We went out of Europe before Christmas and got worse as the season went on. We went from a GD of 0 to a GD of -3

That's how bad this season has been. Arsenal's 8th place season was better. The only way this season can shade it is by winning The FA Cup.

They lost less PL games and finished with a +16GD.
 
But how do you as fans know the difference? I would trust Jason Wilcox's opinion over my own.
We don't know but based on the data that we have we can say it's very unlikely. Wilcox is more qualified than any of us but would you trust him if his decision was Southgate? A lot of ETH in posters say they trust what INEOS decide to do... unless it's a manager they don't want, like Southgate.
 
I flicker between being amused and being frustrated by our bizarre fanbase. It wasn't even a particular strong performance either. Newcastle had many decent chances last night and really should be disappointed not to come out with at least a draw.

Hopefully only 2 more games to suffer through.

There are lots of fans who only take the result into consideration and then base their opinion on that.

Newcastle had 55% possession, 21 shots (16 inside the box), 6 big chances, hit the post twice, had one cleared off the line, and were robbed of a penalty. 2.37 xG.

They accumulated 1.91 xG from open play compared to our 0.93 xG. Fairly even from set-pieces.

Most teams will win at OT if they produce a similar performance. We were clinical for a change. We had 2 big chances and converted 1 of them. They missed 5 of their 6.

It reminds me of when we beat West Ham 3-0 and everyone thought we dominated. That game was better than last night. It's a good result. But it wasn't a strong overall performance.
 
There are lots of fans who only take the result into consideration and then base their opinion on that.

Newcastle had 55% possession, 21 shots (16 inside the box), 6 big chances, hit the post twice, had one cleared off the line, and were robbed of a penalty. 2.37 xG.

They accumulated 1.91 xG from open play compared to our 0.93 xG. Fairly even from set-pieces.

Most teams will win at OT if they produce a similar performance. We were clinical for a change. We had 2 big chances and converted 1 of them. They missed 5 of their 6.

It reminds me of when we beat West Ham 3-0 and everyone thought we dominated. That game was better than last night. It's a good result. But it wasn't a strong overall performance.
I suppose being able to field a left back, right back and two center backs helps too.
 
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